Shouldn't Secrets be hidden?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
If there is one, and I can confirm the validity of it, I'll shut my damn trap!

...

What do you want? You want me to admit that your rituals are real? And that they say what you claim they say?

OK.

What else?

Well, seeing as we did what we asked you to, and you've admitted that we did, you could shut your damn trap instead of resorting to insults.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Besides, there'd be no other reason for you guys to be here on ATS, other than to recruit and gang up on "antis." ATS-ers must have gotten special medals from the Grand Lodge by now.

This made me laugh, I can't help but think that the members of my Grand Lodge have got far better, charitable and more important things on their mind than what is transpiring on some internet conspiracy forum that they've probably never even heard of.

reply to post by DrBones666


Actually, no... they don't have anything better to do. Did you catch this?

JoshNorton
M∴M∴, 32°

I'm not taking sides here. Just pointing that out.

in my personal view, freemasons get the bad rap because they are secretive. that leaves a million theorys open to apply to them.

in reality, however, i believe masons are more of a pawn, a distraction, if you will

the only power they really have is their buisness connections. you scratch my back i scratch yours, kinda thing

in reality, if you want to look for Good Conspiracys, lets venture over to the Military Industial Complex, Pharma Corp., and Energy Suppliers.

Now thats where the real conspiracys are. Oil Drugs and Guns.

Just think about it. Masons are just a pawn used to distract us from the rook or the knight.

Originally posted by telepath
Actually, no... they don't have anything better to do. Did you catch this?

JoshNorton
M∴M∴, 32°

I'm not taking sides here. Just pointing that out.

Is it because they are Masons though? I'm not a Mason and I haven't played one on TV but I still post in this forum.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Nah. It is true that, under normal conditions, ATS posters repeatedly star/flag anything they agree with (regardless of whether or not it is the truth). Unfortunately though (for you), masons on here only star/flag posts that have a particular new point of view or bring some sort of new perspective - the intention of stars and flags. The tragic thing (again, for you) is that there are many ATS members who are both non anti-masons and non-masons, who just see through the mason bashing and realize its a red herring - so they do star some mason posts. However, I am quite sure you'll draw many stars with your slew of anti-mason posts, all of the mason bashers will love it

You've been shown clearly by masons - and non-masons - that your demands that all masons somehow record their affiliation because masonic oaths are evil/against the state is nonsensical. You've even been quoted ritual. I'll add another piece to the mountain of evidence. In North Carolina, the charge of the first degree includes that the member is to be a quiet and peaceable citizen, true to his government and just to his country. What was that about masonic oaths being put above all other obligations again?

I had to laugh at your whole "grand lodge conspiracy" - most of the guys in any grand lodge would be astonished to find the level of anti-masonic vitriol and misinformation spread about the fraternity. I'm sure they'd get a laugh out of it though - even I have to laugh at some of the stuff people accuse masons of doing. It IS good comedy, if nothing else...

[edit on 25-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by muzzleflash
you scratch my back i scratch yours, kinda thing

Ya, it's called cronyism. And that's a lot of back-scratching if you take into account the millions of members.

What's more, I can find out if so-and-so sits on the board of Kellogg Brown and Root; I can even find out if he's a member of the CFR, the Bilderbergers or the Trilateral Commission (by the membership lists they supply upon request). Try finding out if, say, Bush Sr. is a Freemason. There's not a definitive answer. He hasn't been excluded because someone has scoured a whole whack of membership lists and lo and behold Bush wasn't on any. The lists don't exist, so that hasn't happened.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


You have to admit though, I'm trying to make an argument here. I'm not some frigging Yahoo who jumps on with a canard like "satanic sacrifice," "pedophiles" "devil worshipers."

The stars thing: I reload the page, and voila, some brand new post has like three or four of them! And the whole crowd is masons to begin with. Tell me that's not a conspiracy - harmless or not.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The stars thing: I reload the page, and voila, some brand new post has like three or four of them! And the whole crowd is masons to begin with. Tell me that's not a conspiracy - harmless or not.

