To the deeply religious who feel god has made a change in their lives... answer this

Originally posted by pikypiky
Hmmm. The word, paradox, came to my mind earlier this afternoon. In all, the photo and this thread were allowed as lessons to each and everyone to choose a path wisely with the best possible effort to do ‘right’ things in life while still alive in this insane world.

It’s not why god couldn’t save the child. It’s why the child couldn’t save the man (the photographer) from himself, his failure to make the right choice, right then and there – by the saving of a life (the child) or rather ultimately saving his soul.

Wow, this is but my very quick but profound 2 cents regarding ‘testing of one’s faith’. (Now, I’ll duck, cover and hide from the onslaught of tomato being thrown in my general direction.)

Don't know if I completely agree but I likes! It seems that to even begin to understand anything in this world, you have to also understand that anything is possible. This could very well be one of the many possibilities with this scenario. It seems that one scenario like this probably holds hundreds of lessons, not only for the kid, the photographer and the people around, but now all of us, all those who just see the pic without any history of it, etc... Lots of lessons for everyone, but are we smart enough to learn from them, or even see them all for that matter.


JPT

I believe that humans put too much into the thought that dying is simply the end, and is the worst thing that can happen to themselves. Perhaps all of this has happened for a reason. The photo is incredibly shocking, and has become famous. This single photo could have changed many things such as inspiring many people to contribute to charities etc.

This is my opinion. Say the photo wasn't taken, and the child survived. He might live his entire life in complete poverty and live miserable. But instead, the child passed on, and is living in the afterlife. Now I'm not sure of what I think of the afterlife, but i'd like to believe that it is a place of no pain or suffering. And because of this, many more children have survived and lived successful lives, because of the actions taken by people who have viewed this photo.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Firstly, drop the stupid act. You accuse me of lying because I did not quote a verbatim quote from you saying what I did, but you are using the exact same logic. I said that you are saying that without the Bible, people don't know the difference between good and bad, and you are using your creator as a substitute for the Bible.

Bible/creator, it's the same principle, without EITHER of these, you are saying the exact same thing I've just accused you of, just with different terminology.

So drop the whole strawman/lie accusations. It's getting friggin' old and I'm tired of hearing it. You are missing the whole points I'm laying out because I didn't use a verbatim quote.

Your equation, Bible or not, still fits the creator in there, so, DROP THE FRIGGIN' ACT. Quit trying to twist your meanings around to save face. I just don't get how you cannot get it, therefore I have to assume you do, which makes you the liar here.

It's ok to take out the Bible in this argument but not the creator? Give me a break.

This whole 'repeat what I say verbatim' argument hold no water, and instead of debating what you're saying, you'd rather debate what your words are.

And it's not propaganda, like I said, you are confusing atheists with humanists. There's a difference, but you keep on repeating the same argument. Like I said, DROP THE ACT.

And does the origin of the word 'charity' really matter? If religion DID beget charity, what about the secular charities? Did religion beget those too? Look at the rates at which they are popping up with the rate of growing atheists in the world. Did you just ignore that small list I wrote on my last post? Choose to ignore that section to show that it's not just religion that begets charity, but the want to help others? What, am I writing for my health?

If there is no absolute moral standard and man just makes it up. Then anything goes as long as we agree. Without an objective moral standard any objection to evil is just an opinion. But common sense tells us right and wrong is different from preference. Because morality is absolute. Not relative.

You are saying the exact same thing here 'Oh, but it's not VERBATIM', pffft. Your equation STILL fits a creator in there and says that that is what creates absolute morality (using your last post too, just so you don't get confused), and without the 'creator', or the 'absolute morality he incribes', man would be lost. And no, I'm not going to have this verbatim argument again with you, drop it.

And apparently, this is a 'moral absolutism' vs. 'moral relativism' debate. Saying 'morality is absolute' is an opinion, not a fact.

Here, let me see if I can get this whole debate down:

1) You are separating the Bible and the creator so that you can argue trivial points instead of what I was saying.

2) You are saying that we need a creator to inscribe 'absolute morality' upon us.

3) Without 'absolute morality', morals are man-made, and that's bad.

4) Moral relativism is evil.

5) 'I didn't say that verbatim'.

6) Evil dictators are humanists.

7) Religious people are the ones who help people, not non-thiests. Or, if that's wrong, then you are saying that you have more inclination to help people if you are religious.

Hmmm, that's all I can think of right now. I've already covered #1.

Let's go with #2. It's nature and nurture that instill morals into people, not God. It's friends and family.

