Shouldn't Secrets be hidden?

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


But if a judge's religion has a particular take on the nature of afterlife, wouldn't the accused need to know that if the death penalty was on the line?

If a cop was indoctrinated with an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" mentality, wouldn't he be more likely to take things into his own hands?

If your doctor suddenly converted to Jehovah's Witness, wouldn't you be concerned?

As a Mason I'm only required to speak each obligation twice: once during my degree, and once at some point following it proving that I've memorized it. Most people forget the verbatim stuff pretty quickly after they've been tested, considering how long and awkward some of the text is. The people who are more inclined to remember the words are the ones who are teaching the next round of new candidates.

That said, ever single time the lodge is opened we speak the pledge of allegiance to the flag.

Which is more binding the the hearts of men? Something they speak twice in their lifetime, or an oath made at every gathering?

Originally posted by dalan.
Freemasons aren't a problem as far as their "secret" keeping goes. They are like grown men with clubhouses ( and I mean no offense by that).

I couldn't care less about their ostensible secrets.

But I do care about institutionalized cronyism.



[edit on 25-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by JoshNorton


To be quite up-front and honest - your assurances don't mean squat. And your analogies are disingenuous and contrived.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

To be quite up-front and honest -

You haven't been to this point?

your assurances don't mean squat. And your analogies are disingenuous and contrived.

So you are not here to discuss anything then? Your mind's made up and that is it?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

To be quite up-front and honest - your assurances don't mean squat.

Ah.

1. JoshNorton is a Mason
   
2. Masons keep secrets
   
3. ∴ JoshNorton isn't telling the whole truth. Ever.
   

Not particularly sound logic, but I guess we'll never convince you otherwise.

Where there is a secret there will be a conspiracy attached to it.
I don't hold much faith in the freemason conspiracies. My father-in-law is a 33rd degree mason. I don't expect him to take over the world anytime now. He's just a church goer and retired barber.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I guess we'll never convince you otherwise.

Now you're getting it!

Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Falsehood: the oaths and obligations that masons take amongst themselves are nothing to be concerned about. Go on your way, and be assured that we are all just great people. Nothing to worry about here.

Ahh, sorry. Not good enough. And no further amount of "talking" or "discussing" will change my distrust.

Action would.

I'm not sure what the solution is in toto, but for myself, as I wrote earlier, I could be assuaged with complete transparency.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
I know you're not dumb. And I know that you know exactly and precisely what it is that I am speaking of. Hell, I said in plain English: "Oath"!

You guy's can cavort in costumes all day and night long for all I care; but you partake and indulge in certain binding obligations toward your brothers that could and would conflict with that in which you might take to society as a whole.

I can see why this might be a concern. But the reality is that no such conflict exists. Lets have a look at these so called "oaths" in a little more detail (all examples taken from Emulation ritual).

Entered Apprentice: In this degree the candidate promises to keep private and to himself the "secrets" of the 1st degree. These are specifically outlined as the Modes of Recognition, nothing else, and the penalty for breaking that promise is clearly specified as being...

branded as a willfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth, and totally unfit to be received into this worshipful Lodge, or any other warranted Lodge, or society of men who prize honour and virtue above the external advantages of rank and fortune.

Fellowcraft: Here the candidate promises to "never reveal" any of the secrets of the 2nd degree. These are specified again as the modes of recognition by which a fellowcraft freemason can identify another. There are additional promises to turn up to meetings and to continue to observe the promises of the 1st degree.

Master Mason: In the 3rd degree the candidate makes a number of promises which can be summarized thus:

- not to reveal the modes of recognition of the 3rd Degree
- continue the promises from the earlier degrees
- to assist other freemasons as long as that doesn't cause any great inconvenience
- To keep other freemasons secrets when requested as long as that doesn't break the law or be in any way immoral

Please note that freemasons specifically take an "oath" not to break the law:

...murder, treason, felony, and all other offences contrary to the laws of God and the ordinances of the realm being at all times most especially excepted.

Furthermore, in the wider context of masonic instruction, freemasons are encouraged to treat all men as brothers and support and assist anyone and everyone, not just other freemasons.

So, in short, there is no binding obligation between freemasons that would conflict with society as a whole. Quite the reverse in fact, freemasons are encouraged to support society. Please enjoy an excerpt from the Charge to the Initiate from Emulation ritual which I think summarizes nicely much of what I have outlined.

