It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Is The Catholic Faith a Killer?

page: 1
2
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:00 AM
link   
Ok now before you flame me please read the thread and the disclaimer i'm about to put.

Disclaimer

Whilst this is a thread arguing with the catholic faiths viewpoint on one issue it is NOT an anti-catholic or an anti-religion thread. I don't mind what you beleive unless it causes harm to another person and i believe the catholic churches view on condoms is causing death and disease on a large scale. This is not a thread merely to get a reaction, it is a serious discussion of a very pressing issue.

So this is my problem. The catholic church has repeatedly told it's followers to not use condoms. Now whilst i understand and respect their choice to believe that contraception is wrong, i have a problem with it when it leads to the spread of diseases, most notably HIV. whilst other diseases are spread, HIV is one of the bigger problems and a major killer in countries like Africa.

Africa is currently still in turmoil, whilst their economy is growing and education is improving they are still blighted by a horrible disease, killing and disabling many people and that disease is HIV and it's later stage AIDS. The medications given for HIV can actually reduce many people to a complete stupor and prevent them from performing normally. However if they don't take them then they may develop AIDS and die.

The catholic church could endorse condoms and if they did then tomorrow the number of HIV infections in Africa alone would drop a significant amount. This would lead to a saving in money not only for Africa and it's people but also for the countries who provide aid in the form of medications. Apart from the economic costs there are the other savings. The lives of people who will be there for their children is surely worth the sacrifice of giving up this one idea.

Because the catholic church does not recommend the use of condoms and actively discourages it, many Africans go out and have sex without protection and contract HIV. This to me is murder by proxy. If i tell a man to not wear a bulletproof vest when someone is going to fire a pistol at him, then am i not responsible in a significant way for his death?

For figures on African HIV rates i provide this link from AVERT.

www.avert.org...

As you can see, in many parts of Africa the HIV rate has stabalised, this however is commonly because the rate of death has matched the rate of infection.


The sharp rise in HIV prevalence among pregnant women in Cameroon (more than doubling to over 11% among those aged 20-24 between 1998 and 2000) shows how suddenly the epidemic can surge.


Now imagine Cameroon had been using condoms, whilst i am fully aware that not everyone is a catholic in Africa the catholic religion does have a very large following. If the pope just let this one slide, just recommended to the African nations that condoms are ok to prevent disease, then we could seriously impact the number of infections occuring.

So that's my arguement, that's how the catholic faith is a killer. Whilst i have critiscised one small area of the belief system please remember i am not saying the catholic faith itself is wrong, i'm agnostic and don't mind what you believe UNLESS it harms a human being, and it does in regard to sexually transmitted diseases.

If you are fuming angry reading this, please check the disclaimer at the top again before posting a sheer attack on me and telling me i'm going to hell, thank you.




posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:16 AM
link   
I'm not fuming angry...


I fully agree, this thing Catholics have about banning condoms no matter what is, well, I think it's a crime against humanity.

I've noticed this sort of sentiment come out of the US in the past few days, various pastors saying this and that about Catholics. As long as it's Christians fighting among themselves, who am I to judge



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:17 AM
link   

Because the catholic church does not recommend the use of condoms and actively discourages it, many Africans go out and have sex without protection and contract HIV.


Let me first say that I do not disagree with totally. I was raised a Catholic and left the church a few years ago. Anyway, should they be having relations with that many people? The Catholic chruch also says that sex is for marriage and nothing else. Are these Africans going against the church? In the eyes of the Catholic people that is a most egregious sin. Besides, the world has been knocking Africa down for so many years that it won't change unless there's help coming from all fronts. Sadly, the media stays away from Africa thus dropping interest worldwide.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but instead of dropping bombs we could send that money to revitalizes the birthplace of humanity, but hey, I'm not even in that bracket.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:21 AM
link   
Yes i believe they follow the tradional doctrine of no sex before marriage. However we all know this doctrine is a little followed one, the urge to have sex is very strong and even the religious who want to control it often don't. So if the catholics can't stop them doing it, then maybe they can at least help them to stop getting infected. They could also if needed redouble efforts to enforce the no sex before marriage belief if that's what they wish.