#3 and #4. Morals ARE relative. They are based off of your own logic, society, culture, history, etc. The fact that you see morals as absolute, while I see them as relative, only goes to fuel my fire. So, what if we took God out of your equation? What then? Morals HAVE to be relative, as that is how society develops. What I'm seeing with you though, is that you are not considering the possibility of no God and lonely humans.

My guess is that you'll come back with 'How can you use your own logic without moral absolutism which God inscribed on you?' Well, the answer is understanding we all are brothers and sisters trying to survive and make the most out of civilization, so stepping on other's toes to get what you want will only cause problems, and is not right. We should be able to do what we want in life as long as it doesn't infringe upon other people.

#5. No, I didn't quote you verbatim, but I did quote something that, to me, had the same meaning.

#6. You keep looking at Ego-atheism and not the humanist part. You are assuming that if you're atheist, you're a humanist as well. That is incorrect.

#7. Look again at the small list I put together before you jump to this conclusion. Something I neglected to add though, was the population growth of atheists and the considerations of that into the growth of humanitarian efforts put forth by them. Stop saying religion begets charity until you know all 4 of those.

The moment you say one set of moral ideas is better than another it is because you are comparing both to a standard.

Yes, but here's what you're missing. It doesn't have to be YOUR standard written by YOUR God. Look at the main goal of humanists again. You can hardly say Mother Theresa and Hitler were the same people.

God didn't forget about this child or anyone else who suffers- or for the animals who suffer- that's why he commanded his children to love and help each other- when he sent his most beloved creation to this world in the form of the rabbi jesus- He sent him with His word- Jesus lived the word and law of his Master- if you look at his life- you will see that his minstry was helping- he didn't preach from the pulpit- he walked around from town to town helping, healing and feeding - as far as sermons go- he usually only talked while the hungry were eating. Jesus himself saw the ironic humor in that the son of man had no place to lay his head- Before he left he told his follower that many in the last days would claim to be his deciples but few would actually follow- and many- at that judgement - would cry that they had done great deeds in the name of God and would be turned away as strangers and robbers- just as we turn away the homeless and sick- America is christian nation- there are christian churches on almost every corner- some of them are multi-million dollar facilities with great production departments and satalite feeds- some preachers are multi-millionaires- but in every one of these towns- maybe just blocks from these multi-million dollar tabernacles is a family who has no idea where the are going to sleep or what they are going to eat-- please forgive me for being so long winded-- but let me ask a question please- what would happen if one of those churches(i.e congregations) decided to sell everything?- what if the doctors there and dentists, teachers, business owners, and such decided to spend one day a week donating their services, food, -employment opprtunities?-, carpentry, masonry,plumbing and electrical skills to those in need?- what if the "sanctuary" was converted into a sanctuary and pews became beds?- what would happen if ONE of those churches did that? would news get around? how long would it take for the next church to have to do the same thing? what church would want to be the one to say "Nah- no thanks"? sorry i guess that's more than one question.

reply to post by AlexG141989


Why falsely accuse God of evil you don't know if God is responsible for death, and if there is no God then where is the evil in your photo.

Does the vulture have a right to live?

Is the vulture's right to life equal to ours?

I could give you an answer, but to the natural mind it is only foolishness so you would not understand it.

But you are not looking for understanding or an answer with your question, you are looking to find fault in those who do not blame God for evil as you do.

Do you blame God for allowing you to be born, without death there would be no birth, to die is to have been born, would you not agree with that?

God is life both for the good and the evil.

If you had a time machine and someone asked you if they could use it and go back in time and kill everyone who has committed evil before they do their evil deeds, what would you say to that person.

Are you a good man?

Are you an evil man?

God is judge of the righteous and the wicked.

To hold the power of death is to be greater than the natural world, you would not be subject to it, it would be subject to you.

Who holds the power of death, is it not your master whom you serve with your false accusations?

Go now and stand before God, and request a judgement for your life, if you have the courage you will be given an answer.

Shall I make a request that you be Judged before the time, that God may give you over into the hand of the thing you trust to preserve your life?

If it is God you trust then the truth will be revealed and you will be preserved.

God is life.

reply to post by andre18


Andre18. It just doesn't work that way. God will not intervene, much as some might wish it. That would be a violation of our free will. It's up to us...you, me, everyone to do the best we can. We are our brothers keeper.

It's not Gods failure, it's ours. No we can't save everyone, deserving of it or not. That little child did nothing to deserve the horrible fate he suffered. We can't assign blame for ultimately that does no one any good at all. Instead, we use the horrifying events to inspire us to try to make sure that these things don't happen again, or if they do, to mitigate the effects. If we succeed then that childs death does, indeed, have a meaning.

