Why Aliens have not visited Earth.

Do I believe in life forms on far off planets? You bet. Do I think they have visited our planet and abducted humans, and fly in cool UFO's? Absolutely not.

In my opinion we won't ever see aliens come to earth. They simply can't exist as a civilization for that amount of time to achieve such a feat. For a civilization to mature and expand it would have to learn galactic space travel at a colossal level within x amount of years or something like this will eventually befall them.

1. Planet resources will be exhausted (within a ten thousand years?)

2. Meteor destroys habitat

Local Space travel is needed to thwart an incoming meteor and the means to destroy the meteor

3. Ice age occurs

How will they have the power to change the weather on a global basis?

4. Planet warms up massively

How will they have the power to change the weather on a global basis?

5. Nearby Star goes Supernova

They are bound to die here unless they left the vicinity well before. They would have to cross the light barrier which is not possible.

Maybe they even send out probes to far away planets with seeds of themselves and over millions of years they grow to become what their ancestors were, whilst they stay and fry. That would be one way of keeping the life cycle going, BUT they will be stuck with the above scenario once again.

Your thoughts?

a quote from dr. herman obert " we cannot take credit for our record advancement in certain scientific fields alone, we have been helped and *we have been helped by people of other worlds*

~Dr. Herman obert Nasa space scientist, 1972

sorry but i personally i think life is more like fuzzy logic in fact even more fluid than that.

hope i make sense and i'm not trying to be disrespectful

just my 33 pence worth.

good post!, flagged and starred my freind.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by survivor]

[edit on 21-5-2008 by survivor]

In the last century we have advanced from horse drawn to cars and rockets.

In my personal opinion, since it only took 100 years of advancement to get that far, just think how far into space we will have progressed in the next 100 years.
With artificial intelligence around the corner, with limitless intelligence we might be exploring our galaxy faster than you think.

Who's to say that any other life form used our physics? Purhaps they advanced much much faster than us, were far more intelligent and didn't have the issue of politics to prevent advancement into space?

You're basing your opinions on human advancement, which might be extremely slow in contrast to other lifeforms - we might be extremely dim-witted compared to other species.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by dodgygeeza]

I also highly doubt that aiens are here now, were here before or will land in foreseeable feature. Just not because technically for us it is still impossible.
I simply can see no reason for them to come here. None. You can say that my logic is human and flawed, but until i will see/hear/smell/touch creature with different logic which is capable of at least intra planetary travel - i see no reason to change my opinion.

The question of whether or not anything has shown up would, I think, take rather more in the way of omniscience than anything us ATS'ers are capable of.

We can only guess because we don't have the facts.

reply to post by dodgygeeza

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hi Geez, maybe your a bit whoa abit way
anyway i don't think we are retarded

reply to post by survivor

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Sorry, I don't understand


Can you retype that please?

Sorry

[edit on 21-5-2008 by dodgygeeza]

sorry i saved a draft of my post and it hasn't or i haven't posted it correctly - it will be deleted.

sincerest apologies

[edit on 21-5-2008 by survivor]

While I think you make a good argument for the pitfalls any species developing technology is likely to encounter, I doubt that the chances that one (probably more) species could survive these problems is zero.

In other words, while yes, these are issues, they are not insurmountable, nor should we expect any of these issues to be the end all for every species the universe potentially holds.

In fact, Humans are currently within the window of survival. We have the potential within the next 100 years to begin to colonize our solar system, and various space outposts placed at La Grange coordinates throughout the system.

Moving offworld will necessarily elliminate the 'all of our eggs are in one basket' problem, and things like Asteroid impact to the planet on an ELE level will cease to be a threat to Humans, and only remain a threat to our homeworld.

I'll do my best to address your points individually, since your post was very well thought out, I feel each point deserves a response...



As addressed above, I believe there is a window of survivability, and Humans are currently in it.



You are assuming that within that 10,000 year span that a species will not evolve a better method of resource utilization. I don't think that's a safe assumption.

Within the next decade green technology will begin to produce more than 50% of the world's power needs. Studies are currently underway here in California to harness the tidal power along the coast using wave farms to create electricity.

Additionally, I believe that biomass is the power source of the future, and algae grows off of CO2 (so there is an obvious solution to the greenhouse problems we are facing). The oceans suck up CO2 from the atmosphere, and algae feed off of it. If you were to stick a pipe far enough down into the ocean, CO2 will come out the top of the pipe (no joke, that's for real). In this manner we can harvest CO2 from the ocean, as fuel for cultured algae (growing biomass) and at the same time be lowering the content of CO2 in the ocean, which will in turn allow the ocean (like the giant sponge it is) to draw more CO2 from the atmosphere, and our global warming problems are over.

Heck give our species 10,000 years, and I'll bet we'll come up with even better methods of resource utilization.



Totally true, and totally possible, but if we get a few footholds offworld, that problem is no longer a threat to our entire species. In fact, building space stations inside existing asteroids (drilling them out like we would drill out a tunnel here on Earth) makes a lot of sense, and it's an idea any species with a local asteroid belt could exploit for a lot less energy than building a similar vessel from scratch materials launched from the homeworld.