Furthermore the catholic church has been found to have told Africans that condoms are utterly useless in stopping infection, that's a blatant lie.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:23 AM
link   
And sadly, they don't just teach that to Africans. They teach that to every one of their followers. I remember being in health class and have the PRIEST WHO WAS TEACHING (hah, great expert on sex ed, isn't he) told us that condoms barely stop sperm and that the HIV disease is so small that it can escape through the holes in the molecular structure of the condoms.

I wish I were joking. Seriously I do.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by akabetty]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:26 AM
link   
reply to post by akabetty
 


Of course the thickness of the average condom is round 0.5 mm and the HIV virus is 0.01 mm. So the virus has to move through a barrier about 500 times thicker than itself, a barrier with no pores or holes in it. Maybe the priest was confusing latex condoms with "natural" condoms, these are often made from the intestines of animals and are porous and don't protect fully from HIV.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:31 AM
link   
Personally, the sheer irony of a priest teaching sex ed is just ... just that, ironic. Of course, he was completely off, but the church will do what it has always done, mislead the sheep into the metaphorical food processor in the sky. It's no wonder worship in the church has been slipping since the mid-90s, more so that even during the great Protestant movement.

Besides, in Africa, they have taken such advantage of the people there, doing the same kind of displacement and policies of confusion that happened during the times of slave trade. Every country supports, denounces, and ignores Africa all at the same time. We're killing them off under the guise of salvation and aid, it's a horrible travesty.

Sadly, until people realize what they've all really taken part in, nothing will change.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by akabetty
Personally, the sheer irony of a priest teaching sex ed is just ... just that, ironic. Of course, he was completely off, but the church will do what it has always done, mislead the sheep into the metaphorical food processor in the sky. It's no wonder worship in the church has been slipping since the mid-90s, more so that even during the great Protestant movement.


Well it depends what he's teaching. If he's teaching abstinence thena priest is the perfect person to teach sex ed. If he's teaching about condoms, sexual diseases and caring for your partners needs then no he's not suitable.


Originally posted by akabetty
Besides, in Africa, they have taken such advantage of the people there, doing the same kind of displacement and policies of confusion that happened during the times of slave trade. Every country supports, denounces, and ignores Africa all at the same time. We're killing them off under the guise of salvation and aid, it's a horrible travesty.

Sadly, until people realize what they've all really taken part in, nothing will change.


Well i'm not here to talk about the other issues facing Africa, i am only here to talk about the catholic faith preventing the use of life saving condoms. That's what condoms are, forget pregnancy in this arguement as the church believes you shouldn't prevent life coming into being, i have no problem with them thinking that. However i have a major problem with their view on condoms leading to the eventual death and suffering of many adults, children and so the continual degradation of the entire country.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:42 AM
link   
um guys, deny ignorance. for a start condoms are only about 90% effective, says so right on the pack. secoundly, it doesn't stop hiv transfer, it just reduces the risk. on that count, the catholic church is indeed correct.

it is possible that hiv can transverce the latex sheath, but unlikely, as the medium of transfer is absent (semen). to suggest that the distance is a problem is ridiculous, how far must it travel to enter the body in the first place. to suggest that latex isn't porus enough to allow transfer is ridiculous, its is neither a uniform porosity and the holes, no matter which way you cut it, are larger than the virus.

actual scientific evidence

the catholic church does promote the only 100% way of protecting yourself from STDs, in fact it promotes the way that they can be irradicated within a generation, abstenance and monogomy.

you can say what you like, but the catholic church can't be held respocible for its followers picking and choosing which doctrine they'll follow.

the main causes for the explosion of aids in africa are complex, lack of education, access to health care, the high cost of medication (including condoms) and war. to single out the catholic church is both ignorant and erronious.

EDIT: just read the post above, the infection of infants through pregnancy is reducible with drugs, drugs that are expencive, they are not expencive to produce mind you, but the big pharma companies won't sell at discounted rates to the third world because it is protecting its income. same with every other treatment for hiv/aids, more or less. our governments, the ones that we control, are enabling this.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by pieman]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by pieman
um guys, deny ignorance. for a start condoms are only about 90% effective, says so right on the pack. secoundly, it doesn't stop hiv transfer, it just reduces the risk. on that count, the catholic church is indeed correct.