I certainly don't condone the fact that the photographer just walked away (and he really did, I looked him up on the Internet), but I can somewhat understand how he could do that.

There's a Wikipedia entry on him that says he and a group of other young photographers that wanted to expose the horrors of apartheid made it their job to take pictures of horrendous scenes in ravaged South Africa. One of Carter's earliest pics was that of a man publicly executed by "necklacing," which means they put a rubber tire around his neck and set it on fire. He also watched and photographed many violent -- and often deadly -- battles between the white rulers and black people, among them a black guy being stabbed to death by white men.

Being in the middle of such horror for years, I would imagine, probably numbs you to some degree. Maybe it didn't even occur to him to save that poor little kid; he was too used to see all kinds of gruesome things through his camera lens, as a detached observer. By the way, he didn't kill himself because he didn't help the little girl. It was a mix of his personality (he apparently had a tendency for depression), failing love life, drug habit, not being able to make ends meet financially, and the images of the horrors he witnessed that haunted him.

There's a long TIME article, "The Life and Death of Kevin Carter," that gives you a pretty good insight on what he was like.

www.time.com...

If God were here right now to comment, maybe he would say that most things in life are not black and white -- there are a lot of shades of gray. Maybe he would also say that the lesson here is that we should also find compassion in our heart for the photographer, not just for the toddler who was left to die.

Unfortunately it was both the personal Karma of this child and the collective Karma of his race that has brought him to this sorry state. The law of Karma strictly governs this planet and it is something that "God" has put in place in the creation of this Universe as a tool of learning for it's immortal inhabitants. As someone mentioned before we have many lives and the choices we make in our lives create the causes which then have their effect at some point in the future. This is a divine law.

At some point in the past, the immortal spirit which inhabit's this child's body, in some incarnation created the cause for him to suffer in this horrible fashion. The reason that divine mercy and grace does not intervene to reduce the suffering of this child, is because in this case divine wisdom dictates that this experience of suffering that the child is going through, is something that the immortal spirit inhabiting the child's body needs to experience to learn that the actions it engages in, produce effects and have consequences that are either negative or positve.

Sometimes there are very strict lessons that human beings or entire civilizations of humans must learn, in order to attain their greater destiny as enlightened beings. The divine sees all causes, all karmic situations all influences both positive and negative and out of wisdom sustains and nurtures the evolution of the immortal spirits who make up the human race. In other words this child has a dimension to it's being that is spiritual and has a destiny far beyond the physical suffering that he is currently enduring.


[edit on 27-5-2008 by flashstorminc]

Originally posted by birchtree
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

BY ALEXG141989
"blueracer... im not blaming god that this kid died, if its anyones fault its the photographers... im trying to make a point to the religious folk who say god helps them and whatnot...

Blaming God is exactly what you are doing!


BY ALEXG141989
" Can you please give me a reasonas to why God couldnt take the time out of his omnipresent day to help this child"

It looks to me by the picture that God did place someone in that childs presence that could of helped him

BY ALEXG141989
"well couldnt god with his all mightyness have placed someone that was up to the task??? to me it looks more like this photographer came across a dying kid and decided it would make a nice picture..."

here I will let your words do the talking

BY ALEXG141989
"if its anyones fault its the photographers"


BY ALEXG141989
"and are u really accusing me of using this picture to attack your faith??? i dont really give a damn what anybody believes in (no matter how primitive the belief may be)... i was using this pic as an example..."

I will let your own words answer that too

BY ALEXG141989
im trying to make a point to the religious folk who say god helps them and whatnot...


If you are not seeing how your words are not adding up I am sorry....and you are not attacking my faith. I think it is a raw deal and instead of denying that somehow something like this might be your calling and telling other people it is a cop out, do what you think you need to do, but quit trying to prove points and blame God for not being there, the photographer whom committed suicide (maybe even from this very same topic) or scorn others because church people believe God did this or that for them (which by the way is attempting to attack their faith)

I will tell you I do not know how the Mind of God works, but I do know that you have the choice, weather you believe it is free will from God or just your birthright to do something...if it bothers you that much then do something. You will have my support in it, but on this thread it seems to me your talking in a circle of contradiction




[edit on 26-5-2008 by birchtree]

i am not blaming god... i dont even believe in the christian god so how can i blame him??? i think poverty in the 3rd world is mans fault, and it is... i just think people need to stop attributing all the good in the world to some god when everything that happens i just a part of life...

rofl
this is still going on?

This post has been "hot" for 3 days, but ultimately turned into the same story from different people.

Go talk about something else.

