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Speculation: Egypt to South America trade route

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posted on May, 24 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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So, there are those that believe based on the challenged evidence of two reports that coc aine and tobacco were imported to Egypt from South America.

Lets speculate on what would be needed for such an endeavor.

1. Egyptian naval technology was rather weak but we can get around that by assigning another group to do the actual voygage

1a. Egyptian or others?
1b. Who would the otrhers be?

2. By which route?

3. How did the voyagers know where to go? Navigation methods?

4. How were Teredos (eulamellibranchiata) defeated?

5. How was scurvy defeated?

6. How was enough food provided?

7. Once in SA waters, were did the Egyptians go? What route?

8. Where is the trading port?

9. What did they bring to trade? Why doesn't it show up?

10. Why was disease not transmitted?

11. Why were no other materials/knowledge transmitted between the civilizations?

12. What can be determined from the RA expeditions by Thor H?




posted on May, 24 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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For the sake of argument Hans, what time period are we talking about, pre-1500 BC/Phoenician or post-1500 BC?

cormac



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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Good point Cormac. I believe the Cocaine mummies ran from 2,500 to Hellenistic times so lets go with slightly older dates?

2500-1000 BC



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Actually, there is another problem with the Ancient Egyptian/South American sea trade scenario, Hans.

The Phoenicians, as a people, are believed to have lived in the area of Lebanon and cities of Tyre and Sidon from around c.3000 BC. They however didn't "come into their own" so to speak until sometime between 1500 BC and 1200 BC. And they were the most advanced seafarers we know from those times.

Begs the question of who would have been capable of trans-oceanic trade with South America prior to 1500 BC? Wouldn't have been the Egyptians as their boats aren't designed for ocean traveling.

cormac



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Maybe there was no official trade route but only a few "secret suppliers" the ruling class had. The ruling class jealously guarding their secret in order to exercise power over the ignorant.

The more general idea of there having been no trans-atlantic and trans-pacific contact is, imo debatable.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:45 PM
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The more general idea of there having been no trans-atlantic and trans-pacific contact is, imo debatable.


I agree, however we are not talking about trans-oceanic CONTACT (to whatever degree) but trans-oceanic TRADE. There is a big difference.

Almost by definition trans-oceanic trade routes are indicative of trade. Question is, what was being traded, is there any evidence of trading and who would be trading during what time period?

cormac



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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There are basic problems with with classical Egyptian - MesoAmerican contact.

1. Time
Egyptian culture was eclipsed by the conquest of Alexander in the 330's BC. Their culture was already in steep decline for centuries, and not pyramids built since 2200 BC. Meso-American cultures wouldn't begin building "pyramids" until 900 AD or so, leaving a gap of 3000 years in "pyramid" styles. Never mind the fact that Mayan and Aztec pyramids perform a completely different cosmological function than their Egyptian namesakes. You know that the Indians didn't call them "pyramids," right? That it was Cortez, who wanted to be compared with Alexander, who originated that name for them? So where was Egyptian culture for 3000 years?

2. Technology.
If I was a Mesoamerican merchant, I wouldn't care about pyramids, coc aine, or tobacco. I'd be trying to get the wheel and the horse--hallmarks of Egyptian civilization, that would be news to the civilizations of the Americas in 1500 AD.

3. Disease.
Most "old world" populations have at least some resistance to both Malaria and smallpox--or at least you can see their populations have developed some rudimentary resistance to these killers. And yet the natives had absolutely no resistance to them following Cortez in Mexico, Pizzaro in South America, and numberless explorers in North America.

4. Alphabets
The Mayan writing system, used universally across mesoamerica, has nothing whatever to do with the bi- and tri- consonantal roots of semitic languages such as Egyptian or Phoenician. Yet the alphabet spread rapidly as soon as it was invented, to all of the phoenician trading partners. Why weren't the tribes of the new world capable of learning what the greeks, romans, and kelts so readily copied???



Since both tobacco and coc aine are processed from plants of the Solanaceae family, I posit an ancient nightshade-type herb, used by the ancient Egyptians for its sopoforic effect, which has subsequently become extinct, or at least unkonwn to us. If the modern identification of the mandrake plant, is correct, then this is a proven example---mentioned in the book of Genesis as an Aphrodisiac, possibly similar to viagra.

See, I have a much simpler hypothesis that fits most of the data, without having to introduced self-contradictory trade routes and hidden histories.



Only Occam's razor can give such a clean, close, satisfying shave. And the ladies love it!

.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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Awesome post, as usual strangecraft.

Cormac: Ever heard of links in custom and language between the Maori of NZ and the Inuit of Canada?



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 06:47 PM
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So, there are those that believe based on the challenged evidence of two reports that coc aine and tobacco were imported to Egypt from South America.