As a citizen of the world, I am to enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties, by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society, by paying due obedience to the laws of any State which may for a time become the place of your residence or afford you its protection, and above all, by never losing sight of the allegiance due to the Sovereign of your native land, ever remembering that nature has implanted in your breast a sacred and indissoluble attachment towards that country whence you derived your birth and infant nurture.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Well, that's it. We can shut down all the threads on Masonry. We have all the answers we need in that statement.

I'm not sure what the solution is in toto, but for myself, as I wrote earlier, I could be assuaged with complete transparency.

OK, why don't you take the lead in this "transparency"? What bank do you deal with? You bank card number and PIN too please.

Signature worthy...

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Nothing beats a definitive statement like the above... One could ponder the academic machinations that produced such an empirical proclamation... But why bother, it was obviously arrived to with blinders on to a predetermined destination... As any beast of burden would.

You can lead a horse to water... But you can't make him think...

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Falsehood: the oaths and obligations that masons take amongst themselves are nothing to be concerned about. Go on your way, and be assured that we are all just great people. Nothing to worry about here.

Ahh, sorry. Not good enough. And no further amount of "talking" or "discussing" will change my distrust.

You posted this while I was writing. Seems that you have already made your mind up on this, and no amount of transparency or posting of ritual will convince you otherwise.

That is your right, of course. But there is nothing in the ritual that I can see which causes concern and I'd be grateful if you could point out where it does.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

If Robert Anton Wilson was burried then his corpse probably just burst in its coffin. I recommend to you his works, Prometheus Rising and Quantum Psychology. Read them. If you can come back afterwards and make a statement like the above again I'll be very impressed.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I, as a citizen, in an ostensibly free society, would like to know whether a judge or prosecutor - a cop, a police commissioner, a councilman, etc. - in my city has taken an oath above and beyond his duties to the public.

Why? It seems to me that as long as the individual is doing his job, and fulfilling his oath of office to the public, then anything else would be nobody else's business.

Originally posted by Cadbury

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

If Robert Anton Wilson was burried then his corpse probably just burst in its coffin. I recommend to you his works, Prometheus Rising and Quantum Psychology. Read them. If you can come back afterwards and make a statement like the above again I'll be very impressed.

Already did. Many moons ago. Tried the exercises.

It's afterwards, and the statement is on the record.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I guess we'll never convince you otherwise.

Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Falsehood: the oaths and obligations that masons take amongst themselves are nothing to be concerned about. Go on your way, and be assured that we are all just great people. Nothing to worry about here.

OK, I can quote myself too.

The statement: "I am right and you are wrong," is in explicit reference to the next sentence of the quote.

Are we on the same page?

I was not generalizing.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Falsehood: the oaths and obligations that masons take amongst themselves are nothing to be concerned about. Go on your way, and be assured that we are all just great people. Nothing to worry about here.

Can you show just cause why you should be concerned with the obligations Masons make amongst themselves? Either by citing the descriptions of the obligations as outlined above, or the text of an obligation readily available online (such as Duncan's or Morgan's expose)?

[edit on 5/25/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Already did. Many moons ago. Tried the exercises.

It's afterwards, and the statement is on the record.

Astonishing. Please forgive my ignorance and arrogance, Sir; but I just presumed by your berserk statement that you had not. If you read them "many moons ago," perhaps you ought to refresh yourself, when you've got time? It couldn't hurt, surely? Those books certainly made me think twice about certain proclamations I've made throughout the course of my life.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

I, as a citizen, in an ostensibly free society, would like to know whether a judge or prosecutor - a cop, a police commissioner, a councilman, etc. - in my city has taken an oath above and beyond his duties to the public.

Why? It seems to me that as long as the individual is doing his job, and fulfilling his oath of office to the public, then anything else would be nobody else's business.

Ya, you would say something like that wouldn't you?

Gee, I wonder why. I also wonder why you've got three stars already? Hmmm. Your comment wasn't that profound. (Patting each other on the back again?)

It is MY business if a judge and the prosecutor are both Masons; Masons who've taken oaths to help each other out above all else - to collude, if you will. Nowhere in your obligations does it explicitly state that God and country comes first - nowhere!

From that, we can infer the obvious.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Nowhere in your obligations does it explicitly state that God and country comes first - nowhere!

Can you cite your source? Show us a complete text that is absent those qualifications?

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Nowhere in your obligations does it explicitly state that God and country comes first - nowhere!

Can you cite your source? Show us a complete text that is absent those qualifications?

You're the source. You're the high-degree Mason. Show an obligation that does.

If there is one, and I can confirm the validity of it, I'll shut my damn trap!

There.

[I'm starting to get claustrophobic. Man o man, it's crowded in here! I should double check the URL, it may in fact have thefreemason.com in its hostname ]

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]