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STOP PRESS - Vast Cracks Appear in Arctic Ice

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posted on May, 24 2008 @ 03:12 AM
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Does it really matter what is actually causing it?

Everyone should just stop bickering about the cause of this "global warming" and focus not on trying, and probably failing, to prevent it but to adapt to it and minimise it impact upon us. Personally I think it is probably a variety of causes, but also isn't half as bad as the media now makes it out to be.

But we can't save the world's poor by arguing about it.




posted on May, 24 2008 @ 03:24 AM
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Originally posted by Sublime620
Don't know why there are so many anti-global warmists around here.


Cold temperatures kill more people than warm so anyone in their right mind would wish for a bit more warmth.



Even if there is nothing we can do, are you really that against cleaning up the Earth?


No i'm not not but then i never asked the capitalist/industrialist/kings/tyrants to pollute the planet in the first place. NO ONE asked for this mess and the average Joe has proven himself more than able to respect the environment that sustains him. The fact that 'we' now tend to live in cities while the destruction happens elsewhere is hardly our fault and we never did ask them to pollute instead of losing that few percentage points of income.


So the ice cracked... either we can fix it or we can't.


Sure we can fix it but are we responsible and should we even try to fix it? Will the cure be worse than the problem or is this change good?


People on this board seem to focus blame in the wrong area. It's policy you should be mad at, not the cause.


The cause may be noble in principle ( save the environment and all) but i will never save the environment as long as the capitalist system forces the one's closes to starvation to starve a bit more to 'pay' for the 'fix'. I will always pick people over the environment as frankly i would rather have everyone pay for a common mistake than just those who never benefited from that 'mistake'. It's too bad the planet got in the middle of all this but i am confident that she/he wont shed any tears when we all drown or starve for one reason or another; this planet has proven itself more than capable of recovering from most things imaginable.


The cause is noble, whether it is correct or wrong.


I don't understand how a noble cause can be correct or wrong? Will you mind picking one or at least explaining how being wrong can be noble?


You can tell someone has an agenda when just the mention of Global Warming makes them start yelling smart-ass Al Gore remarks.


Yes you can but since i am not one of those folk, and thought he was a self serving %$&%$%$ when he got to be 'famous' for refusing to become the president of the USA, some time before all this 'saving the planet stuff', i think you would be well advised to presume that i did read a bit, don't mind saving the environment, and won't believe in lies no matter how 'nobel' the intent supposedly is.


Usually I just skip over those posts.


I got the impression that you skipped over a whole lot more than that!

Stellar



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


I agree with many of the points you raise, and appreciate that you have taken a balanced viewpoint.


This end of the world nonsense is just that; nonsense! More dramatic climate changes have happened before and yet life goes on.

It is not a question of the end of the world. It is a question of glaringly obvious climate change. This is actually an inflammatory, even derogatory statement in contrast to much of what you wanted to get across.


The only thing we can do is adapt to the changes as they come along. Destroying ourselves financially won't help and yet some are ready to destroy our Earths economy out of pure paranoia.

The changes have come along. And what are we doing? In terms of an intelligent global strategy - zilch. Many scientists are arguing already that man-made greenhouse gases are damaging the ozone layer on such a scale the cycle is not entirely reversible. While wutone in particular did a stirling job of producing graphical evidence for historical global temperature fluctuation I'm surprised ATS-ers haven't picked up the clear implication - computer generated future scenarios that predict climate change will continue are right, whichever way you look at it.

People on both sides of the fence should be able to unite in saying that reduction, if not radical reduction, of greenhouse gases is an imperative. Current proposals for a world-wide agreement focus on slowing the rate of increase of greenhouse gas production, which is still not even a reduction.


I noticed in the first page that somehow the Race Card was introduced into this Global Warming topic.

I can only calmly say that this is way off the mark. Way off.

This is what happened on page one of the debate:


reply to post by centurion1211

Comment first posted by centurion1211:


just face it that nature is sometimes cruel and people are going to die - no matter how many trillions of dollars you want to spend.