I am not a priori contrary to any theory.

But... couldn't it be that the two plants once grew IN Egypt?

(We all know - I hope - that the present findings of various disciplines about the distant past are far from complete... regardless of some of their representatives' claims.)





[edit on 24-5-2008 by Vanitas]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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you might want to scan over this synopsis of your speculations...
he pretty well covers all the points that might eventually emege,

www.andrewcollins.com...


or this 12 page gem from the ATS archives
www.abovetopsecret.com...



or? did the ancient Alantians pass the knowledge of seafaring to the Phoenecians and others?



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 





Cormac: Ever heard of links in custom and language between the Maori of NZ and the Inuit of Canada?


Changing the subject are you, Sky? What do any alleged links between the Maori and Inuit, neither of which as far as we know existed as individual peoples of those names before the first millenium AD, have to do with speculative Egyptian/South American trade and trade routes? Nothing as far as I can tell.

cormac



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 11:41 PM
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Interesting comments all

Remember to suspend occam's razor for a moment. We want to look at the difficulties/possibilities of a trade route (which would have operated for over 2,500 years). We base that on the idea that (for the moment) of going with the idea of an Egyptian-South American contact.

Questions for the readers of this tread. Who can speak to the food carried by Thor H in his RA I and II expeditions?

Food and water would have been a great challenge to peoples skilled at coastal sea craft. As it was for the Europeans, Chinese and Polynesians.

A ship crosses from N. Africa to SA, then where would it go. The Coca growing areas are still far away. How did they get there?



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 01:31 AM
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Okay, let me throw a few things out here.

Going with your original timeframe Hans, i.e. 2500-1000 BC, we need a minimum of the following:

A seafaring culture. (Phoenicians not coming into their own til around 1000 years later) Who else could do it?

A trading vessel capable of holding food and water for several weeks. (Phoenicians generally kept within eyesight of land for easy resupply of provisions) Who would know to stock up for several weeks?

A map of the America's. They would at least have to have a general idea of where they were going.

Knowledge of where coca and tobacco could be traded from. (North Western South America (Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador) possibly for coca and Western South America (Bolivia) possibly for tobacco-Nicotiana Sylvestris.

Something to trade the natives in return for coca and tobacco.

Ability the communicate successfully what is desired.

Restocking edible provisions and water for the trip home (again, several weeks) leaving enough room for trade goods.

Leaving the who and when aside, it doesn't seem to me to be worth the effort. Way too many unknowns.

One would even think that over a 1500 year period trading would have increased as a full time venture. Where are the 3000 to 4500 year old trading centers?

cormac


[edit on 25-5-2008 by cormac mac airt]



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 02:34 AM
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To add to my last post, the shortest distance between Africa and SA, again using Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki journey as an average, is nearly 40 days out at sea. Point to point between the Straits of Gibraltar and Colombia is around 108 days. It would require a prohibitive amount of food and fresh water for several dozen men just to get back and forth.

cormac



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Changing the subject are you, Sky? What do any alleged links between the Maori and Inuit, neither of which as far as we know existed as individual peoples of those names before the first millenium AD, have to do with speculative Egyptian/South American trade and trade routes? Nothing as far as I can tell.


We were just talking about trans-oceanic trade, werent we





posted on May, 25 2008 @ 04:15 AM
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We were just talking about trans-oceanic trade, werent we


Yes, as relates to the OP which has nothing to do with the Maori, the Inuit or your opinion on whether or not trans-oceanic contact is debatable.

Have any ideas how this speculation might have occured?

cormac



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 05:49 AM
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My speculation about a possible route that good has been used to bring I think small amounts of tobacco and coc aine from South America to the high class ancient Egyptians.


South American Indians have used coc aine as it occurs in the leaves of Erythroxylum coca (also called Erythroxylon coca) for at least 5000 years.


www.a1b2c3.com...

There are normally three trade possibilities in my opinion.

1. Directly by way of the sea.

2. Indirectly by way of the sea to somewhere in Africa [by seafaring Chinese perhaps] and then distributed over land to Egypt.

3. Directly by way of the air.

When it was done thru possibility 1 you sorely must have found some South American artefacts in Egypt or Egyptian artefacts in South America.

When it was done thru possibility 2 you sorely must have found some South American and even some Chinese artefacts in Egypt or Egyptian artefacts in South America and China.

But as far as I know it, there is no evidence of that, so for the time being I personally rule out possibility 1 and 2.

And there is the problem, because it must have being transported in some way to Egypt.
So there is possibility 3, meaning that it has arrived in Egypt by way of the air.
Now I heard almost all of you think or cry out load that that is absolute impossible, unthinkable, unimaginable, and inconceivable of course because everyone knows [except obvious spacevisitor perhaps] that ancient Earth people weren’t capable of flying then.

