Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids

reply to post by Sonya610


If these kids had any doubt that the outside world was of the devil and to be avoided at all cost. That doubt has probably been erased!

yea well the polygamists had no right to abuse the kids and make the young women marry older men.
dont forget about the other side of the story.

reply to post by SuperSlovak


Could you please, in all of the factual evidence, point me to where these "young kids" are and the abuse they suffered? And young girls "forced" to marry? I have to say, that is a concept that happens all over the world, all the time, with little condemnation. But it is still not "proven" here. Again, I just want a little evidence. By my calculations, Children in CPS are much more likely to be abused sexually or physically. But I bet that we can't just lump all foster parents into a group and take their kids away? Again, what if they, (tptb) decide that not letting your kids near electricity is abuse? Or not allowing them near the internet. Then what happens to the amish?

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
yea well the polygamists had no right to abuse the kids and make the young women marry older men.
dont forget about the other side of the story.

Its odd because your signature says you laugh because im different i laugh because your all the same....but yet you have a different people getting persecuted for no other reason than being different. There is no proof of abuse and if there was then you wouldnt of had the verdict u had today. The fact is these people were persecuted for no reason or at least no evidence of any of this. So until you show evidence of abuse I have nothing more to say on that. As far as the marrying older that is custom in a lot of countries around the world the daughters will be given off by older men and its been going on for 3000 years. Just recently did it become "unlawful".

reply to post by SuperSlovak


CPS does not protect the innocence of girls in their system. In fact many girls in foster care become pregnant. CPS always puts the newborn babies of its wards on the adoption market. Some people will do anything for a new born. There are only five girls who might be under seventeen. Given the track record of CPS in this case they might not be under seventeen. For this 411 children are suffering. Many of those children are under five. By the addmission of the state those kids were clean and not malnourished. Those 411 kids need to be returned. They are not safe in the Texas foster care system and the state should not be allowed to force the young women in question to adopt out their babies.

reply to post by eradown


Link to CPS stats for 2005

I have been searching for some hard statistics to prove that these kids were in more danger by being ion foster care, but CPS glaringly omits any data related to charges of abuse within the system. I will post some as I find them. A little help please? This thread is getting some attention, and we need to spread this message!

Teenagers Aging Out of Foster Care

Studies show these teens have difficulties making the transition to independence.

A 1998 study found that 12 to 18 months after exiting care, many of these teens have trouble meeting their basic needs:[xlviii]

· 49% were unemployed

· 37% had not yet completed high school (though 90% were attending prior to discharge)

· 32% were receiving public assistance (food stamps & AFDC)

· 12% had been homeless at least once

· 18% had been incarcerated at least once

· 25% of males & 15% of females experienced serious physical victimization

· 44% had difficulty acquiring needed medical care

· only 21% were able to continue to receive mental health services (while 47% had been receiving these prior to discharge)

source


[edit on 22-5-2008 by jasonjnelson]

A study of reported abuse in Baltimore, found the rate of "substantiated" cases of sexual abuse in foster care more than four times higher than the rate in the general population.[2] Using the same methodology, an Indiana study found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population. In group homes there was more than ten times the rate of physical abuse and more than 28 times the rate of sexual abuse as in the general population[2], in part because so many children in the homes abused each other.[3]

· A study of foster children in Oregon and Washington State found that nearly one third reported being abused by a foster parent or another adult in a foster home.[4]

· In a study of investigations of alleged abuse in New Jersey foster homes, the researchers found a lack of “anything approaching reasonable professional judgment” and concluded that “no assurances can be given” that any New Jersey foster child is safe.[5]
· A lawyer who represents children in Broward County, Florida, says in a sworn affidavit that over a period of just 18 months he was made personally aware of 50 instances of child-on-child sexual abuse involving more than 100 Broward County foster children. The official number during this same period: Seven - because until what the lawyer called "an epidemic of child-on-child sexual abuse" was exposed, the child abuse hotline didn't accept reports of such abuse.[6]

· Another Baltimore study, this one examining case records, found abuse in 28 percent of the foster homes studied -- more than one in four.[7]

· A study of cases in Fulton and DeKalb Counties in Georgia found that among children whose case goal was adoption, 34 percent had experienced abuse, neglect, or other harmful conditions. For those children who had recently entered the system, 15 percent had experienced abuse, neglect or other harmful conditions in just one year.[8]

Link to Source-Credit NCCPR

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
Does any of this change the fact that children as young as 14 are being married to men old enough to be their fathers. Can a 14 year old girl who has been taught only what the men at the ranch allow (their prophet leader is a convicted child rapist who encouraged child rape) really know thats how she wants to live her life?

