Current model of Nibiru debunked?, page 1
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Topic started on 21-5-2008 @ 01:59 PM by Agent Venom
Now I know there are countless other Nibiru threads, but this one is different, so please hear it out. A friend of mine recently sent me an article from a blog that I found to be very interesting. It describes mass, escape velocity, etc. Now while I am no expert in this field and all the number crunching, I have a basic understanding and this guys numbers don't appear to be too far off. So wasting nomore time, here's what he has to say:

Firstly, though it is said that Nibiru is larger than Jupiter, let us be nice and just say that Nibiru is identical in mass to Jupiter- 1.8986*10^27 kilograms. If it were larger, things would be even worse for the Nibiru proponents.

Second, the mass of the sun is 1.9891*10^30 kilograms.

Now, let us think about how much force this would entail being applied between the sun and Nibiru at the perigee of Nibiru's orbit, which is about 1 AU (150 million km) in distance.

The formula used derive how much force two objects are applying on each other by gravity is F=G({m1*m2}/r^2), where G is the gravitational constant (6.67*10^-11) m^3 * kg^-1 * s^-2).

Below I will omit the units for the sake of clarity. The m^3 and the km cancel to produce kg/s with a difference to the exponents of -3 (in case you read the math below and were looking for the three missing digits).

So, let us plug in the numbers:
F=G({m1m2}/r^2)
F=[6.67*10^-11 * ({1.8986*10^27} * {1.9891*10^30})]/(150,000,
000^2)
F=(2.51896*10^45)/(2.25*10^16)
F=1.1952*10^44 N/s

That's 119520000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Newtons of force every second between Nibiru and the sun at its orbit.

But then you might ask, when objects slingshot around the sun, they move quite quickly, which is how they escape. After all, that is how comets escape, right?

Exactly right. Of course, comets do not have the added burden of being thousands of times the mass of our own planet, but that is exactly how they escape- they reach "escape velocity," or, the speed required to escape a gravity well.

So how fast would an object the size of Nibiru, moving in an elliptical orbit, be required to be traveling in order to escape the sun?

The formula for escape velocity is Vsec=[2*G*M/r]^1/2, or, the square root of [2*G*M/r] where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass being dealt with, and r is the radius of a circle whose diameter is the distance between the objects.

Our G is 6.67*10^-11.
Our M is extracted from the N-M/kg from the first formula, so, 1.1952*10^44.
Our r is 1/2AU, so about 7.5*10^10 km.

Vsec=[2(6.67*10^-11)*(1.1952*10^44)/(7.5*10^10)]^(1/2)
Vsec=({1.5994*10^34}/{7.5*10^10})^(1/2)
Vsec=(2.2126*10^23)^(1/2)
Vsec=1.487*10^7 km/sec.

This means that Nibiru's escape velocity must be 14,870,000 kilometers per second.

To put this utter absurdity into perspective, this is NEARLY SEVEN TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT! If Nibiru were ever travelling even a tiny fraction of that speed, tidal forces would tear it apart. Its wake would vaporize the inner planets. This is ridiculous. Abandon this foolish belief- it is debunked NOW.


So, anyone who has the knowledge in this field I would appreciate confirmation, or perhaps your own calculation of the numbers to see how accurate/far off this person is. If it's more accurate than not then it seems like some of the best evidence for the Nibiru myth.


reply posted on 21-5-2008 @ 02:31 PM by Agent Venom
Ok as there is no room to edit my first post and type this I have to make this reply. I found the blog and there are slight errors.
Link:
teapotatheism.blogspot.com...

Now in this part of the blog he states:
Thank you, Ben. You have showed me why Nibiru would need to be traveling a great deal FASTER than I had originally calculated.

He is absolutely right: I misstated the distance of 1 AU (I had billions in my head where I should have had millions). Unfortunately for Ben, because the distance part of the equation is on the bottom side of the division bit of the Vsec formula, this means that I am DECREASING the radius of the circle, so I am INCREASING the necessary escape velocity by three more digits!!

