Is The Catholic Faith a Killer?

If you look at it in the long run, you will see why condoms are banned:

If their followers practice safe sex and birth control, it means less births. Less births equals less Catholics being born. Less Catholics being born, means less people to donate to the Catholic church in the future. Less donations = less money = less power.

If they ensure that Catholics continue to populate, they can maintain a steady stream of money.

The way I look at it, they promote sex after marriage because if both the parents are Catholic, it will give a high chance that the child will also be Catholic too.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by DJMessiah



Yeah, that's what you want to believe - fine. Your right - your choice.

Is it just too much for you to grasp a true belief in the sanctity of life and the God given gift to create it, and the awesomeness of this gift that should be handled with more respect?

I got news for you (and those like you who like to say this) by the way. The Catholic Church is one of the few christian churches that has no mandatory pledges or tithing. It's all voluntary as each individual sees fit. Some give nothing at all or so little I don't know why they bother. It's irrelevant.

Besides, in this case your statement is totally backwards to their suppossed goals. If it was all about making more Catholics to collect more money, then they would be giving them condoms so they don't get aids, (as long as they don't use them once they come to a healthy marriage - lol).

Again - just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
If you look at it in the long run, you will see why condoms are banned:

If their followers practice safe sex and birth control, it means less births. Less births equals less Catholics being born. Less Catholics being born, means less people to donate to the Catholic church in the future. Less donations = less money = less power.

If they ensure that Catholics continue to populate, they can maintain a steady stream of money.

The way I look at it, they promote sex after marriage because if both the parents are Catholic, it will give a high chance that the child will also be Catholic too.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by DJMessiah]

Has nothing to do with power. Has to do with Sacred Tradition and something that cannot be changed.

Since the widespread of condoms in the late 60's which the Pope made aware of the dangers, this world is nothing but a big mess. Take a good look at the divorce rate. The abortion rate cause of how unexpected pregnancy can be looked at as baaaad. Take a good look at internet porn or the disgusting music videos with the bumping and grinding. The lyrics are another thing. Every movie nowadays practically has someone bedding another. Sex Sex Sex and it's not sacred. Just something to get your rocks off. Now I'm not saying of course condoms have done all this by itself but add fuel to a sexually charged person. The control and responsiblity has vanished since all you now have to do is throw on a condom.

Condoms take something away from your spouse. It's saying "I don't want to make love to the part of you that has babies."

That in the eyes of the Church is wrong. Husband and wife have to give themselves completely over to one another and not hold back. Kids nowadays are having sex at a younger age than ever and at an alarming rate. Why....because condoms are being handed out to them 'in case' they have sex. Well thanks mom and dad but you inadvertently just gave me the ok to have sex since you expect I may do it.

Like saying 'ok I dont want you to commit murder but if you are going to, then here's a gun. That is NOT the right message to be giving the children.

I'm sure that this will be MUCH less popular than the OP, but let's look at this from a different angle.

How many lives has the Catholic Church saved from the ravages of AIDS by insisting on no extramarital sex?

Same area of thought, different tack.


Eric

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


The Catholic Church wants everyone to have lots of babies. In Catholic Countries condoms are a popular form of birth control. That is why the church has singled out condoms. This beats the heck out of a babtist minister who told his flock they needed to stop having children because the world was overpopulated. For every Catholic that is lost because of antibirthcontrol statements the Catholic Church will get two protestants running away from preachers who spout Eugenic's propoganda. Everything evens out in the end.

I work as a volunteer in an HIV/AIDs Catholic Hospice in Thailand

(1) Fact : Condoms prevent the spread of HIV/AIDs.

(2) The only truly safe way not to contract HIV/AIDS is don’t have sex even with a spouse as you can’t be sure what they have been up to.

(3) Fact : Not all catholic priests preach against the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDs..

(4) Fact : The lack of sex education is the main reason for the spread of HIV/AIDs in Thailand right now.

If you have any questions send them along and I we try to answer them for you.

We take care of 68 children and over 100 adults at this time.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


What is wrong with Catholics not using contraceptives? That means they'wll spread diseases amongst themselves and die out.

hurray.