He believes
He doesnt

We get it. Go talk about something else

God did not create this world, our illusions did. Forgiveness of your brother is the only gift he wants. This is the only way you receive inner peace. Wars, hunger will exist until we all have inner peace. Can you afford to travel to this child and give him food? Only you can answer this. We have many lives and killers in one may become victims in another.

Trying to understand war and hunger is another illusion. But being kind to all you meet has an affect you cannot imagine.

I will not judge you, for you are part of Christ, pure and innocent. You too will meet him, in peace.

I can't understand how anyone could walk off and leave that baby.
There is no excuse, unless he had a gun to his head, maybe.

Jesus commands us to love our neighbor AS ourselves.
That means self-sacrifice.

I started to give to Sudanese ministries in 1995,or so.
As soon as I heard of it from Breakthrough ministries, out of Ohio.
That was THE ONLY place I heard of it.

Not on the AMERICAN news.

reply to post by bigbert81



Hello

there is nothing wrong with Charles Mason, how can there be? for if society claims morality's absolute then whos morality? surely we cannot then condemn anyone who is a product of society?

Pitcairn island?
Nazi's
Papal states
British empire
communists
cannibals
Incest
murderers

how can you accuse of the men of Pitcairn island of being ill, sick whatever as this is their way of life.

The Nazi's got half of Europe to go along with ethnic cleansing, you cant have a war crimes tribunal its society and their morality

British Empire slaughted loads in the name of the empire, should those countries accept that just as the rest of the world did at the time? wasn't this a great thing then?

cannibals should be applauded as this is not sick in anyway, Communists, ooh they have it good bless them. we lock up and kill people as we dont agree with the government. and too right i say!

In fact as murder is popularized i dont think we can start to lock people up as we see murder on tv,magazines,books and games all the time, surely they are a product of society?

If you disagree then you have a moral code built within and this is the Law of God. whether you like it or not these laws are the same that have governed our "civilized" world for centuries.

actually scrap that as the US can go back to the wild west days of the first settlers if they wish.

You cannot be a product of society and have punishments against that society its paradoxical and a downright poor argument.

david








[edit on 27/5/2008 by drevill]

reply to post by justpassingthrough


i understand you aren't replying "to me" but to everyone. that's how it should mainly be imo. We are a small internet society here with a need to share thoughts.

people come on here at this point in the thread and say "it's still going on? ha!.. go to a new thread" - whatever -
we here who are stil discussing mean to know something.

Now regarding your post and how you agree with me. What's interesting is that you agree but it seems we believe in god with opposite angles.
You sound like god grants the goodness like I mention on page 11.
I say there is no god that grants but we are god that changes.

Huge difference.
BUT what is the same is the moral compass we share and that's the most important part. We can all be wrong but if we all come to the understanding that god, for whatever form hit may be, has laws we must follow.
Are those laws the "commandments" to me I say no.. those are fables, stories and whatever else you want to call it.

What FEELS right is the point imo and what feels right to me is we are all connected, we all let that baby sit there and we all can fix it together but we have to come together in some sort of understanding.

it's why i said it makes no sense to me that there is organized or secular religion. If god was so dern clear to everyone then why on this side of the world he's taught totally different? that makes NO sense.

God wouldn't create all these people for so many thousands of years to suffer because they didn't realize what he was until the Christians finally got off their ass to go save them. Or Muslims to finally convert you. from being an evil Christian.

no sense whatsoever and the "infinite wisdom" we can't possibly understand" is just plain bunk as well.

Why would we be given a moral compass in the first place if we were not meant to understand how to point it?

the one thing we all agree on is peace and harmony. yet we can't agree on what god is or why he does what he does.

To top all this off, god being named god in the first place is a placeholder for understanding in the same way we wear a watch to control understanding of time. We don't understand time, god or nature.

So to me the only time we will is if we all agree we are directly a part of the same thing and issues like this thread will have the same clarity that I have in my convictions.

which could all be bunk as well

b

reply to post by MIV777


hello there

sorry thats rubbish, i have inner peace and its down to God of the Bible. this is fully down to him and giving me the faith to trust him.

cheers, though ill decline some amazing cosmic experience.

david

can you please give me a reason as to why god couldnt take the time out of his omnipresent day to help this child???

Because there is no such thing as god. People who belive in god will make some crazy excuse up to why this child died. The devil or sum crap like that.

Why even start to belive in god when theres no proof?

People belive in god, yet if someone walked down the street naked and said god told them to do it they would be locked up.

This type of going on makes no sence, along with people beliving in different gods. Does that mean people who belive in one god thin that people who belive in another god think it isnt real?

Or do they belive theres a full crew of gods kicking about in the so called hevans?

Answer : none of thems real!!!!



