Dutch cartoonist arrested on suspicion of violating hate speech laws

I have just one question. How many cartoons are published in Dutch media that mock Jews or Judaism? If the answer is zero, then I think it is fair for Christians and Muslims to demand the same level of respect for themselves that are automatically afforded the Jewish community.

Here in the US, Muslims can be called towel-heads and no one bats an eye. A Muslim congressman can be asked by Glenn Beck how he can prove that he is not sympathetic to terrorists. But, if you were to ask a Jewish congressman to prove that he does not have dual loyalties with Israel -- he would be fired as an anti-semitic. Criticism of Israeli policy is considered anti-semitic by the State Dept. The New Testament is even considered anti-semitic by the State Dept.

I believe in free-speech. I believe that people should be allowed to criticize any and all peoples, religions, etc. As long as no one is calling for violence against or discrimination against a group -- I have no problem with it.

But, it just seems to me that no one bats an eye when people are JAILED in Germany and Canada for questioning the holocaust (even if they acknowledge it happen and only question the number of Jews killed or the method of killing them), yet everyone yells "free speech" when someone gets in trouble for insulting Muslims.

I am sensitive about this issue because I am married to a Muslim. I'm Christian and I don't plan to convert. My husband moved to this country when he was very young and although he cherishes his heritage, he has embraced the American lifestyle. I actually do not know any Muslims whose wives cover up. So the idea of Muslims taking over a country strikes me as a bit of fear mongering. I understand the concern and think countries have the right to restrict immigration to control the situation -- but I think it can be done without demonizing anyone.

After 9/11 (which wasn't the work of Muslim terrorists but terrorists within the US govt), I had to live with a lot of comments and suspicious looks from people. We sucked it up and dealt with it b/c we knew it was motivated by fear. But when Muslims are fair target, but Jews -- even though they are violating numerous international laws and UN resolutions daily -- can never be criticized, it angers me. Either hate speech laws protect all groups or get rid of the laws altogether. They can't be applied solely to protect one group.

reply to post by scarlett


There isnt a difference here, I think either christians, muslims AND jews get ridiculed here by some people, so shouldnt be too much of a problem. Its one of the best things in our lill country tbh, we can say, write or paint what we think (at least I thought we could) as long as its a bit civilized. We dont even have things "bleeped out" on TV and radio....nothin...
So its kinda shockin to see something wich is obviously satire, wether if its the kinda humor one likes or not, to be suddenly a crime. I've seen dutch stand up comedians go WAY further then those comics.

reply to post by scarlett


No one I know considers the term towel head publicly acceptable. I see plenty of criticism of Jews and Israel on a regular basis, and essentially all Jewish religious figures.

The real differences is that the Jewish community doesn't hold huge public demonstrations over cartoons.

You are a Christian woman married to a Muslim man, just out of curiosity, do you know any Muslim women married to Christian men, or non-Muslim men?

Originally posted by InSanE1
Here is a sample of what's happening in Canada when it comes to free speech :

"Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value."
- Canadian Human Rights Commission (CHRC) investigator Dean Steacy.

Freedom of speech is a thing of the past.

Quite the contrary to whatever your CHRC chap says, the concept of Freedom of Speech is an English idea set in stone by the Bill of Rights, passed in 1689, from which almost every constitution and Common Law in the world descend.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by scarlett

 

You are a Christian woman married to a Muslim man, just out of curiosity, do you know any Muslim women married to Christian men, or non-Muslim men?

In the Netherlands, it is likely. Especially Iranian and Lebanese women like men of other races often. I can vouch for that.

That is good, because that is the key, when the two cultures start to intermarry, women and men from both sides, then they will find peace. As long as Honor killings, mainly the murder of Muslim women for marrying non-muslim men, are allowed to continue, the two communities will remain segregated, and the hostilities will continue to get worse.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm afraid we have a long way to go here in Holland and it isn't fixed by just intermarriage.

There's more factors at work here. for instance, young Morrocan kids who drop out of school and make a criminal living for themselves. That happens a lot here. A lot of these guys, just to scare people off, promote the extrimist muslim vieuws, just to scare people off and rebel against society.

Because politic correctness was a very popular item in the nineties, it was not done to talk about this because it would only demonize the group and place them further outside society. In a way, this is happening now and the muslim society as a whole gets a bad name.

reply to post by cappuccino


You are also going to have to start electing politicians who admit the problem, and are willing to start doing something about it, and most importantly, start controlling immigration.

This rise in gas prices, and therefore food prices and all other goods is not going to go away. We are at the beginning of a world wide economic change due to the on going decline in quality crude oil. The vast population of young and soon to be hungry Muslims will be flooding Europe soon.

There is a line between freedom of speech and spreading hatred. To an individual his cartoons are crossing this line, and this individual is in his/her right to file a complaint.

"We suspect him of insulting people on the basis of their race or belief, and possibly also of inciting hate," she said.

I am familiar with his cartoons, and back then to me he seems to be only picking on the muslims (because I must have missed the cartoons when he was hitting other groups).