I see some of my posts are garnering some stars too and I'm not a Mason. You don't know who's starring what, so basically, what's your point? Or are you just going to ignore me again?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by telepath
Actually, no... they don't have anything better to do. Did you catch this?

JoshNorton
M∴M∴, 32°

I'm not taking sides here. Just pointing that out.

Is it because they are Masons though? I'm not a Mason and I haven't played one on TV but I still post in this forum.

Intrepid,

Of course not. They are human too (I think). They have free will (hopefully). I do notice a pattern but... there are so many ways one could connect the dots with this situation. What would be the motive? What are we looking for exactly?

LT


[edit on 25-5-2008 by telepath]

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Besides, there'd be no other reason for you guys to be here on ATS, other than to recruit and gang up on "antis." ATS-ers must have gotten special medals from the Grand Lodge by now.

Huh? Why are you here on ATS? For the pleasant conversation? I was a fan and poster of ATS years ago (my original username I used back then is lost to my bad memory - wish i could remember it). I was previously interested in 9/11 conspiracies and UFO related garbage. Now that I have grown in knowledge and life experience, I've returned to ATS for those and other topics. having also become a Masonic brother last year I was curious what kinds of conspiracies were talked about in relation to the Masons (other than the tripe you see in movies like National Treasure). There's no Anti-Masonic-Stop-The-Mason-Basher Internet Committee. I'm here for the same reasons everyone else is here, I'm an Internet junky and I love reading about conspiracy theories.

One of the other posters said something like 'doesn't he have anything better to do?' Kind of hypocritical criticizing someone posting on a conspiracy theory web site when he himself is doing the same thing.

Folks, is there even a point to this thread anymore?

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Regarding stars: could it just be that people feel your posts do not contribute enough to merit a star? It doesn't mean everyone disagrees with you, just that you have not contributed anything sufficient enough that anyone feels like starring you. Nah, must be a masonic conspiracy! I think you should wait for the anti-masons to make their rounds here, then ALL your posts will go up several stars - then can I claim an anti-masonic conspiracy?

I do grant that your level of writing is not the average "masons are evillllll satan worshipping child rapists" - and for that I thank you. It is, indeed, refreshing. However, I still do not see that your argument has any merit, and here is why:

While masons are not required to advertise their membership, I know of not a single one who will not say "yes" to the question "are you a mason?" In fact, most masons I know are absolutely decked out in masonic jewelry, bumper stickers, and anything else you can mention. I myself have two masonic rings (one sottish rite, one blue lodge), and a masonic pendent on a small gold chain that I wear if I'm not wearing the rings. Its quite obvious that I'm a mason, and I know quite a few people in the fraternity that go way beyond what I do to advertise their affiliation.

So essentially, the problem with your theory is that masons aren't keeping their membership secret. George Bush isn't a mason - no president has been for quite some time. We trump up every single masonic politician we can find out about in this fraternity - we love talking about all the famous people that are masons. I wish he were a mason - I may not agree with him, but I'd welcome him into the fraternity. But its just not true.

Did you know that if you called up your local college fraternity, they would not give you a list of all their members? Do you know why? Because its none of your business. However, you can find out who is in the fraternity very easy - hang out around the frat house, see who goes in - go around town and see who wears the frat t-shirts. You can ask suspected brothers, who will of course answer yes if they are members. If you want to find out famous members of the frat, their governing bodies always list them and do profiles on them.

...Wait. That sounds just like freemasonry. So why aren't you demanding everyone in a college fraternity register their affiliation with the government?

[edit on 25-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by intrepid
I see some of my posts are garnering some stars too and I'm not a Mason.

Don't know .... Ass kissing?

Originally posted by intrepid
are you just going to ignore me again?

Sir! Yes, Sir! Wolverine, super-duper Intrepid-man.

Attention received.

Masons do not keep their IDs hidden. They even have rings with the Square and Compass that tells who is a Mason. There realy seem to be no real great hidden truths about them. They are very active in communitys big and small. I think they are just Real kind Men who dont want any big deal made over all the chairity they give. It is a way to give anonymously ,and they have been around for a very long time . they were I think the first Brotherhood of True stone workers become Gents club. They seem to let in any Law fallowing Man, and they even have a girls group called the Eastern Star.A Mason is the sort of guy who would halp carry an old persons goods out of a store to their car if need be. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. I think this is a Moto of theirs.