I'm not arguing the legal issues here, just the moral issues.

These children are basically growing up in a closed society that allows no outside contact. Is this really any different than communism or facism, not being aloud to even expand your mind and being told what you are allowed to think and say?

The one thing that really bothers me is the "keep sweet" that the girls are tought. To me that means not objecting to molestation.

True, true- I totally agree with you, but the government effed up and did not do this legally. The whole case is now in danger of falling completely apart, and it is possible that the wrong people were targeted as a result of a dodgy claim.

I dont beleive we will ever see an appropriate governement action when it comes to religious groups-not in a country where Church and State must be separate. It has been my experience that most churches practice a certain amount of "brainwashing", and children are brought up with it. No, nothing like raising your daughters to unconditionally obey men and accept that they have no personal/sexual rights whatsoever. I cant condone that whatsoever.

Truth is, it may take more people within the church breaking free and charging their rapist husbands and church leaders, as the young lady who brought down Warren Jeffs and her stupid ex-husband/cousin did, to break up this trend of misogynistic cultism. I dont feel like the government will be able to do it without more proof from within these cloistered communities.

reply to post by raven bombshell


But why are all communities that separate dumped into this category? There is no evidence to support your generalized claims. And BTW, is it fair that my daughters will grow up to believe that they have to party for ten years out of high school, dating and sleeping around just so that the itch doesn't exist later.
Remember that all ideas are brainwashing, and maybe the church of pop culture has it wrong.
Maybe the rampant drug/ alcohol abuse, the horrific rates of STD's, and number of abortions, and sexual assaults, and depression, and broken homes and dissolved marriages that have taken over as we condemn religion in this country are a better solution to people voluntarily living apart from society. Many countries, all over the world, practice these same things as this group, and yet I hear no cry for those people. It's only brainwashing if it's here.
Anywhere else, it's called a cultural choice.

Think of the mega bucks the system made on this case, of course they will drag it out.

The real story will come once the children are returned to their families and the abuse and neglect they encountered while in custody will be a life long process of PTSD.

My heart has been on the side of right and good on this horrible misjustice, and in this case not only did the courts rule in favor of the light, but with a classic example of how our American system can COME THROUGH at times.

I just pray now that they can all be accounted for and that none of them disapeared as so many in 'protective' custody do.

Blessed Joy!

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by SuperSlovak

 

Could you please, in all of the factual evidence, point me to where these "young kids" are and the abuse they suffered? And young girls "forced" to marry? I have to say, that is a concept that happens all over the world, all the time, with little condemnation. But it is still not "proven" here. Again, I just want a little evidence. By my calculations, Children in CPS are much more likely to be abused sexually or physically. But I bet that we can't just lump all foster parents into a group and take their kids away? Again, what if they, (tptb) decide that not letting your kids near electricity is abuse? Or not allowing them near the internet. Then what happens to the amish?

Don't play dumb it was on CNN it was on larry king it was even on oprah... Girls as young as 16 marrying men on their 30's and having multiple children with them.

And no this does not happen all over the world, well not in civilized communities atleast.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by SuperSlovak]

[edit on 23-5-2008 by SuperSlovak]

reply to post by jasonjnelson


You did not really read my post. I am only referring to those who actually DO marry thier daughters off against their will. I even stated that the wrong people may have been targeted. You are going to extremes saying that the rest of us teach our daughters to lead immoral lives, too. EVERYONE has rights and should be raised to understand what their rights are. In the interviews I have seen on TV of women who have left FLDS it is apparent they are not given decent educations or even taught that they have the right to say no to the marriages.