Yes it reduces the risk by an amazing amount and if one person uses it and doesn't catch HIV then they have stopped the infection. Are you saying that there wouldn't be less HIV infections if all Africans rolled on a latex condom?


Originally posted by pieman
it is possible that hiv can transverce the latex sheath, but unlikely, as the medium of transfer is absent (semen). to suggest that the distance is a problem is ridiculous, how far must it travel to enter the body in the first place. to suggest that latex isn't porus enough to allow transfer is ridiculous, its is neither a uniform porosity and the holes, no matter which way you cut it, are larger than the virus.

actual scientific evidence

the catholic church does promote the only 100% way of protecting yourself from STDs, in fact it promotes the way that they can be irradicated within a generation, abstenance and monogomy.


The distance isn't what i was commenting on, i was commenting on the sheer thickness of a condom, condoms do not have pores (unless they're faulty). Latex is not porous to semen or water, you can use it as a water bottle, it is not porous. A latex condom does not contain holes (unless it's faulty).

www.metrokc.gov...

Evidence in that link will show you that they do not contain pores, they do not contain holes and the virus cannot get through unless the condom is faulty, it is applied wrong or it tears. Whist they put 90% effectivness on condoms (btw the extra safe ones i have say 95%), they put that due to legal issues because they cannot prove when someone uses one incorrectly. Let me put this clearly, you can inflate a condom, and it will not deflate until the pressure damages the lining like a balloon. If a molecule or atom of air has trouble getting through, do you honestly think a virus can?


Originally posted by pieman
you can say what you like, but the catholic church can't be held respocible for its followers picking and choosing which doctrine they'll follow.

the main causes for the explosion of aids in africa are complex, lack of education, access to health care, the high cost of medication (including condoms) and war. to single out the catholic church is both ignorant and erronious.


The catholic stance on condoms is not the total cause of HIV proliferation but it is a main cause, using condoms would reduce the amount of HIV infection, if we simply accept the 90% rule as you suggested then that's a 90% reduction in HIV transfer, which is huge. the catholic church is responsible for telling people not to wear condoms, that is their preached doctrine every priest uses and so they're responsible.

Lack of education? Well the catholic church tells people condoms are absolutely ineffectual and yet already you have stated they're 90% effective according to the packet. The scientific proof you provided also says how effective condoms are vs HIV.

From the link you provided


The published data documenting the effectivness of the male condom were strongest for HIV. The panel concluded that, based on a meta-analysis of published studies "always" users of the male condom significantly reduced the risk of HIV infection in men and women. These data provided strong evidence for the effectivness of condoms in preventing HIV transmission in both men and women who engage in vaginal intercourse.

The panel also concluded that the consistency of findings across four epidemilogical studies of gonorrhea indicated that the latex male condom could reduce the risk of gonorrhea for men.


Access to health care? Well once you're infected that's to late, i want it to be stopped before that happens. Of course we shoudl provide all the drugs we can to anyone infected but prevention is better than cure, a condom is better than a pill.

War i will agree with, people who go around raping and pillaging aren't going to pop on a condom. However many peaceful people are contracting the virus which could be avoided with a latex condom.

As for access to condoms? Well condoms are far cheaper than anti HIV drugs, hey the catholics if they allowed the use of them could even hand them out in church. Now THAT would seriously get usage of condoms up and would seriously help the reduction in HIV transmission.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:07 AM
link   
This is just nonsense!

The Catholic Church is not what's stopping people from using condoms, do some research. The men don't want to use them regardless of what the Church says.

If they aren't using them because of the Church, they wouldn't be having sex outside of marriage either. If they weren't having sex outside of marriage, they wouldn't be catching STD's. Double Duh!



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by Relentless
This is just nonsense!

The Catholic Church is not what's stopping people from using condoms, do some research. The men don't want to use them regardless of what the Church says.

If they aren't using them because of the Church, they wouldn't be having sex outside of marriage either. If they weren't having sex outside of marriage, they wouldn't be catching STD's. Double Duh!


I'm not being ignorant, i've read plenty on it, many men dont' use condoms because they thinks it's against gods will. The urge to have sex can be difficult to fight (look at catholic priests for that one) but using a condom isn't difficult. If you can break the rule of sleeping with a girl outside of marriage then why not break the rule that says to use a condom?

