Federal court rules against military gays policy

reply to post by Bunch


I agree that separate showers, and bunks, will solve a HUGE problem before it becomes one. That said, if all customs and courtesies were followed, then there would be no problem. I would worry (only slightly) that the sex drive of the average male might lead to some sort of major scandal. I can already imagine how our idiot selves at 18 would conduct ourselves if given what we believed to be a green light to break decorum. I say this slightly tongue in cheek. I remain resolved that the point of this for me is the need fort EVERYONES feelings to be accounted for when making such progressive moves. It will only breed contempt in any other fashion.

Originally posted by Bunch

The other thing got to be comfort not only for straight members but for homosexuals members also, make separate showers and dormitories this has to be a must at least during the first couple of years.

Do you suggest they have separate water fountains too?

Adults - fighting for their country and freedom.

They can deal with it.

Honestly, I dont care either way. However, I am not, nor never served in the military; therefore, I do not believe my opinion on it would matter anyways. Really, how could it?

I believe only those who have served or presently serve really can tell what the affects on it would be....if at all. Only they know.

Im all for gays being treated exactly how straights are. But the military is a VERY unique situation. It is not like going to a regular job, nor is it like living out in the civilian world - that I know.

So, I look forward to hearing from more members of the military, on what their honest opinions are

I agree with Annie...this is this first gay/straight discussion I've ever seen on here or participated in that was not a full out assault on the opposing viewpoint. As it is those types of debates that I usually engage in, I find myself at a loss.

Will the segregation of open homosexual soldiers help the situation, perhaps. However, we (the Gays) are far too proud a tribe to allow something like that to happen to us. It would feel singularly demoralizing. If I were a solder, that's probably exactly how I would feel about it....good enough to kill the enemy but not good enough to share the same bunk house with my fellow soldiers. You might feel the same way if you were to reverse the situation or put yourself in our shoes.

A solution has been proffered here in this thread - I just don't know if it's the right solution.

Originally posted by Annee

Do you suggest they have separate water fountains too?

Adults - fighting for their country and freedom.

They can deal with it.

That doesn't seem right to me. Otherwise, the same could be said for Gays. Greeneyedleo said it best. The military is a very, VERY unique situation, and this is a delicate topic. It's amazing to me that those who say get over it see it as such a black and white issue, when it's admittedly complex!

reply to post by WickedStar


My brother and I just discussed this thread, and oddly enough my brother proffered the same idea; a separate barracks for gays, or at least one where all those who didn't care could join. Knowing my brother, I was shocked, as I thought he would have thought this suggestion obtuse. However, as we are both veterans, he also pointed out that this was for the protection of those who were gay, as many think like "I" (he said "you",and pointed at me) do. Now, I don't think that I am all that off base. I think that people on both coasts don't understand the deep, non-hate related feelings that many have in this country. Look at it this way. Compared to Iran, a country where gays "don't" exist, I think that our country is more than tolerant. But at what point do one's persons core values and beliefs become less or more important than another's?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Bunch

The other thing got to be comfort not only for straight members but for homosexuals members also, make separate showers and dormitories this has to be a must at least during the first couple of years.

Do you suggest they have separate water fountains too?

Adults - fighting for their country and freedom.

They can deal with it.

Have you ever use common showers?? I would let you in on a little secret ... I am not comfortable taking a shower with anyone near me straight, gay whatever, so does many other members for a variety of reason to include fear of sexual abuse or harrasment, religion or just pure shyness.

Again this is an issue of making everyone comfortable, if you dont have this it could cause morale problems that could undermine the cohesiveness, effectiveness, physical and/or mental health of individuals that would ultimately is going to affect readiness and mission accomplishment.

Now would you take that risk? Or just take some precautionary measures to make sure that the mission is accomplished?. I personally take the precautionary route.

I'm going into the Air Force in the next few months and when I was enlisting I found it interesting how much emphasis was put on the current policy towards homosexuality. Personally I think that the don't ask, don't tell policy was a step in the right direction as opposed to flat out banning gays from joining. But I think that mindsets are changing enough where I think that our military could handle an open policy for gays responsibly. Granted, it'll likely be ugly the first few years if gays are allowed to openly join. But I think in the long run it'd be worth it not to deny perfectly good men and women the opportunity to serve the country they love and not have to hide who they are.

Now as for how I'd react, I personally wouldn't have too much issue with it. Now I'd be a bit uncomfortable with a gay guy wanting a relationship with me that's a bit more than friendship, but that's a very normal thing even between straight guys and girls depending on circumstances. While I still have yet to be taught the UCMJ I figure that using current policies on straight relationships and applying them to gays would probably provide a satisfactory solution to any issues that may arise.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson

Originally posted by Annee

Do you suggest they have separate water fountains too?

Adults - fighting for their country and freedom.

They can deal with it.

That doesn't seem right to me. Otherwise, the same could be said for Gays. Greeneyedleo said it best. The military is a very, VERY unique situation, and this is a delicate topic. It's amazing to me that those who say get over it see it as such a black and white issue, when it's admittedly complex!

But that's just it - - it is NOT a delicate topic. It is Black and White- .

Soldiers are soldiers - they are adults - responsible enough to use weapons to defend our freedoms - and make other human beings dead.

It is NOT complicated - - unless someone tries to make it complicated.

I would be unbelievably insulted and feel like I was being treated as a child.

Originally posted by cyberdude78 Now I'd be a bit uncomfortable with a gay guy wanting a relationship with me that's a bit more than friendship.

You honestly fear a gay guy trying to force himself on you?

Would you try to force yourself on a woman?

reply to post by Annee


And just as I thought that we were making headway on this debate, or at least coming to a mutual understanding. It is complex. It may not seem so to you, but telling a large swath of our population that they are just plain wrong, is not very helpful. I opened this thread to discuss the very real probability that in less than 20 years, gays have gone from being criminals in most states to it not being a big deal. But the military is very different. At least the Marines were. It's a different animal friend, I'm sorry, but that's true.