reply to post by SuperSlovak


I again say, that in this case, the evidence was not presented as such. And if it is so horrible for a sixteen year old to be married, then change the law in the state to accomplish that! 16 is the law! And CPS were taking 27 year olds!
Besides, this is more about the ability of the government to take children from non offending parties just for living in the same community!
state marriage laws
worldwide consent ages

reply to post by raven bombshell


Okay, so I was not thinking about you. I am not assuming that you feel that way, just what our world feeds us. I am an older student in college, I see what girls dress and act like, sorry for the first hand experience.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Oh, I know what you are talking about- I have a nine-yr-old daughter. It is tough, and making the right choices in what to teach your kids is REALLY tough. We have to find a way that doesnt go too far in either direction. I just try to educate my girl so that she can make choices based on reality (that's hard), use good judgement, and not follow the masses. I dont know if it is working yet While taking your children off to some compound away from all of the horrors in the world may sound great in some ways ( I have thought about it) , it is problematic as well.
Also, the fact that we dont know what is happening in these compounds adds to the perception that they are doing something wrong. I mean, why are they hiding? What are they doing? I dont think it is true in every case, but we have already seen some really bad stuff in the courts- all over TV. The imagination will fill in the blanks for us. It isn't like the Amish, who are extreme in all ways, denouncing electricity and such. They dont seem as secretive, so we dont judge them the same way.

CPS are the terrorist here just like the ATF & FBI were the terrorist at WACO.

Thank god, the appellate court overruled and demanded the local court complies within 7 days or it will take over the entire case order their release. The order is just a respectful way for the higher court to give the lower court the opportunity to do the right thing in the guise of maintaining control - so they don't completely lose face.

So what if they find 4-5 young women under 17 pregnant - that doesn't excuse or justify them taking hundreds of children. I suspect if you take 400 young people in that age group in any school in America you will find at least that many pregnant.

Notice how a couple weeks ago CPS claimed that had 35 teenage women pregnant. Now there down to 5 or less. The lies couldn't stand up to reality.

Like any other neighborhood they need to examine each case one child and one parent at a time. I'm sure each of these households have slightly different rules and situations, no different than our neighborhoods. Just because they are a gated religious community doesn't make them all criminals because theres a few among them.

Now I don't think I agree with these peoples way of life, but the reality of it is I really don't know what their lives are like. One thing is for sure they look allot healthier than most Americans.

Has anyone noticed how these people have such perfect complexions?

Obviously they are eating better than most Americans, natural foods, no soda pop, no fast foods etc.

Brainwashed, So they're not brainwashed consumers programmed by television to buy buy buy and act act act.

As far as multiple sex partners don't over half Americans have multiple sex partners even when married? I have more respect for people that are truthful to one another about their relationships like these people, than doing it behind their backs like most Americans.

I think they are just a threat to those who want everyone to be the same as them. How dare they not comply with our norms.


[edit on 23-5-2008 by verylowfrequency]

CPS needs to really take inventory of their actions and think whether or not they are doing something good or bad for these kids. They friggin ransacked this place with guys in body armor with machine guns and APC's! pretty friggin ridiculous.

The CPS folks involved with this should be handcuffed and held accountable for their actions.

They're doing this in steps
a few weeks ago it was the first polygamist sect in Texas and now this. What next? And did they really need the armored personnel carriers?!

-ChriS

[edit on 23-5-2008 by BlasteR]

reply to post by raven bombshell


Raven, I don't want to pick on you, but this is ridiculous! Just to be honest, there is no reason why someone cannot be , as you call it, "secretive", while I call it, "privacy". I cannot agree more, that indoctrinating some young girl to get married at 16. But the law says that 16 is legal. If it is not, then change the friggin law! Maybe these people don't agree with us, but unless they are holding these girls against their will, (and they are not, they go into town all the time) then I don't want to hear about it. There are MANY people and groups in this country that I don't agree with, but it's not my place to tell them theirs. Sorry, but liberty for all, or are you not defending that on my other thread about gays in the military?

reply to post by verylowfrequency


I can't add to your comment, but I thought it was well framed and right on!! Star from me!
We need to understand what this is really about read the stats I put up above this. The fact is, CPS has a hell of a lot more history of abuse than this sect does.

reply to post by verylowfrequency


Star for you great post I couldnt of said it better.