Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids

Wow, who *&^%$$%% in your cornflakes? That's just it! I am a Christian, and I do read and study the bible. What these people are doing is perverting the gospel for their own selfish wants and needs, and that is of the devil. They all need to be deprogrammed. All of them are brainwashed! To force a young, innocent girl to marry some old, sick perverted pedophile and have sex against her will is not of God! In fact, I'm sure that it would be an abomination to God.

Originally posted by Blueangel7
It is sad that the children were taken away from their moms, but the whole sect is brainwashed. It's basically just old men that want young women, very young, like 13 or 14, etc. All of them are brainwashed, so what do you do? The women have no contact with the outside world, thank goodness that some of them got away, and reported the abuse. Someone needs to start an immediate deprogramming. What these men have done is pervert the gospel. Using the bible for their own selfish purposes, and pervert the true gospel! That is antichrist! I hope that these people can be deprogrammed, instead of another Waco incident.

Im not going to go and call you names like the next poster did but I am going to ask you one simple question. What does it mean to be deprogrammed? Its basically old men who want women? Says who? Did the courts say that? Have these men been tried and convicted? You and all of these people might be right this may be a house of rapists and pedophiles but so far it has not been proven so who are you or anyone else to say these people need to be deprogrammed. All of the "facts" the government has put out do far has come back to be false. These people are guilty of one thing from what I see so far and that is guilty of living an alternative lifestyle. One where they don't buy in to corporate America. They rely on themselves and each other. They are close knit. You may call that weird they call it family oriented.

Right now we live in a sick world full of greed and vanity and these people dont want any part of it. They want their privacy from a world that does nothing but try to screw the man next to you or get screwed by the government. They want no part of this. They are self wealthy and built their buildings by hand with hand mined stone and wood. They make their own clothes and grow their own food. Those are the facts so far. Anything else right now is hearsay and you shouldn't be quit to judge. Especially being from what I see a religious person yourself. "Let he who haven't sinned cast the first stone" Who said that?

reply to post by Blueangel7


There are many who want nothing to do with the outside world hermits monks ,cloistered nuns , and recluses. It doesn't mean they are brain washed. I have even heard some people go so far as to accuse housewives and stay moms as being cut off from the outside world. Some people are not wired to be in the rat race. Some of the FDLS people prefer living a pioneer fantasy.They aren't brainwashed they were born that way and they would regard your lifestyle as weird. They might think you have been brainwashed by TV to act or dress the way you do. You would not want them imposing their lifestyle on you them and like wise you should not impose your way of life on them in the guise of deprograming.

reply to post by Blueangel7


Your saintly picture aside, have you given how you are responding much though? If you had bothered to read the pages of posts before you posted, you would have seen three things.

1. They have, and have had, no evidence of widespread abuse among the children. As a matter of fact, their supposed stats of teen pregnancy are lower than the national average. They actually have no proof at all of ANY abuse. Ever hear the phrase innocent until proven guilty?
2. No one here has defended polygamy, molestation, or the holding of women against their will. What we have stood against, is the states right to come into your community and take your children (even though they have NO proof of a crime) and detain 27 year olds as minors, and sell your children to REAL pedophiles. (or did you not read the stats provided regarding molestation of foster children?)
3. According to many sources, your narrow worldview is preventing you from seeing the real problem here. You are the type of person who will take an amish persons child. They, after all, do not fit in your world view. And stop talking about this abuse like it's a fact please.

I want people to understand what kind of precedent this sets. That this means they can come and do the same to your daughters. Yes, I know most, if not all (wink) of you are not in polygamous marriages somewhere in the desert!

But do you go to church? Belong to an independent party, or militia. Or gun club, or book club?

Or do any of you belong to any web sites where you may, or may not, post what some might consider to be subversive or counter government material?

Do you hear that knock at the door?

reply to post by Blueangel7


There is still no evidence to warrant the raid. 411 children are suffering in group homes. An untold number of women were held illegally as minors. Only five girls who might or might not be minors have been found pregnant . I bet there are many towns in Texas that can boast five pregnant teenagers. Whats to stop CPS from stealing the children of those towns?What you are calling deprograming may turn out to be pedofiles who work for group homes taking advantage of the FDLS children many of whom are under five.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by ColdWater

 

Yeah, maybe living through events like Waco have opened my eyes to some of the STUPID things that government can do. What happened here? Some uptight local judge decided that this sect was just too different for their tastes? What about the Amish? are they next?
My brother just argued with me, telling me that the group is all brainwashed, thats why there is no evidence. I told him that there never was "evidence" in the first place. This was all a crock to test their will against fringe groups. Luckily, the group had no weapons...