What you must be reminded is that Holland was occupied by the Nazis in WW2. And these anti-hate laws based on religion or race are here for a reason, which unfortunately many Dutch people already forgot. "Never again."

reply to post by cappuccino


Yes it's sad to see that Moroccan kids are often so extremist in their views. I've known Turkish, Afghans, Lebanese, Iranians, and Egyptians when I lived in Holland. Usually I've found that they (the ones I've known) are all very nice people. There are always exceptions though.

reply to post by TheBandit795


Might have to do with the fact they still have closer ties to their home-country, thus wanting to maintain an own identity. If I'm not mistakin, they arent even allowed to get rid of the Morocan passport(nationality), and only have a Dutch one. But then again, there are more countries with that rule me finx

The problem with a mix of cultures is not the interacting between the lot but the coverage of the media. News must be interesting, especially by the commercial stations, so it leans merely on extreme situations. What news is there in a story about people being good neighbours? Neah, that’s no good.

So you have a majority of people getting along perfectly and a media that only reports the situations where the situation is different. So the image of the mixed culture becomes coloured resulting in a commune sliding down towards that misaimed picture.

This cartoonist walks a thin line that is fenced by a law against racism. Walking this line, he must be aware that the line is easily crossed. One better be careful stepping around for one can cross easily risking being arrested. And that is what happened. I don’t see a problem with the cartoons but can imagine that someone on the receiving end will and call on the law for that seems to be the civil way to dispute differences nowadays.

Huraaah says the media jumping on top of it.

Exactly the reason why I kicked out my tele. My reality does not compute with what is ‘news wordy.’ No problems with whateverreligious and whateverrace people in my life.

No news here, fortunately.

I thought the purpose of cartoons were to make light of serious situations, relieve the tension. Personally, I am leary of people who can't laugh at themselves or their personal beliefs. It is like they refuse to recognize their own fallibility. Humorless people are no fun to be around, and not all that trustworthy either.

I lean towards your point of view regarding the lack of self mockery and the waaaaay too serious world view but I recognise also that humour is not an universal emotion like pain, love, hate, happiness, sadness, etc. Humour is a personal thing.

I for one walk away as soon as someone is about to tell a joke. Those good ones mostly lack any relation with an actual situation or the creation of such. I find them embarrassing at the least. Humour is in my opinion a moment, there is no use in trying to repeat something that was at the right time once.

There are people however that jump up to gather around someone stating s/he knows a good one. They’re good right but I rather listen to myself peeing.

The cartoons Nekschot makes are heavily based on a particular situation. Once the circumstances fall into the background the joke standing alone is easily pulled out of proportion.

I don’t believe there are humourless people, I believe there are different views on what is humour. If people just walk away to take a leak when something is not they’re cup of tea and the other party respecting that, I bet it would be a better world. But no, the trivial becomes a war, as usual.

reply to post by cappuccino


good to know that cartoonists like him are arrested...
these people in the name of freedom of speech spew out vile propaganda creating hate

reply to post by manson_322


ohhhh, did he hurt your feelings? as stated above: the lack of self reflection and self mockery in religious groups is astounding. Nekschots holds a mirror in front of every religous group. Take note of it and think about. Have you ever seen a cartoonist walk into a subwaystation and blow himself up?


Don't think so...

Wolf

There is a term for people who walk away whenever something is said they don't like, who can't stand to face an opinion that differs from their own, they are called snobs. Give me more people with humor, and less people with overly develop senses of self indignation any day.

Manson

Yours is the attitude that leads to the formation of oppressive governments. Freedom of Speech is one of the most sacred rights in the Western world for good reason, and lack of respect for freedom of speech is one the the primary reasons backwards third world nations remain backwards. Humorless people tend to lead humorless lives, if they can't take a joke, then move back to the countries where there lack of humor is the very reason they live in an oppressive backwards nation.

Originally posted by poet1b
.

Manson

Yours is the attitude that leads to the formation of oppressive governments. Freedom of Speech is one of the most sacred rights in the Western world for good reason, and lack of respect for freedom of speech is one the the primary reasons backwards third world nations remain backwards. Humorless people tend to lead humorless lives, if they can't take a joke, then move back to the countries where there lack of humor is the very reason they live in an oppressive backwards nation.

the same reason so called 'freeddoms' led to collapse of Rome

ohhhh, did he hurt your feelings? as stated above: the lack of self reflection and self mockery in religious groups is astounding. Nekschots holds a mirror in front of every religous group. Take note of it and think about. Have you ever seen a cartoonist walk into a subwaystation and blow himself up?

don't enforce political correctness and such things will begin happening

[edit on 24-5-2008 by manson_322]

Originally posted by poet1b
Wolf

There is a term for people who walk away whenever something is said they don't like, who can't stand to face an opinion that differs from their own, they are called snobs. Give me more people with humor, and less people with overly develop senses of self indignation any day.

Don’t, let me rephrase that: Do not twist my words. It doesn’t suit someone that states s/he respects different opinions than their own. The subject was humour and I made an example that I walk away to take a leak when someone is going to tell a -hey I know/heard a good one- bloody stupid joke. I did not mention opinions different than my own. For the give me people with humour; yes please, mine.

Originally posted by poet1b

Manson

Yours is the attitude that leads to the formation of oppressive governments. Freedom of Speech is one of the most sacred rights in the Western world for good reason, and lack of respect for freedom of speech is one the the primary reasons backwards third world nations remain backwards. Humorless people tend to lead humorless lives, if they can't take a joke, then move back to the countries where there lack of humor is the very reason they live in an oppressive backwards nation.

How can you grand everyone freedom of speech and in the same breath state that people that don’t share YOUR sense of humour should be banned from your country?

Now let’s juuuuust look a liiiittle back here:

who can't stand to face an opinion that differs from their own, they are called snobs.

come back down poet.