Well, if 'they' leave their homeworld altogether (as a Type II Civilization might) this is no longer an issue, however climate change can be addressed, as detailed above.



Same answer as for #3



This is true, however a Star's Supernova is usually contained to the heliosphere of the system itself. What I think you might be referencing here is a Gamma Ray Burst, which could wipe out entire systems at once.

That's a much better argument on your original thoughtline, but GRBs aren't exactly common, and we have observable evidence of systems much older than our own proving that GRBs in a local vicinity wiping a system out are the exception, and not the rule (as we can observe thus far).



They wouldn't have to cross the light barrier, just have a good enough understanding of the stars around them (and their potential for near term death) in order to get a good head start

Also, as mentioned above, in the case of a supernova, they would only have to leave the system's local space, they wouldn't have to travel all the way to another system necessarily, especially if they are using a power source that doesn't depend on thier star (like matter/antimatter reactors, etc.)




This last part is a well known theory called Panspermia (or directed Panspermia, as a seeding technique). And once again, I feel all of the above mentioned obstacles can be overcome. I feel Humans will do so in fact (although I might be wrong ).


Thanks for a well thought out post. I'll give it a star and flag, even in disagreement.

-WFA

As has already been said, it may not take as long as you think. If the aliens have more "intelligence" than us, then their technology may advance faster than here on Earth.

Out of resources? There are workarounds for that problem...
1) Recycling
2) Mining asteroids and other planets

Meteors? Mass extinction impact events aren't very common. Also, we're in the early stages of developing ways to stop such asteroids, so who knows what can happen with a little more technology?

Climate change? They can still have food with the help of technolgy.

Nearby supernova? Not very common.

How do you know they haven't found a way to break the light barrier? We aren't the masters of existence. We could be wrong. There could be a way to break it or even a way to bypass it (without breaking it at all). Teleportation? Stargates? Wormholes? I don't know, but you don't know either.

If it actually is impossible to break light speed, then that still doesn't make anything impossible. (except, of course, for surpassing the speed of light) There's nothing stopping a civilization from making a very long journey. Maybe they have very long lifespans or maybe the aliens that leave their home planet aren't the same ones to arrive at the destination.... but rather their great x10 grandchildren?


What? How are they stuck with the above scenario? They've spread out to different planets in different star systems.

You make some good points, really. There may even be some obstacles that you didn't add. However, none of them are definitive. There could be a workaround to every single one.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by GrayFox]

[edit on 21-5-2008 by GrayFox]

Are you kidding?

Really?

No reason at all?

What about learning about an entirely independently developed civilization?
I think that every Archeologist, Biologist, Statistician, Artist, Physician, Physicist, Zoologist, and Astronomer would disagree with you heavily about there being no reason to study another culture, and all that it has developed independent of our own technological (and artistic) revolution.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that most Geologists would disagree with you and want to visit other worlds that don't even have life!

Seriously. There is so much to learn out in space and on other worlds that you simply CANNOT experience here on Earth.

Ever seen a hurricane move with 3000 mile per hour winds?
Cause a visit to lifeless Neptune could show you what that's like.

Ever wondered just how big volcanoes can get?
Cause a visit to lifeless Io could give you that data.

I could go on and on and on and on...

You really can't think of a single reason?

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar

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Universe is enormously huge. What can be so special in solar system that does not exist in any other spot? We are not exactly in the center of Galaxy. Why spend effort ,time and energy to come here and do what exactly? Anything that is needed to be studied about us (if we interest someone in any way) can be accomplished with much less effort simply by listening to our transmissions.
So why physically arrive on this planet? Space tourism? Do you think any planet in Solar (with those winds, Marses mountain, Earth's civilization, and the rest of "wonders") system could be considered important enough to the rest of the universe to concentrate intrigues and energy of several different alien civilizations as it is portrayed by a lot of authors.....
Imagine if we survive and evolve into star faring civilization - would you think that after visiting several hundreds of different star systems initial enthusiasm will go on and on? And universe is huuuuuge!!! Why any highly evolved civilization will send anything here????

Yes, and full of new discoveries.



Well for one thing, there is life here. While I think it's likely that there is a lot of life out there, life would still (in comparison to the aforementioned size of the Universe) be a 'rarity' and it's possible that in this vast universe that no two planets developed life in exactly the same manner. Studying whether or not that's true is one reason to check out other life forms.

And studying the nearly infinite variety of life just here on Earth, would be plenty of reason to come here. Just think for a moment about one example, the duck billed platypus. Do you really think it's likely that an Alien Species would know about this creature? Do you think that duck billed platypus are common throughout the universe?

That's what I'm saying. There is PLENTY here that is most likely special, unique to Earth. And in our System there are many worlds, and each of them likely has features that are unique to that world.

