The Free Will Myth?

reply to post by JPhish


While this is a nice math trick, it hardly proves free will. Sorry.

Let's try it with prime numbers:

5 & 7

I like 5

11 & 13

I like 11

17 & 19

I like 19

23 & 31

I like 31

5 + 11 + 19 + 31 = 66

BUT it does not equal 66...what happened to the plan!

7 + 13 + 17 + 23 = 60


So, your example of 'free will' is bound by contraints? It only works within certain parameters (i.e. consecutive integers)? Then, how exactly, is your will 'free' when bound by laws?

[edit on 23-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

This is thewill of God, my sanctification, that I abstain from immorality and learn to possess my own vessel in sanctification and honor. For God did not call me to be impure, but to live a holy life. (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, 7)

Does that mean I am powerless to sin because Gods perfect will is that I be perfected like Christ?

No, Gods sovereign will is that I have the freedom to choose. So he will allow me to make mistakes in my freedom.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Yes, you are powerless...(without God). God created you and me to be spiritually weak. You have to look at your heart.

Please check out the link I gave in the other thread. I imagine every question you have can be answered there. But, here is an answer for this question:

As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.

I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamatory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds. We cannot force God's ways into OUR WAYS. Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.

God plainly speaks at times, and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mysterious ones:

"For My thoughts ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:8-9).

Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer. Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't? Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't. Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts? Yes there is:

"Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 2:5).

Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God. They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind.

"But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).

As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higher powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL. When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!

Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will." And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions. But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN. He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.

I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL-- MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.

And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him-- He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T! And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God:

"For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).

It all starts with God, not with us:

"We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

And so here is the answer to your question:

BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.

AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave his such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever realize the marvelous highest of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grant to you "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

reply to post by Freenrgy2


OK I read it. It just sounds like a description of Gods sovereignty to me. Its true we are powerless against our sin nature - we were born with it. Adam was not. Even with God - I still have to struggle against my flesh as the Bible charges us to do.

I mean what's the point of this doctrine? Semantics? Effectively you are still charged with the same duty to make hard choices. The net result is it is still "on you" to ask God for help to live righteous. To tell the truth when a lie would be easier, to forgive someone you'd rather be angry with, to live a life pleasing to God. To fight against your sin nature.

It sure feels like free will - when I make a hard choice. The rest is pie in the sky theory and not very practical toward leading a Christian life.

reply to post by Freenrgy2


you totally missed the entire point.

The equation does not serve to prove that free will exits, nor that predestination exists. It's a mathematical proof to PROVE that predestination and free will can coexist at the same time. It's mathematically sound.

I was showing how even if you choose the complete opposite of choices, you can still end up with the exact same outcome. But that wasn't even the plan. The equations being inverted and still supplying the same answer was just a humorous side joke to show that it really doesn't matter what your choices are.

You were being geared to get a score of 10 or higher. That's it. As simple as that. I mentioned it in the actual post . . .


[edit on 5/24/2008 by JPhish]

Laughable.

All that most of these posts are saying is:

"I accept I've been brought up and indoctrinated into a belief"

"The people you say have indoctrinated me, I love and trust."

"The people I love and trust would never do this to harm me, therefore what they tell me must be true."

If free will exists, then you should be able to control your thoughts. Can you decide what your next 10 thoughts are going to be? Give it a try.

Originally posted by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
If free will exists, then you should be able to control your thoughts. Can you decide what your next 10 thoughts are going to be? Give it a try.

I can breathe without thinking about it, and without calling it fate. Same way I don't blink manually or put any concious power into holding the weight of my head up. That's instinct.

The simple answer to this question is that God gave man free will because forced love is rape. Would you rather have a partner that loved you and followed you to the end of the earth because they chose to do so, or because you programed them to do so, or held a gun to their head? God gave us free will because he wants to spend eternity with those who want to spend eternity with him.

Also, if anyone thinks that we don't have free will if God knows already what we are going to do, think of a question that you could ask you child. Now knowing your child as well as you do, is there a good chance you know what their answer will be before you even as the question? Now ponder how well God knows us. We still choose, God just knows our answer before he even asks.

[edit on 31/5/08 by doctorex]

the notion of no free will bothers me but i couldnt put my finger on it. at least untill now

if god did not give us free will, it esentially means that everything is pointless.

without free will, life is pointless. its like a game of chess... that god is playing against himself. there just no point.

everything you do is something god has already ordained. so to hell with personal accountability. if your in god's disfavor, then there is nothing you can do to change it. and its not like your going to learn anything from your mistakes, because none of you future choices matter either.

the idea of a universe without free will is offensive to me because it paints god as being cruel. we suffer because that is what god intended. if we die, then that is what god intended. if we arent resurrected because we were really bad, well guess what, its what god intended.

even from a philosophical point of view, thats BS

no free will is not something that can be given; so maybe "gGD was confused and freewill goes to woman and vice for what was given woman by her creator.

i suppose you can say that the choice of free will was made before falling into a form that is man