Fair enough, most of the ones who will really suffer, at least at first, have dark skin, don't speak English and don't make a major contribution to the world economy... (I suspect such deep prejudice underlies much apathy, although please note I'm not making an assertion of racism against you personally.)

But what if they were your kids? Would you still be that blaze? Or would you perhaps do everything in your power to minimise the consequences and prepare for what is to come?

'Playing the race card' would be introducing racist comments or attempting to set one group of commentators against another using racial issues to do so. I did the very opposite: I was challenging the view that citizens of wealthy nations can just sit back and watch it all happen. Such an attitude comes from being in a position to cope more easily with the changes, and it is my sincere belief that if it was western nations that were first in line to face human and economic misery on this scale they would be pulling out all the stops to take whatever measures were necessary. No-one would have the gall to argue turning to renewable energy or adapting industrial output is too costly. I say human lives are more precious than corporate margins.

Even if many richer parts of the world are second in line for the impact to take full effect, it will still hit them eventually, so maybe when they appreciate that when all is said and done a global response is in their own interest they might at least feign some concern for the world environment, and accept that even costly redirection of energy sourcing and industrial output is worthwhile. And I repeat, saying we ought to respond with humane concern is not a 'race card'. When people have to resort to such accusations to rubbish another position it leaves you wondering whether deep down they know you are right.

The debate did become emotive in posts like this, but if anything it was the stone-heartedness of others' comments that were extreme.

People who care about these things deeply enough to take a strong stand are not, as you suggest, having tantrums. They are moved by the reality of global issues which individuals cannot influence other than via debate, and asking those who can to wake up.

Whether or not the primary cause of rising temperatures is man-made the greenhouse effect means even if the (ostensible) external cause happened to reverse and return to a non-harmful level temperatures could still rise significantly, albeit more slowly than if ozone depletion was itself the overall cause.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Well if anyone is interesting to do a bit of scientific work on global warming models. There is experiment running by Met Office and Universities of Reading and Oxford. Each of participant get their own climate model for analysing and results are published online. BBC already published them once but project is still running with a goal to make more exact results.

More info on:

climateprediction.net...



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:15 AM
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Dramatic evidence of the break-up of the Arctic ice-cap has emerged from research during an expedition by the Canadian military.

Scientists travelling with the troops found major new fractures during an assessment of the state of giant ice shelves in Canada's far north.

...One of the expedition's scientists, Derek Mueller of Trent University, Ontario, told me: "I was astonished to see these new cracks..."


I love the whole Scientists travelling with the troops bit!

Anyway, the polar ice caps seasonally shrink, fact. Man isn't the cause of the solar warming that's happening now, has done in the past and long after ATS has lived its usefulness.

Stop worrying about all the natural events that you can't change i.e. Burma, china etc..... If you are so concerned with 'people' then get your government to stop invading other countries, may be reduce your 25% share of world pollution, stop subscribing to all your TV channels and newspapers (they are all Jewish Elitist propaganda outlets), may be stop funding so much global terror and here's a thought, spend the trillions you give to Israel on say, US citizens that are living in 1st world poverty?

Stop being part of the whole man and global warming problem.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:22 AM
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All your guys arguing your solar event stuff, you do realize that the majority of the rest of the planet in a position to have an opinion on this,k outside of the good ol' US of A, takes global warming as a scientific fact, and puts the blame on man-made CO2 gases. It just seems many people have this urge to cling to and not change.

Even if you don't believe in global warming, are you always right?

Green industries would stimulate a dying US economy....

What if there is only a 10% chance us "believers" are right?

Your going to risk the future of the planets because you don't wanna give up driving your SUV to the store two blocks away?

Noone can know for sure whose right in this debate, but why risk it for trivial (by comparison) things?



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:33 AM
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I also found interesting article on Reuters. Posted here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by centurion1211
 



just face it that nature is sometimes cruel and people are going to die - no matter how many trillions of dollars you want to spend.