Groups have a right to their secrets. It's part of having freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. However, the more secrets a group has, the more suspicion they invite. You can see examples of this in the freemasons and the government, which may or may not be intertwined.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
So why aren't you demanding everyone in a college fraternity register their affiliation with the government?

Listen, it's futile. Absolutely futile. You have your opinion, I have mine. That's the way she goes.

You feel it's none of my business; I think it is very much my business to be informed of the affiliations of public figures.

You take offense that I would even suggest such a thing; I cannot help that.

You think you have the most sound argument; I think mine is quite solid as well.

You may think the suggestion of cronyism is paranoia; I rather think it is a serious matter.

I have headache; and maybe you do too!

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Why is it futile? Are you just here to state your opinions and are unwilling to be convinced of anything, regardless of any evidence to the contrary?

I'm more than willing to hear the evidence for some sort of masonic conspiracy - diabolical or small time. If one could be proven, especially of the diabolical world domination sort, I'd do everything to stop it internally and then (if I failed) quit the fraternity and go around exposing it and speaking against it. And I can't think of a single mason I know who wouldn't do the same thing. But in my years of looking into the claims, both before and after I was a mason - all I see are smoke, mirrors, conjecture, and the deep desire of some people who wish and want a masonic conspiracy to exist.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Are you just here to state your opinions and are unwilling to be convinced of anything, regardless of any evidence to the contrary?

Unless you can convince the hierarchy to oblige my requests for membership lists, then I won't be convinced of anything simply because the evidence is not there for me to inspect.

Have you ever done elite research? Have you ever scoured membership lists to get an idea of power structure and interconnectedness.

This is what researchers do. This is what I do. It is extremely important for a proper understanding of the way things really are - as opposed to what they would like us to believe.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I'm more than willing to hear the evidence for some sort of masonic conspiracy

I'm not talking about "some sort" of nothing. I don't think anything I've ever said on this forum has been voiced haphazardly. I try to be precise. What part of "sort of" applies to membership lists, or cronyism?

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


This is, again, going to be circular, but here we go:

Did you also know that you are not going to get a membership list from any college sorority, fraternity, the elks, the Knights of Columbus, the IOOF, or the boy scouts? Does the fact that you will not get a public membership list from these groups mean they are all conspiring in some sort of diabolical conspiracy or cronoyism?

I mean no harm here, but I am insulted that you would call what you are doing research. I am a researcher. In real life. I am paid as a consultant to do research and I am a graduate student in a heavily research based doctoral program, with a research based masters degree, and I find it very insulting that you would call what you are doing research. It meets no standards of research that I have ever seen in any field in my entire career.

You ascribe being an "elite" as being a member of certain organizations, and assume all that are in those organizations have some sort of power. This would get quite literally laughed out of any peer reviewed analysis for a multitude of reasons: (1) Who gets to decide what groups constitute the elite? (2) As a theory, power is in your actions, not in your affiliation, and (3) Correlation does not equal causation. Because some people with power may be in certain groups does not mean that they are in those groups because of their power. What you are doing is not research. You are coming up with what you want to believe and then finding the evidence to support it.

You claim cronyism is some sort of benefit that is institutionalized in masonry. Where is your evidence? Care to give an example?



[edit on 25-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by telepath

Originally posted by AccessDenied
My question is, in YOUR LOCAL AREA, are the Freemasons as open with their Buildings and symbolisms and membership as they are here?

I like your topic. "Stating the fact that" someone is a 33rd degree free mason proves nothing one way or the other. The experience of being a 33rd degree free mason would tell you whether or not there is something going on.

You can speculate about free masonry until the chickens come home.


Experience is not gained through information.

Your statement is very true. But funny how you quoted my question, yet did not answer it.
So far, very few people have answered my DIRECT question which was the entire point of the thread.