[

Originally posted by Veritas Aequitas

Originally posted by DJMessiah
That in the eyes of the Church is wrong. Husband and wife have to give themselves completely over to one another and not hold back. Kids nowadays are having sex at a younger age than ever and at an alarming rate. Why....because condoms are being handed out to them 'in case' they have sex. Well thanks mom and dad but you inadvertently just gave me the ok to have sex since you expect I may do it.

Like saying 'ok I dont want you to commit murder but if you are going to, then here's a gun. That is NOT the right message to be giving the children.

Don't study history much do you? Teenagers have always had sex, and young girls used to be married off at extrmely young ages. You can tell teenagers all day long to abstain but if they don't want to they wil just fornicate behind your back. Ironically also, here in America, most teenagers don't use condoms out of stupidity.

So go ahead and tell your children not to have sex and not to use condoms. Because if your children really want to they wil o it behind your back.

And the Catholic Church has ALWAYS condoned murder i.e.-the Spanish inquistion, holy wars, "witch" trials and so on.

It's amazing some of the views in this thread that are based solely on our times. Girls throughout history were often married off at the age of 12. These girls would be having sex, so maybe our modern time of trying to enforce abstinence is going against genes that have been deep seated for thousands of years. In our modern time we have come to realise the problems of doing this and obviously it can't continue. However claiming that children are having sex at younger and younger ages is quite wrong. We in our modern age are the exception, although i think we're an advancment rather thank a backwards step.

Whilst humans contain their other base emotions, for example we dont' go killing people when we get angry. The sexual urge is one of the greatest, in fact many evolutionary biologists have observed that aniamls will risk their lives to pass on their genetic material. Abstinence is a ifficult concept and whilst some may be able to stick to it, i actually think it can be rather damaging. Aside from the social stigma, when someone comes to actually have sex for the first time with a married partner then their irst experience can be quite disappointing. I knw someone who went through that exact thing.

Giving condoms to children does not give them the message of it's ok to have sex. Young people today as they have always been, want to have sex. Once the hormones kick in it's a difficult thing to resist i suppose, so the choice modern parents need to make is do they not tell their kids about condoms and risk them getting pregnant or catching a disease. Or do they tell them, hope they'll wait until they're ready and use it safely?

I have to admit i wish people would wait on sex until they're ready for it, however i wish condoms were encouraged me instead of the pill, this goes for Africa as well.

The same goes for the catholic church. For all the people saying that abstinence works, well yes if someone sticks to it of course it works. However you have to look at the figures, abstinence simply isn't stuck to as a principle. That's trying to use a smal idea against a raging batch of hormones, i knwo which will win for most people and that's why i think the catholic church should say condoms are ok, admit they help stop the spread of disease instead of claiming they're useless altogether and actively encourage those who will break the abstinence rule to at least roll on a latex barrier!

The catholic church recently realised they needed to move with the times and admit that extraterrestial life is possible. It should be noted that many people thought they'd never admit this and it went against their religion. So if the catholic church can have a sudden rounding on this issue, and in the past they've moved with the times and admitted that the earth does go around the sun. Then maybe they can give the thumbs up for condoms.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


You are mistaking statements by individual Catholics for official positions of the Catholic Church.

If an astronomer who works at a Catholic lab or university says that it's possible that alien life exists, that's not the position of the Church. If a Priest in Kansas says that condoms are ok, that's not the position of the Church. Actually, I should say it's not necessarily the position of the Church.

Just so we are clear for those who are reading this thread and might not be aware.

Eric

reply to post by MAC269


I commend you on your work and volunteerism. Thank you for adding to the thread.


Eric

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

You are mistaking statements by individual Catholics for official positions of the Catholic Church.

If an astronomer who works at a Catholic lab or university says that it's possible that alien life exists, that's not the position of the Church. If a Priest in Kansas says that condoms are ok, that's not the position of the Church. Actually, I should say it's not necessarily the position of the Church.

Just so we are clear for those who are reading this thread and might not be aware.

Eric

The official catholic position on condoms from the pope himself is that they're against the catholic belief. I am not propogating a myth about that.

Whilst it was an astromer who made the extraterrestial comment, he did so in the vatican newspaper, which would suggest he was speaking on behalf of the church.

news.bbc.co.uk...