Fair enough, most of the ones who will really suffer, at least at first, have dark skin, don't speak English and don't make a major contribution to the world economy... (I suspect such deep prejudice underlies much apathy, although please note I'm not making an assertion of racism against you personally.)

But what if they were your kids? Would you still be that blaze? Or would you perhaps do everything in your power to minimise the consequences and prepare for what is to come?

actually africans will get water in the deserts...europe and america will suffer massive flooding...

to stop the melting ice all you need to do is simple insert about 120 electrodes around the general arctic area circumference and pass a small current.this will release oxygen and and hydrogen gas which will dispel carbon dioxide over the arctic thus stopping trapping of heat and cooling the ice.

the current does not have to be huge.

the cost is minimal.

just enough to liberate enough o2 and h2 to displace co2 gas and thus stopping the green house effect over the poles.

i have saved world.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by esecallum]

[edit on 24-5-2008 by esecallum]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 04:53 AM
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reply to post by Tenebrous
 


Well said. Just because people are saying there could be dire consequences for the entire planet doesn't mean you should assume it is scaremongering. And the ice keeps on melting...

Just what would it take to convince some people? Bubbles in the sea?



reply to post by Blaine
 



The question is, should we panic and act like a bunch of fools about it while we destroy ourselves financially, or; should we approach this calmly and rationally.

Our economy is truly a world economy and if the West fails the domino's will fall.

Yes, but that is the whole point of creating a sustainable economy!



reply to post by mimijyd
 



Anyway, the polar ice caps seasonally shrink, fact.

Gargantuan cracks in the polar ice caps are happening in places that do not fit the paradigm of annual ebb and flow. And the season-to-season pattern that is emerging is overall one-directional: shrinkage.

Here is some serious evidence: www.pewclimate.org... - highly recommended reading.

There has been concern about loss of habitat for polar bears for quite some time. There is now a very real possibility of extinction.

Don't believe me? Check this out:

news.nationalgeographic.com...



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
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1942 was the hottest year on record because of WW II, and is and of itself positive proof that global warming is caused by man. WW II heated our entire freakin planet up.


Can you confirm this claim?



Originally posted by Locus Iste What is true is that weather is unpredidictable system. One small change on the other side can cause natural catastrophe on the other side. It's butterfly effect one of the laws in meteorology.


There is another law that might be more valid. The total amount of energy coming out can not exceed de amount of energy that got in. The butterfly fable is totally bogus and is based on nothing than poetry gone wild. If that is a law in meteorology than I can imagine why they just seam to not be able to predict the weather for the next two days.


Arctic ice is still far below awerage so don't say that ice has returned. It has returned but because on north pole was dark for 6 months. We had winter and it's completely normal for ice to progress. BUT we havent reached even averege.


For one to work out an average one will have a part above average but there needs to be an equal portion below average. What you need to do is long time measurements not pick a year or a decade and shout dwolf at it. That wont do the trick.

Once you start looking at the big picture and I mean a real big picture, say recorded in ice cores, you may not see anything that is alarming.


About Al Gore maybe not all facts are as he represented it but i personally feafear consequences will be far worst.


And there’s the problem in a nutshell. Fear. Fear is a bad conductor for constructive thinking. Even worse, fear is an isolator for constructive thinking. Politicians know this fact and are not shy to use this in their advantage. Once fear is bullied into the play yard, the kids are easily persuaded to hand over the goodies.

And now look at the way the science is done by a bully :

35 inconvenient truths

When a scientific thesis includes at least 35 provable errors, you can render it entirely useless.

So now there is a problem without a theory. One can not try and counteract something that one does not know about. So what one must do is try to get a picture of what is causing the phenomenon and if it is curable then work out a cure but for crying out load don’t run around like a beheaded chicken squishing blood against the wall. The mess will only become bigger.