I agree that abstinence is the absolute most effective method of STD control, however many people still engage in sex, and if hey're going to do that then why shoudlnt' they be encouraged to use a condom?

It is not nonsense that it is a fact condoms reduce HIV transmission, it is not nonsense that priests regularly tell Africans that condoms are absolutely useless and so pointless. It is not nonsense that many men don't use condoms because their preists have told them it's against god.


Originally posted by Relentless
This is just nonsense!

The Catholic Church is not what's stopping people from using condoms, do some research. The men don't want to use them regardless of what the Church says.


I have done a lot of research, and i mean a lot so don't just throw out the old ignorance defence. I've spent a lot of time going over this issue.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 11:06 AM
link   
I'm at a bit of a loss here. You believe that men in Africa are not wearing condoms due to the Church's proscriptions, but they will have sex outside of marriage in spite of Catholic teaching? That they are selective in what teachings that they are going to flout? That in the middle of ignoring one, they will embrace the other?

Do you really think that if the Church says 'condoms are ok' that there will be any serious change?

Good topic btw. I disagree with your premise, but it prompts an interesting discussion.

Eric



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 11:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If you can break the rule of sleeping with a girl outside of marriage then why not break the rule that says to use a condom?


You just made my point.



It is not nonsense that many men don't use condoms because their preists have told them it's against god.



What are they stupid? The priest told them not to have sex outside of marriage, but they do that. So it IS stupid they are not using condoms because the priest told them not to.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 11:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Yes it reduces the risk by an amazing amount and if one person uses it and doesn't catch HIV then they have stopped the infection. Are you saying that there wouldn't be less HIV infections if all Africans rolled on a latex condom?

yes it reduces your risk, but not by 100%. if a condom is 90% effective and you have sex with 10 infected people, statistically you should contract the virus. at 95% you get 20 people. so condoms still will not protect promiscous people very well.




The distance isn't what i was commenting on, i was commenting on the sheer thickness of a condom, condoms do not have pores (unless they're faulty). Latex is not porous to semen or water, you can use it as a water bottle, it is not porous. A latex condom does not contain holes (unless it's faulty).


yeah, you've been misinformed


These results indicate that the water leakage test is not adequate for the detection of the small holes relevant for viral transmission. This was directly demonstrated in a study of the ability of latex condoms to prevent passage of fluorescence labeled polystyrene microspheres, 110 nm in diameter (i.e., equivalent in size to the AIDS virus) (ref. 31). One-third of the condoms, none of which contained holes large enough to be rejected by the water leakage test, allowed passage of the microspheres, with fluid flow rates lying in the range of 0.4 to 1.6 nanoliters per second. link


if you read the link you'll see that latex does have pores.


if we simply accept the 90% rule as you suggested then that's a 90% reduction in HIV transfer, which is huge.


sorry, i may have been misleading there, 90% effective as a contraceptive is not 90% effective at stoping hiv. two things, first off is the spermacide that kills sperm but not the virus, then there is the fact that a woman is only fertile 1 week in four, if she were fertile all the time the figure would be higher. condom companies know this, thats why they clearly state that the figure of 90/95% refers to contraception. the quote i just used suggests 66% effective in this role.

don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing, clearly, but i don't think it is enough to warrent the catholic church abandoning its belief that the only thing effective at fighting hiv/aids is abstenance.

putting one against the other, concoms are useless, worse than useless. they gives a false sence of security. taking one teaching without the other potrays the stance unfairly in my opinion.


Access to health care? Well once you're infected that's to late, i want it to be stopped before that happens.
i think that if someone knows they have aids they're less likely to have sex. it's not always true but it is in the majority of cases.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 11:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by pieman
i think that if someone knows they have aids they're less likely to have sex. it's not always true but it is in the majority of cases.


I am afraid i'm running out of energy to type (i'm rather unwell) so i wil just address this and a small other thing and go to bed
More replies tmorrow.

It is a common belief in Africa that if you are infected with HIV or AIDS that unprotected sex with a virgin will cure you. I am of course not blaiming the catholic church for that belief! However i'm just pointing out that men who have HIV in Africa tend not to avoid sex by and large, quite the opposite.