[edit on 27-5-2008 by MarktheSkepticUK]

reply to post by AlexG141989

Originally posted by AlexG141989

if god can use his omnipresence to make a change in YOUR life... why doesn't he do it at least for the kids in third world countries that can't get a *SNIP* meal and die because of it???... i never see religious people talk about this...what are your thoughts on this??? why would God help someone who lives a regular life in a regular apartment with a regular job who has 3 meals a day, and then completely forget about the millions of kids that live in *SNIP* shacks (if there lucky and not livin in the streets) with parents who probably have aids and virtually no income....so not only can the parents not eat, niether can the kids who will then grow up and keep the cycle going

can you please give me a reason as to why god couldnt take the time out of his omnipresent day to help this child???

I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person, who feels that God has made a significant change in my life, so I will answer your question to the best of my ability. The change God has made in my life is not financial, although I do not want for the necessities. The change God has made in my life is not physical, although I have all of my limbs and can work around my pain. The change God has made in my life is spiritual.

I was born in the US so by grace of birth, I have more opportunities than those of third world countries. I have a better chance for education, jobs, and health care. But as someone pointed out on the first page, God gave us free will so we basically run the show. If people are suffering in other countries, it’s because those who have are not helping those who have not.

Adversity in life can make or break us. My life is far from perfect. I have had financial problems, health problems, psychological problems, stress problems, etc. . . . Whatever problem I have can make me more spiritual or can retard my spiritual growth. In other words, adversity gives me the opportunity to become a better person. This is why we send missionaries to other countries. The tragedy is not suffering and death. We all die and many of us suffer. The tragedy is that many will die without ever knowing how they could have received everlasting life.

reply to post by AlexG141989


yea...I got an answer, God wants ALL OF US to be nothing more than ...the Good Samaritans!!!!!!!!!! Meaning..........if the global elite ensure that the food we give millions of pounds to will get there SAFELY.. and does actually get to ppl that are in need....then there wouldn't BE pictures like this!..

Stop blaming God when he's given EVERYTHING to us and for us.......it's NOT God's fault!! It's ours!!!

Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

Originally posted by AlexG141989

if god can use his omnipresence to make a change in YOUR life... why doesn't he do it at least for the kids in third world countries that can't get a *SNIP* meal and die because of it???... i never see religious people talk about this...what are your thoughts on this??? why would God help someone who lives a regular life in a regular apartment with a regular job who has 3 meals a day, and then completely forget about the millions of kids that live in *SNIP* shacks (if there lucky and not livin in the streets) with parents who probably have aids and virtually no income....so not only can the parents not eat, niether can the kids who will then grow up and keep the cycle going

can you please give me a reason as to why god couldnt take the time out of his omnipresent day to help this child???

I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person, who feels that God has made a significant change in my life, so I will answer your question to the best of my ability. The change God has made in my life is not financial, although I do not want for the necessities. The change God has made in my life is not physical, although I have all of my limbs and can work around my pain. The change God has made in my life is spiritual.

I was born in the US so by grace of birth, I have more opportunities than those of third world countries. I have a better chance for education, jobs, and health care. But as someone pointed out on the first page, God gave us free will so we basically run the show. If people are suffering in other countries, it’s because those who have are not helping those who have not.

Adversity in life can make or break us. My life is far from perfect. I have had financial problems, health problems, psychological problems, stress problems, etc. . . . Whatever problem I have can make me more spiritual or can retard my spiritual growth. In other words, adversity gives me the opportunity to become a better person. This is why we send missionaries to other countries. The tragedy is not suffering and death. We all die and many of us suffer. The tragedy is that many will die without ever knowing how they could have received everlasting life.

good post... and you actually didnt try to bash me or tell me what i should do... thanks for that....

but i didnt really understand the very last sentence of the second paragraph

"The tragedy is that many will die without ever knowing how they could have received everlasting life." what do you mean???

Originally posted by Komodo
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

yea...I got an answer, God wants ALL OF US to be nothing more than ...the Good Samaritans!!!!!!!!!! Meaning..........if the global elite ensure that the food we give millions of pounds to will get there SAFELY.. and does actually get to ppl that are in need....then there wouldn't BE pictures like this!..

Stop blaming God when he's given EVERYTHING to us and for us.......it's NOT God's fault!! It's ours!!!

please read my posts before telling me to stop blaming god... i probably made mistakes in the first page with the way i worded things

i am not blaming god... i dont even believe in the christian god so how can i blame him??? i think poverty in the 3rd world is mans fault, and it is... i just think people need to stop attributing all the good in the world to some god when everything that happens i just a part of life...

ok???