We need good science, no lies no, scare inducting, no exaggerations, no convenient errors, no politicians, no lies.

That what needs to be done.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 08:41 AM
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I'll re-itterate...

Global Warming = Total Bunk

Climate Change = The Reality

Snow advisories open Memorial Day weekend

The unofficial start of summer for Memorial Day weekend opened with snow advisories across much of New Mexico Friday.

New Mexico State Police will be manning DWI checkpoints and patrols statewide, while the Department of Public Safety will be posting undercover agents at parks and campgrounds to assure that underage people aren't consuming alcohol.


Great! Climate change AND Big Brother


Even if this is normal for NM for this time of year, then it still helps dispute "global warming" but I assume this isn't very normal. Just like all the other areas around the globe this past winter season that saw record snowfalls.

And let's kick this in also, in reference to climate change

Astronomy Picture of the Day

Now, Jupiter has a third red spot, again produced from a smaller whitish storm. All three are seen in this image...

Jupiter's recent outbreak of red spots is likely related to large scale climate change as the gas giant planet is getting warmer near the equator.


It's the whole damn system, people... not just Earth. So... one can safely conclude... it is NOT due to 'man' and global warming.

[edit on 5/24/2008 by RabbitChaser]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
I believe it is a SOLAR event.
The entire solar system is warming up, it is hotter everywhere that the sun shines.

What exactly do YOU PROPOSE that we, as small humans on this planet, do to stop the sun from having its solar event?


I'm not so sure how it is you so quickly dismiss the possibility of multiple causes with cumulative impact?

I wish I could be as certain as you.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:07 AM
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ok ive stood by an read this thread enuff,

Ice reflects sunlight, the more ice that is melted the more sunlight is absorbed by the darker ocean water. and then into Hydro thermodynamics.


they sun may very well be heating up, but we are just takening in more heat from it then normal, in reaction would cause the temp shift of a few milla degrees, Not to mention human beings an other animals for food have been raised constantly thruout our lifetimes, Im pretty sure we dont make the planet colder.

Like Loam said, theres about just as many factors for the earth's warming as there are sun rays. So the bickering over the last slice of cake needs to be overwith, go eat some ice cream, or better yet a solution.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:30 AM
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I'm afraid i have a rather simplistic view on this.

What is causing it is now unimporant, lets just all agree the temperature is rising. In past times the temerature has been far higher than it is now and yet the planet survived.

There are going to be tough times ahead, instead of funnelling money into ineffectual carbon control systems, maybe we should concentrate on fortifying defenses along rivers and sea coasts. Consider moving populations, addressing issues we'll have with crops. These things take a lot of time and we should work now.

Another pressing issue as many have said is the fact we're poisoning the earth with far more damaging chemicals than simple carbon. Chemicals which cause bad mutations, chemicals that kill animals and plants, or in some causes cause massive blooms of algae which kills entire stretches of rivers. Massive fishing which has damaged many fish stocks so badly that we're experiencing great red tides that we've never seen before.

these are the pressing issues, stop arguing aobut the cause and start thinking of an action plan to deal with the consequences. If a vehicle has hit someone then you shouldn't be trying to figure out if it's a truck or a car, you should start seeing what you can do for the poor victim.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to
 
There is another law that might be more valid. The total amount of energy coming out can not exceed de amount of energy that got in. The butterfly fable is totally bogus and is based on nothing than poetry gone wild. If that is a law in meteorology than I can imagine why they just seam to not be able to predict the weather for the next two days.


Exactly there are situations you don't know what will be happening tomorrow. Systems can go few kilometers more south or north and it can be limit between dry weather and floods.



For one to work out an average one will have a part above average but there needs to be an equal portion below average. What you need to do is long time measurements not pick a year or a decade and shout dwolf at it. That wont do the trick.

Once you start looking at the big picture and I mean a real big picture, say recorded in ice cores, you may not see anything that is alarming.