This case has always angered me to almost no end... Texas had NO right to do what they did... this was simple religious persecution, plain and simple. If the police wanted to get these people all out of the compound, they should have used ONLY police buses, for starters, not the damned Baptist Church buses... that was a deliberate choice on their part... to send a message to the FLDS people that they were being "saved"... yeah, right. The Baptists should have stayed the hell home, and let the police do their own dirty work.

Texas will be monumentally stupid, if it drags this out, or even thinks of attempting another Waco... they say don't mess with Texas... well, Texas chose the wrong religious group to tick off... anyone recall a little something called Mountain Meadows? These kids need to go home right now, and the state of Texas AND the stupid CPS should both make a court-ordered PUBLIC apology, broadcast on television, for all to see.

I am not FLDS, but I am Mormon, and this is just another chapter in people persecuting members of a faction of the Mormon faith. "Mainstream" Mormons no longer practice or preach polygamy, but the FLDS sect does. I think I know why the Texans raided the compound now... jealousy... all those loser Texans were just jealous that they themselves cannot have multiple wives... so if they can't, why should anyone?

I used to want to visit Texas... no longer. Nothing short of a full public apology, the resignation of whoever ordered this injustice, and FULL financial restitution to the victims, will make me ever reconsider that position, either. Until then, Texas will never see a penny of my money.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject that spurs strong feelings in me, and that I feel strongly about. I'm just glad that one judge had a brain, and a heart.

reply to post by BolianAdmiral


I am also angry and scared. I am not Mormon or FDLS but I live in Texas. The mass kidnapping in Eldorado was to close to home for my comfort. CPS has given themselves rights they should not have. There seems to be the idea floating around in the heads of trolls and media types that those people had it coming because they are weird never mind that it is obvious that most of the parents weren't breaking any laws there is even a good chance none of the parents were breaking the law. Well, we are all weird in someone else's eye.

BlueAngel7, you seem like a very good person..

Please don't take my comments as a put down.

I think the problem is, it is you who are just a bit naive. Like most of us, you were raised to respect all authority and you have been taught that what they say is always the truth and they always have everyones best interest in mind.

I think what people are saying here is, it is you who are sleeping or brainwashed as you say, because you are taking the unsubstantiated rumors created by a few disgruntled - divorced members and jealous outsiders disseminated by the MSM as gospel.

There may very well be some truth to these rumors and a proper legal investigation would be prudent, however the action that was taken is against what I (& others here) believe any government agency in the United States of America should have authority to do - without due process ect...

They could have done it properly and dealt with a few lawbreakers and situations, but their actions show that they had some unsaid agenda- thus they have lied to the American people through the Courts and the MSM.

Instead they chose the heavy handed scorched earth approach and trampled on the rights of Americans many of whom are not guilty of anything except being different than the norm.

All you have to do is look at the facts of this case and not go with you emotions that CPS is trying to play off of.

Example: After public opinion seemed to be swaying against the raid and even some in the MSM were beginning to turn on CPS & their action, they made a news release purposely to mis-lead the public. "35 teenagers were found to have been or are currently pregnant".

Now how many ways did they lie and attempt to deceive with that bit?

1) First they said Teenagers, instead of specific ages as at least 28% of teens are of legal age. They could have used "Minors" which would of had more meaning, however that wouldn't have allowed them to boost the number nearly 1/3 higher as they did by using the word "teenagers".

2) Then they used "have been or currently pregnant" to further expand the number. Another words they are using the possible past (???), in order to boost the number by adding it to the present. Now they have multiplied that first error in 1) boosted by 1/3) x 2).

3) On top of that in reality some of them were not even teenagers as we now know.

Lies(1) x Lies(2) x Lies(3) = MORE LIES.

Now we Know How 35 became 5, after the lies were removed from the equation


That's at least Three lies told in ONE news release done in order to program or brainwash to public with disinformation, so that we somehow would look the other way for their crimes against these people many of whom are completely innocent. That innocents has been exploited by CPS and CPS in a sense has Raped the entire community by taking that innocents, those scars they will carry for the remainder of their lives.