It's a lot like telling a cryptographer (or calligrapher) that once they've studied one font it's enough to write anything with. Or telling a geologist, hey, you've seen tons of rocks, aren't you bored looking for new ones?

The answer is clearly no, because from each new rock (or writing style, or whatever example you choose) you can learn something.

From each star we visit we can learn about fusion. From each system we visit we can learn about system components (are planets the rule or the exception for certain stars?) and about system creation.

The more we increase our knowledge base, and expand our collected data, the higher the levels of physics we'll be able to understand. It is through such Science that Humans (and likely other species in the universe) continue growing and learning about the vast universe around us.

The Solar System, the Milky Way Galaxy, The Universe (possibly multiverse) all of these are simply larger ways of describing our home.
Why WOULDN'T you want to learn about your own home, who you are, where you came from and where you are going? This are questions any species would likely ask itself, and once capable, would likely start actively pursuing those answers.



I don't think that's true at all whatsoever. In fact, I challenge you with the following questions:
1) What does the soil in Africa smell like?
2) How do the magnetic anamolies of Oregon affect the current pet population (dogs & cats)?
3) How is a Human Genome different than the Genome of a Praying Mantis?
4) What painting in the Natural History Museum in New York City is your favorite?

Basically, if what you're saying were true, nobody would ever travel anywhere. We'd all just say, nah, I don't need to see those white tigers for myself, I can watch it on Animal Planet. Nah, I don't need to experience snow, I've seen blizzards on TV.

There is an instinctive want to know, that is coupled with an inquisitive 'need' to expand our knowledge base. I'm willing to bet that in a similarly evolved species, this trait will also be apparent. The ability to want to know and to learn and to grow. This is how species like us stand out from other great apes. It is highly likely IMHO that other developed species will share this need to know and to understand.

They will research, they will study, and they will never stop learning about the universe around them, and in the process, themselves.

That's my take anyway, and I'll bet that any Human (or Alien) who's job title ends in 'ologist' will likely agree with that perspective.

-WFA

In your opinion *you* may never see aliens come to earth. I've seen them first hand and so have many thousands of other people. That aliens exist and have come to earth is no great secret or suprise anymore.



You assume that the only way to travel is that based on tradional sceince. And that our mode of technological/social development is the only pathway a species will develop or evolve.

Has it ever occured to you that built deep within universe and fabric of reality is a 'universal technology' that allows beings to move around space as they see fit. These powers can only be unlocked when we've reached a certain level of maturity. Ever wondered why all these different species of aliens from all over the universe all seem to use similar circular disc objects?

The UFO's aren't an objective technology as we understand it. They can't quite be manufactured on a processing line like cars can. They are directly linked and extensions to the consciousness of the occupants. They're vehicles of consciousness and therefore the result of totaly different method of evolution.

Not the product of a 3d linear based evolution and the technologies that come from that mindset. It more a conscious ascension based in the present that reveals these technloigies.

Don't limit what's possible in reality to our limited understanding of it.

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar

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I understand what you say, curiosity is a major player in our society, but in huge projects cost efficiency out weights it always. Only issues of political prestige can override the $.
Since any voyage between stars is a huge project for civilizations not much more technologically advanced then us - their need to analyze platypus will be countered by the need to do less important stuff - like colonization of other planets, locating needed minerals and such. Our civilization will be considered either a threat (if we are not that far technologically) or a nuisance. Our biology will interest them only in that manner because we have to be totally different. So any close to our level civilization just starting their explorations or even deep-in-the-expansion state will have to deal with us as a possible competition. Thus no government will be able to shield us or defend us from those. Take Japan for example - they leaders choose to refuse contacts with outer world (which was well known to them by the way) but it did not help, Westerners easily broke this self-induced blockade. Since we hear about ETs for more then century - and still no aliens freely walk our street - this is not the case.
If aliens are vastly more advanced then no need to come here/explore exists at all. No exploration/discovery spirit can exist when technologically everything is possible. The whole infinite universe is there for them. With strange creatures, life and stars and planets. It will take infinite time to study infinitely large universe. Even if this is what they would like to do.
To conclude - if aliens with at least comparable technological level (group1) exist, they would make them self known to ALL. Our government will by no means be able to shield us from them for short duration, not to mention century.
If aliens are much much more advanced (group 2) then to imagine that from the whole universe they will come here to abduct/mutilate platypuses - is very self-centered. Our Solar system is less then a dot in the sea of stars. Why come here? They know so much more then us that to think that dozen big rocks with one hot cloud of gas and several milliards of semi intelligent creatures will some how provoke them to invest anything in exploration.
And since there are only several stars closer then 10 light years to us, and since chance for intelligent life is very slim (lack of radio wave evidence and such) - any alien that can technologically get here must be from group 2. And thus the question - WHY?

reply to post by Stockburn

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Hmm maybe they would. Our probes are pretty lame pieces of equipment which run out of power and stop transmitting back to earth long before they reach the next star system. But what would an advanced probe look like? Our technological civilization is a few decades old..... what would a probe look like from a technological civilization which was a few million years old???