It's like in 2nd world war. Hitler attacked Poland well it wasn't alarming was it? It certainly didn't affect whole world did it? From current datas i can tell you that things at Arctic are very serious.




And there’s the problem in a nutshell. Fear. Fear is a bad conductor for constructive thinking. Even worse, fear is an isolator for constructive thinking. Politicians know this fact and are not shy to use this in their advantage. Once fear is bullied into the play yard, the kids are easily persuaded to hand over the goodies.


Yeah what are those fears? That you get stupid government who is controlled by oil companies and president that most of world are laughing at and his lies are making wars and killing innocent people. Just that oil companies would have more oil. I doubt USA will ever be brave enough to pay back for damage done in Iraq. Leave alone Kyoto. If USA government would cut just few % of military budget it would cover "loss" cause of Kyoto protocol. Anyway Kyoto is done, it didn't reach it's purpose cause someone was spreading lies about it and all you need is stupid president to believe in them.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Locus Iste It's like in 2nd world war. Hitler attacked Poland well it wasn't alarming was it? It certainly didn't affect whole world did it? From current datas i can tell you that things at Arctic are very serious.


Hitler, Poland and artic data?

Care to go in detail there cause I look at pigs hitting a drum.



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
I know how to stop all this mess...

Build a giant water cannon and aim it at the SUN!






[edit on 23-5-2008 by jimmyjackblack]

I deserve an applause for that idea.

-Jimmy

[edit on 23-5-2008 by jimmyjackblack]


Aw come on folks, surely this made at lest a couple of people chuckle right?

Just tryin' to lighten up the mood here.

-Jimmy



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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This is fantastic. I'll be selling some ocean front property in Kansas within the next decade. What other things can we do? We can sell icebergs for clean water. And it opens a whole other land mass to exploit it's resources. It sounds like a winning situation for capitalism.

It is funny though how natural phenomenon is used for more fear propagation and guilt tripping by the 'blame humanity first' crowd. If it were an ice age it would be humans' fault for polluting and blocking the warm rays of the sun.

Edit: Oops, I was thinking about Antarctica with the 'land mass' comment.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by General Izer]



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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I for one will be reassessing my views on this topic as a result of some hard evidence that has been offered by various posters. This whole story has certainly reignited my interest.

D.Wolf's '35 inconvenient truths' notwithstanding, multiple causal factors appears a convincing argument, especially when such a complex system is in view. Even if Al Gore's movie can be (at least partly) debunked, I have never seen it and have never relied on it. I think sources such as those I offered earlier on page 7 and those offered by others before that are also pretty convincing.

Most people on ATS know politicians, ahem, might be tempted to use what is happening for their own ends. Ever heard of a politician without an agenda?
Politicians on a bandwagon... now they really do take some stopping.

Where do we go from here then? In the British parliament there is what we refer to as a 'register of members' interests'. Sources of income and potential conflicts of interest are registered and published accordingly. You can actually read the PDFs online here (via the top link on the page).

The sources of information on which people have based their convictions do not always offer even such an imperfect degree of transparency. There is no such register on ATS either.

I have actually been somewhat taken aback by the degree to which so many people in this debate have become skeptical about man's contribution to climate change. Shouldn't we be skeptical of scientific data published as a result of government/industry-funded projects? Or where the issue of funding has not been considered as a major factor in the reliability of the conclusions reached, or even of the published data they are based on (especially on websites, but also in journals)?

I for one think we should not swallow wholesale the 'increased activity in the sun' or 'natural cycle'-based theories without some healthy skepticism. The fact the theories are convenient for government and industry does not mean they can't have at least some validity, but there are serious vested interests behind some of this research - sometimes seen, sometimes unseen. This post from Locus Iste, which received little interest, surely deserved more consideration:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

No need to change course to a sustainable economy requiring imaginative restructuring. Spew as much CO2 as you want into the atmosphere. How convenient...



posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 


Trying to lighten up things do ya! Looks like we found the freaking cause to the problem people!



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