[edit on 24-5-2008 by verylowfrequency]

You cant go to a neighborhood and bust everyone because you think 3 homes are dealing drugs. Its unconstitutional. Let the courts sort it out properly and without gestapo tactics. ..This is America RIGHT?

Wow, I really touched a nerve with someone yesterday. My computer is trying to crash since I posted yesterday, and I've had to change some passwords, etc. Ok, I understand that you're fearful about the government coming in and taking your children away. I do feel sorry for the moms and the little children that this happened to. Very scary, ok? But, I get the vibe that someone is soooo fearful and doesn't want me to voice my opinion. So, for a minute, just put that fear to the side, ok? When you have a group that has collective thought, a different kind of group, that brings up some red flags! There are women who have escaped this group that claim that the women are forced to be sexual objects and brood mares for old men, sick disgusting pedophiles. That brings up more red flags! We are not talking "middle of the road Baptists" here. We don't want another Jim Jones, Waco type of incident. We don't want a bunch of kool-aid drinkers, because their "spirit husbands" said to drink the kool-aid, and we must obey! I wouldn't be a brood mare to some old pedophile, would you? I think not! "Spirit husbands"? Puh-leez! Another name for pedophiles. This is not about leaving the rat race. As a Christian, do you know what I hate? I hate "evil...disguised as religion....hidden from the public view.....deceptive practices......disguised as religion". That's what I hate! And I pray for this hidden evil and deception to be exposed for all of us to view. And it will be!

reply to post by Blueangel7


And if this disgusting evil does come to fruition Ill be the first to say some mens balls need to be chopped off but they need their day in court because like others have posted. The state has released all sorts of evidence that has ALL been shown to not be true otherwise the courts would not have sided in the polygamists favor. Im a punishment fits the crime kind of guy and if these guys are raping 10 year olds then some balls need to be chopped but so far this has been stated by the state but been refuted.

As far as the evil thats disguised and hidden away from public well not only does that happen in religion it happens in government too. So the question is what evil do you believe and frankly I give the benefits of the doubt to the people and not the government till proven otherwise....just my opinion though.

reply to post by Blueangel7


This article from the Houston Chronicle puts the one ton Gorilla on the table much better than I can.

www.chron.com...

CPS of course , is not acting any differently than they do in individual cases. CPS has always been a thorn in the side of poor people. CPS is a source of grief for both parents and children alike. CPS's first foray into mass kidnapping has magnified how tyrannical CPS has always been. If they are not smacked down hard for this mass kidnapping, we will be seeing even more mass kidnappings

here is some highlights, thanks for the links...

•Insufficient investigation of the initial tip and tipster.
•Insufficient investigation at the ranch about who was in immediate danger.
•Treating the entire compound as one household, though there were 19 separate residences.
•Taking all children instead of just the post-pubescent girls who could have been subjected to the feared sexual abuse by older men.
•Insufficient evidence presented at the first hearing for the children.
•The hearing should have been for each individual child, not all in one hearing.
•Shifting burden of proof to parents to prove innocence, rather than having CPS prove guilt.
Amy Warr, an Austin appellate specialist who is working on a response to the state's request to the Supreme Court, said she got involved in the case because of how badly the state has handled it.
She and other lawyers say some of the seized people, especially those who it turns out are 18 or older, have potent federal civil rights lawsuits against the state.

Thanks, Jason

The CPS is saying they can't return the children right away because they're scattered throughout the state and the results of the DNA tests haven't come back.

Why didn't they tag these kid's ears like cattle before they shipped them off. Maybe they could have jotted down on a post-it note which kid was clinging to which crying woman.

"Sir that's my mom. She's raised me for 12 years"

"Shut up you little religious freak! The tests will tell us who your mother is!"

claim that the women are forced to be sexual objects and brood mares for old men

reply to post by Blueangel7


How are these dissenting women any different then the many women of the secular society, that make the same complaints?!
The whole thing reminds me of the saying. "consider not the tiny speck in your brothers eye, until you have first cast out the beam from your own eye".
There are always those, who get so angry about the injustice in this world. That they want to strike out with blind vengeance. The world is full of injustice. If you decide to strike out against it. Know that your actions will be just as unjust as those who you accuse. Because no one is (so saintly and pure) as they delude themselves into believing they are.
That is why we have a legal system, bent towards protecting the rights of the accused. They should comply to that system to the letter. In this case they have not!