Originally posted by WickedStar

Will the segregation of open homosexual soldiers help the situation, perhaps. However, we (the Gays) are far too proud a tribe to allow something like that to happen to us. It would feel singularly demoralizing. If I were a solder, that's probably exactly how I would feel about it....good enough to kill the enemy but not good enough to share the same bunk house with my fellow soldiers. You might feel the same way if you were to reverse the situation or put yourself in our shoes.

Like I said earlier I have seen and I also friend with some gay and lesbian that are curently serving and we have had this discussion many times. They have even told me what they would want to see or not to see from other gay members if the "ban" is lifted.

They agree with me and I with them of how this "integration" more like openness should take place without affecting morale and mission effectivenss.

You say that gays are too proud to allow be segregated, but in the conversations that I have all I can sense is deep feeling for the to be allowed to serve their country first and foremost. They are members of the U.S. military that happen to be gay not gays that serve in the U.S. military.

To serve in the military means that sometimes you are going to live by a different set of rules that those who live in the civilian community, thats the price we pay to do what we love.

reply to post by Annee


He didn't say force himself on someone, or the other way around. He said he would be uncomfortable with a male pursuing him. Why is that so wrong? It is not something that comes up in hetero-male relationships. All of a sudden someone wants to be more than friends... it can leave many feeling vulnerable, which leads to backlash. Many males in the military are this impetuous. They act without thinking because they are charged full of testosterone. I see many posts daily that accuse them of just that, for me to believe that the general consensus digresses. It would be a mess not to consider the feelings of so many.
And p.s., I don't expect essays, but I liked the trend of this being more than a back and forth thread, you know?

I would like for you guys to do some research to sexual assault and harrasment cases in the military, we already have had many cases male attacking males, and female attacking females, rarely has been reported as an assault of a gay person on a straight individual, but I have seen it the other way were a straight person would attack another service member that they thought they were gay or other cases that were alcohol was the main factor.

This is currently happening in our military, everyone needs to be protected from sexual harrasment /attack, hazing or any other thing that can hurt morale or the mission.

Social prejudice is man-made.

Military needs to be treated as adults - not children. Period.

Separate but Equal should never be allowed.

That is my honest adult opinion. And at 62 - I qualify.

reply to post by Bunch


I will concede that I am not a solider. I understand that serving in the Military is a stressful/different situation all around and that the rules one must live by change dramatically once enlisted; however, I do not know that like you do. Because you either live it or have lived it. That being said, I'm going to sit out and watch how this unfolds. I'd much rather see military personnel discuss this as it affects you directly.

Congratulations on a fantastic thread JasonJNelson!

Cheers!

Originally posted by Annee
Social prejudice is man-made.

Military needs to be treated as adults - not children. Period.

Separate but Equal should never be allowed.

That is my honest adult opinion. And at 62 - I qualify.

And I agree with you on everything you said.

But this is the bottom line with the military: Mission acomplishment.

Anything else is a distant very distant second and I agree it should be that way, the moment we loose focus on mission accomplishment there would be no reason to have a military.

The military is not a place to advance any kind of social, political or any sort of agenda.

With that said the military has change overtime and this is not the first time that an issue like this has presented itself, first was allowing african american to serve, then to integrate them, then allow them to serve some positions that they were deem "not apt to perform" like pilots ond other.

After the african-american integration, women integration follow suit, and they had to knock less barriers than those before them, because the military had already learn their lesson, now women intergration caught the military unprepared to deal with issues like sexual harrasment, rape, hazing and other issues that presented when this took place, and that we still believe it or not had not fully address and its been more than 50 years.

For members of the gay community that were to serve in a open military, I think its going to be easier for them that for those other groups, granted like I already said there would be the need to take some precautionay measures, but they would benefits inmensely of the barriers that were already broken by african-americans and women.

When it comes to the points about heterosexuals being uncomfortable showering and living amongst gay military members, we are assuming that everyone is totally sure of their orientation. We all know that in the past several years it has become popular to be bi or homosexual amongst the young folks, and that is exactly who is being recruited right now. What if their "gay phase" fizzles and they want to move to the hetero dorms?

And that brings me to the next point: Are the gay members going to wear a big red G on thier uniform or something? Are we going to offer "separate but equal facilities" ?

Just take all references to homosexuality out of the UCMJ and stop the annual Homosexuality Awareness Training (no joke, they do that in the AF-I am a former member). Then move on. Yeah, just move on. Nothing groundbreaking is going to happen, except maybe you will see two guys/girls kiss when they are out of uniform. That already happens anyway.

Zero tolerance policies for sexual harassment will cover all of the problems that people think are going to happen. Let everyone have thier own shower- NO ONE likes the gang shower! It's disgusting to most people. You dont have time in basic training to oggle anyone else, anyway.

This is a good thread and discussion. Thank you OP.

LOL - being chronologically semi-ancient - - I've been through quite a few social changes.

I remember how dramatic they were at the time and how silly they seem now.

Hence my "baptism by fire" philosophy. Just - GIT-R-DONE!!!

The one that still gets me is you had no right to your school or medical records. You had to sue the government to see them. The craziest part is - society fully accepted this.

Originally posted by Bunch

For members of the gay community that were to serve in a open military, I think its going to be easier for them that for those other groups, granted like I already said there would be the need to take some precautionay measures, but they would benefits inmensely of the barriers that were already broken by african-americans and women.

I agree. Not saying special counselors and severe reprimands should not be put in place.

Oh don't even get me started on the abuses of women in service. But I would not take the right to join - back for any reason. The fight for equality continues.