But I do not claim here that those Earth people good fly then, no way, that is indeed impossible, unthinkable, unimaginable, and inconceivable.

I mean here that there where others then who definitely in my opinion used the sky to travel then, It where then the same sort visitors as we have today, we name them Extraterrestrials or Aliens now.
Back then they where named flying serpents, flying dragons and on as Skyfloating said in his thread “Aborigines and Extraterrestrials” or illuminated clouds, which you can see here.

reply to post by spacevisitor
 



Originally posted by Skyfloating
Aborigines and Extraterrestrials

Contrary to the claims of mainstream science, the aborigines are not the only people to have a “rainbow serpent” in their Mythology. The rainbow serpent is also known to various african tribes or the african Bantu religion. In fact, maybe it is no coincidence that Harvard scientist Wade Davis book on Haitan Voodoo and Secret Societies of the West Indies (which originate in Africa) is called "The Serpent and The Rainbow". Neither would it be the only account that somehow associates human origins with Serpents. We are reminded of the ancient biblical tale of the serpent in the garden of Eden, ancient Chinese tails of flying dragons, ancient germanic tales referring to the “Lindwurm” which, according to mythology was a flying dragon who shaped the earth,


So by speculation as we do here, you can’t rule out the real possibility that there was a sort of contact between the high class ancient Egyptians and some of these flying serpents or whatever they named them then.
And because of the very special “pleasant” property of tobacco and coc aine it was the only thing they where brought to Egypt from South America .


Originally posted by Skyfloating
or even of the ancient egyptian tale called “The Shipwrecked sailor” which refers to a beautiful garden that sunk in a flood after being inhabited by very colorful serpents. An excerpt from this ancient egyptian text:

"Suddenly I heard a noise as of thunder, which I thought to be that of a wave of the sea. The trees shook, and the earth was moved. I uncovered my face, and I saw that a serpent drew near. He was thirty cubits long, and his beard greater than two cubits; his body was as overlaid with gold, and his color as that of true lazuli. He coiled himself before me. "Then he opened his mouth, while that I lay on my face before him, and he said to me, "What has brought you, what has brought you, little one, what has brought you? If you say not speedily what has brought you to this isle, I will make you know yourself; as a flame you shall vanish, if you tell me not something I have not heard, or which I knew not, before you.'



Originally posted by Skyfloating
No matter if the mythology is south american or african or chinese or northern european, the themes repeat, with flying serpents, gods coming down from the sky and returning back, gods teaching culture and so forth. I actually did not expect to find these very same elements in aboriginal history considering that they seemed remote and unrelated to other cultures of our planet.

“But it's only mythology, isn't it?” the skeptic says. “Mythologies are works of fiction”.


So far.


[edit on 25/5/08 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 25/5/08 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 25/5/08 by spacevisitor]



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by spacevisitor
My speculation about a possible route that good has been used to bring I think small amounts of tobacco and coc aine from South America to the high class ancient Egyptians.


Why not maize? Certainly for the Egyptians, even the royalty, a new cereal grain would have been more important that cigarettes and nose candy.

Why only those two plant products, whose sources happen to both be of the same genetic family---a family of plants found in Egypt as well as Latin America. And given the Egyptian interest in pharmacy and embalming, such plant use would fit into what we already know of their culture.

Doesn't it make more sense to posit that here is an old-world plant that produces that chemistry, rather than imagine complex trade routes or extraterrestrial taxis for which there's no compelling evidence?

Why no chocolate? (Frau Dr. asks)



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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Ah more interesting comments:

For the moment lets not consider an aerial route by aliens, etc. Too easy and of course no evidence of such.

Potatoes and maize - lots of crops that would have been of great interest to the societies on both sides.

Cormac raises the key point, no known sea faring group at that time and no trade ports or an exchange of cultural items.

It is possible to detect the Norse in NA and that was for a brief time and with limited numbers. If Columbus had made only one trip-we'd still be able to detect it as we could Vasco's trip to the East.

Scurvy, scurvy will show up in about six weeks which would have impacted travellers. Polynesians were lucky they had coconuts - in its own water proof container. What would the Egyptians have had?

Coca the range for this seems to have been Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador, so getting to Columbia would have been the end of your journey.

Keep the comments comming



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by dr_strangecraft
 





Why only those two plant products


Mainly because there are those who have read about the so called "Cocaine Mummies of Egypt" who contend that they had to have come into contact with the coca and tobacco plants of the New World, not some derivative Old World species.

Not much from the point of archaeology really helps the opposing argument.

cormac



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