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Howie47]

reply to post by ColdWater


I myself am at a loss for why they can't just bring them all back to a central location? Why not allow the children to be back together, in the least?
I am becoming more and more saddened by this, mostly from all the stats I'm reading about CPS.
I know this may sound fake, or whatever, but this big Marine was near tears last night reading some of the testimonies. I thought my adoption process was hard...

reply to post by jasonjnelson


in the early 1900's the age of consent was 12. in the 1930's, girls as young as 13 were married off to older men...60's or 70's of age. this was happening and considered the norm in regular society. In some inuit culture, their version of sex ed was an older man taking a young girl at puberty to bed with him before she was married off. It was the same with the young boys reaching puberty who would be with an older women before he took a bride. In Iran, lipstick is worth many lashes by a whip while lipstick is the norm here. It is our current collective perception of right and wrong that dictates our arrogant stance of invasion of human rights. Rights to raise your children as a parent sees fit. I do not agree with marying a 13yr old girl off but if it is part of the culture of a people, that is also their right by religous beliefs. I feel for any of the judical personel that have to make some decisions that way, It is not where i would want to be. Our society is wrong in many ways. We distroy so much in the name of progress and waste so much because of the cost effectiveness. the decade(s) long drought in Ethiopia was caused in part from pollution particles drifting on weather patterns from europe and north america in the atmisphere to the extent that temp norm of the equator was altered to where the normal yearly flood would not happen. millions died and at present few care. History and or future perception will condem these times and we will evolve some more. Really though...does it matter so much who was or is the president when there are fields to be sowed and water to be brought in the old fashioned way of simplicity? Is it so important to be glued to CNN and the glorified and misleading propoganda that is the norm?. Are we to believe everything they say as truth? the whole deal with the kids reminds me of the second comming of the same old cavalry that pulled children from native tribes and forced them into residential schools. I know a number of these kids (now elders) that suffered greater horrors in residential schools then could ever in their tribe. many sleep even today with there hands on their foreheads because at the residential school if they had their hands under the blankets they were accused of playing with themselves. Many of these then kids were sexually abused and physicaly abused. This from a hypocracy of love thy neighbor so long as they pray to the same invisilble guy as you do showed how little we had evolved in fostering a perception that all men were created equal. Instead it only reinforced what had been going on for centuries, An delusional evolving perception that our way is the right way and cultural respect is burned. The foster care system these days is far from bullet proof. Many kids are abused in foster care and a sliver of those cases actually make it into the news. These poligamist kids in current care were literally abducted and in many ways a trial run at infringment of basic human rights. No different if any one of us were raising our children in the wilderness and didn't have a radio or contact wtih the outside world, the child services, if they could would move in and take your kid away. We spend so much time getting god out of our schools and governments...then when disaster strikes we call out to god to help us?

If anyone or any society, culture be judged, they shouldn't be judged by how their teenagers act or what their teenagers say about them. Teenagers can be raised by the most perfect parents in the most perfect environment; yet they can and do turn on them as if they blame them for every thing wrong in the world.
If people should be judged by anything. Should be how they treat their old people. Once they reach a age of low productivity. Does that society
cast them out. Let them survive or die on their own. With no comfort.
I don't know if the group in question takes care of their old people or not. I do know that the U. S. culture does not deem it a very important issue. To see that the aged are all cared for.

Want to know if and how much a culture cares about others, just see how they care for their own senior citizens.

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." Ronald Reagan

Originally posted by polrwolf

in the early 1900's the age of consent was 12. in the 1930's, girls as young as 13 were married off to older men...

Sheesh in Georgia the age of consent was 14 up until 7 or 8 years ago. Now it is 16.

Originally posted by polrwolfIn Iran, lipstick is worth many lashes by a whip while lipstick is the norm here.

Iran? Maybe Afghanistan under the Taliban, but makeup is quite common in Iran. Women must wear a hijab (head scarf and loose fitting overcoat) but is about it, and in the large cities they surely push it to the limit (heavy makeup, scarves barely covering their hair, tight jeans, etc...).

One issue that has not been addressed here, and may not have been an issue at the FDLS ranch, is how young males are affected by polygamy in a "closed" environment. I have read that polygamist separatist groups have been known to shun their own young sons when they become teenagers because there simply are not enough women to go around when the elders all want several wives. Now apparently many at the ranch were monogamous as well, so perhaps it was not a problem, but it surely can turn into one.

reply to post by polrwolf


Good post but break it up into paragraphs in the future. All blobbed together makes it hard to read.