My point is if catholics can have their minds changed over extraterrestials possibly existing, and the fact that the earth does go around the sun, then maybe their position on condoms could be succesfully challenged.

OMG! Who cares what the Catholic, err, 'dictates'? It's a matter of individual choice regarding health and safety. I guess the most faithful followers are left to their own logic to decide their fate. If they feel guilty about not using condoms and end up contracting all sorts of diseases and making babies even though they know damn well they cannot afford to care for the children, that's their choice. I would wish for once people stop relying on religion to control the free will of people. Science didn't come along to ruin their belief system. It's the way the natural world operates. Either use a condom for their own good or suffer the consequences. It's that simple.

Originally posted by pikypiky
OMG! Who cares what the Catholic, err, 'dictates'? It's a matter of individual choice regarding health and safety. I guess the most faithful followers are left to their own logic to decide their fate. If they feel guilty about not using condoms and end up contracting all sorts of diseases and making babies even though they know damn well they cannot afford to care for the children, that's their choice. I would wish for once people stop relying on religion to control the free will of people. Science didn't come along to ruin their belief system. It's the way the natural world operates. Either use a condom for their own good or suffer the consequences. It's that simple.

Whilst ia gree to any non religious person it's simple, for a believer it's not that simple. Their faith gets in the way. Whilst they shouldn't be having sex in the first place due to abstinence, they often fail this and yet the condom rule is easier to abide by.

If they fail the abstinence rule amybe they take solace in the fact that they're still sticking to the church rules of not using a condom, maybe it helps asauage their guilt. You cannot simple say "it's that simple" to someone of faith. They may even think that god wil protect them (please note i have read preachers in Africa often tell their congregation this).

What chance does the average catholic have? Abstinence is a very very difficult thing to follow, whereas not using a condom is the easiest thing in the world.

i really feel your being belligerent. i mean, you really want the church to say it's fine to use a condom. it's a crazy idea, it just cannot be made fit into the rest of catholic dogma. it's as big a deal as asking them to say that god didn't have a hand in creation.

i know that seems extreme, but here's the logic. the CC teach that jesus said sex outside of marriage and divorce are both wrong, ie; a person should only have sex with one person in their life, and should marry that person (although the phrasing suggests to me before or after the sex is unimportant) otherwise according to jesus, adultery is committed. (mark 10:7-12)

before HIV the church had said they cannot allow contraception because it takes the power of life and death away from god. this is only relevant in a marriage because of jesus' teachings.

if they now say it is okay to use contraception, they either have to say that the power of life and death is not gods or they have to say that jesus was wrong and sex can take place outside of marriage.

the church believes it is literally damned if it says either.

there is however a solution, within dogma, that any catholic can use to resolve this issue. all that is required for absolution of sin, either sex outside of marriage or use of contraception, is confession of the sin and penance, usually prayer. god then wipes the sin from his mind, its as if it never happened. no catholic has any excuse not to practice safe sex and the church stays true to its beliefs.

i have found that this is what the unofficial line is from most priests.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by pieman]

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

What is wrong with Catholics not using contraceptives? That means they'wll spread diseases amongst themselves and die out.

hurray.

Congratulations to Dalen! He's the first hate filled, small minded misanthrope to provoke me into using the ignore function! Yay!!

Eric

[edit on 25-5-2008 by EricD]

reply to post by akabetty


As a clinical researcher, that priest was correct, the virus is so small it can and does pass through a condom. Research has proven this. That is why it clearly is stated that the only way to be absolutely sure of not contracting AIDS is through abstinence, I am not even a Catholic.

i was born and raised catholic, and i went to a catholic school growing up.

From a spiritual point of view the church would tell us not to have sex outside of marriage, from a practical point of view our teachers would tell us that if we were going to ignore the prescripts of the church then to always use protection.

And you will also find with a great many catholics that when it comes to pure spiritual matters we will take our lead from the church but when its a matter of our own personal lives we dont let the church tell us what we can and cant do.

such as when the vatican released the 10 Driving Commandments i think this is pure idiocy and the church has no business making such statments, i dont recall Jesus telling us "Thou shall not consider a car an object of personal glorification or use it as a place of sin."


if you follow the 10 commandments and avoid as much as possible the 7 deadly sins you cant go too wrong in this life.