As for the water test, well that shows a bad manufacturing idea which should be challenged, however if you review the link i put up you'll see a study of 124 couples, one of the partners being infected with HIV. There were no transmissions of the virus in the couples using protection.

The 66% figure you have shown i am afraid i doubt quite strongly as study after study shows long term couples, one partner being infected with HIV, tend not to transfer the virus if latex condoms are used and of course oral sex is avoided along with any other acts that may transfer blood or sexual fluids.

Even if it is 66% using your evidence then that is far superior to nothing and if the church goers had the option of abstinence (which i obviously and logically agree is 100% effective) and sex with condom use, then the transmission rates would drop like a stone.

What i am going to have to repeat as several people have asked the question again is this. Whilst a very small percentage of people will control their urges and stick with abstinence, the majority will not. Therefore is it not a good idea to encourage condom use if they choose to break the abstinence rule?

Just look at the abstinence crusade in the USA, it's been quite the disaster, kids breaking their pledges quite often and worst of all, buying into the lie of condoms being completely ineffective or even worse, in the heat of passion they forget abstinence and of course have no condom on them, leading to pregnancy. That's a side issue to this topic but worth throwing in to show it's not just the catholics causing trouble.

I'm glad some people are enjoying this topic and hope it can remain civil


[edit on 24-5-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 03:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
What i am going to have to repeat as several people have asked the question again is this. Whilst a very small percentage of people will control their urges and stick with abstinence, the majority will not. Therefore is it not a good idea to encourage condom use if they choose to break the abstinence rule?



You absolutely can't endorse condom use outside of marital relations if you don't condone extra marital sex in the first place. It would be hypocritical.

Therefore the fault lies not with the Church but with IDIOTS who if they're going to break the BIG rule, somehow refuse to break the smaller rule? Give me a break.

This has nothing to do with any religion, or lack of education for that matter (except maybe in the african superstitions about having sex with a virgin to cure aids).

It is perfectly obvious that lack of condom use can only be blamed on people choosing not use them. I doubt any of them actually say it's because the Church says not to, because they would look like fools, having had the sex in the first place.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Relentless
It is perfectly obvious that lack of condom use can only be blamed on people choosing not use them. I doubt any of them actually say it's because the Church says not to, because they would look like fools, having had the sex in the first place.


Well after telling me to inform myself maybe you should do the same because article after article, by many journalists, red cross officials and volenteers seems to point very clearly to the catholic church and their belief of not using condoms. I'm not going to go and weed through the internet again as i have done the last week or so on this issue. Go and look and you will find an avalanche of information saying the same thing.

Many africans don't use condoms because the church says they're wrong or simply they don't work.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 05:01 PM
link   
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I agree to a certain degree. Although they CAN endorse the use of condoms it would contradict the bible. They would be pro sex before marriage, which they are not. With that being said, people should not be sleeping around with every person they see.

Some of those HIV positive Africans are actually born with it. Therefore
the church can not really do anything about that. You criticizing the church about not distributing condoms in Africa would mean they will cause a sin while doing it.


About half a million children were born with HIV in Africa last year.
Lusaka Times


I have a better proposition, how about you go raise money and buy those
people condoms? You would not contradict yourself and you will be helping people.

I hope this did not come out sounding rude. BTW I am not Catholic but I understand where they are coming from.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 05:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Well after telling me to inform myself maybe you should do the same because article after article, by many journalists, red cross officials and volenteers seems to point very clearly to the catholic church and their belief of not using condoms. I'm not going to go and weed through the internet again as i have done the last week or so on this issue. Go and look and you will find an avalanche of information saying the same thing.

Many africans don't use condoms because the church says they're wrong or simply they don't work.


You don't have to weed through the internet for me, I've seen the articles, and I am pointing out why I feel such statements are ridiculous. I've seen so many flat out lies in the media in the past month, I don't know why anyone can't see through the garbage we are being fed. They want to blame the Catholic Church, plain and simple, but the arguments are not logical. If the Catholic Church is successfully stopping people from using condoms, then their wouldn't be rampant irresponsible sex either.

Even if the people doing it (having sex without condoms) are saying this is the reason, it's a lie - no matter what the source. Plain and simple, they don't want to use them.




top topics



 
2
<<   2 >>

log in

join