Sorry Ben, that change doesn't mean reducing the final product by a factor of a thousand, it means increasing the pre-root Vsec by three digits. Thanks for editing my work for me, now I know that things are even worse for you than I thought.

Thanks, Ben, you have been VERY effective in showing why the Nibiru superstition is EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE!


Now avoiding the grudge match two people seem to be having here, others have made some very intresting posts.
Link: teapotatheism.blogspot.com...


reply posted on 21-5-2008 @ 04:23 PM by RusytyShackleford
What are you doing!? Science has no place in this debate (joking, of course). The funny thing with this "theory" (I hesitate to even call it a theory because that seemingly gives it an oz. of credibility) is that people start with the claim and then search for evidence supporting the claim. This is not science and this is not how science is done.

The claims made by the Planet X'ers are testable and have been tested and guess what? By all standards it has failed the test. There is no observational evidence, there is no mathematical evidence, there is nothing.

I have been researching this "theory" for the past few weeks because this is the first I have heard of it. One of the major claims is that in 1983 there was a newspaper article claiming that a Jupiter sized object was found by the IRAS. Apparently however, not one of the Planet X'ers had the common sense to ask the two scientists who made the discovery what it was. Well, the good folks over at Bad astronomy did and here's what they found;



IRAS was designed to look in the far-infrared, well past what our eyes see. At the time, no one was really sure what it would find. To everyone's surprise, several bright point sources were found that did not correspond to anything seen on optical images taken of the same areas. In the press conference, the two scientists said that these objects could be almost anything, from a tenth planet in our solar system to distant galaxies.




Guess which it turned out to be? Sure enough, much deeper images were taken, and some of the objects were found to be dense gas clouds in our own Galaxy, while others turned out to be very distant galaxies. In fact, these observations heralded the discovery of a new type of object: Ultra-luminous Infrared Galaxies (ULIRGs). These are galaxies in which there is a burst of stars being born. The cocoons of dust in which the stars are enshrouded generates copious infrared, which is what was detected by IRAS. They published these results in the prestigious Astrophysical Journal, and you can even read it yourself.



He did a nice write up explaining all of the myths associated and also did the correct math (on a separate page, just follow the link of the link below).

click here

There is not one shred of evidence supporting Planet X. Nothing. I don't what else can be done?



reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 06:56 AM by ignorant_ape
reply to post by cruzion



actually a body which generates its own gravitational effect will have a HIGHER escape velocity , not lower


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 08:02 AM by Malech
reply to post by Agent Venom



If Nibiru was in a stable orbit, as it's supposed to be, its mass has no effect on the escape velocity. This is because its kinetic and gravitational potential energies are equal (which is how the escape velocity equation is derived), and as both rely linearly upon the mass of the object these terms are cancelled out.

However, your diagram gave me an idea as to how to check the likelihood of the orbit existing. Kepler's 3rd law says that the square of the period of the orbit is proportional to cube of its semi-major axis (half the longest 'diameter' of the ellipse). This can be used as P^2 = a^3 if P taken in years and a in astronomical units. Taking P = 3600 yrs, this give a as 235 AU.

This can then be used to show the eccentricity of the orbit, using the distance from the sun at its closest approach (perihelion).

d = a(1-e)

Taking the perihelion distance d as 1 AU (I think that's what was used in the original calculation), this rearranges to give an eccentricity of 0.998.

Basically the orbit would have to be almost a straight line, which is very unlikely.


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 08:58 AM by behindthescenes
Great thread, Venom.

NASA did a similar debunking case recently. I've posted it
on this thread.

I also found this directly from a senior NASA scientist who calls Nibiru a decade-old hoax derived from a cult....


I hope this is my last comment on the Nibiru hoax, but questions like the above six keep coming in. Most of the entries on the Internet about Nibiru are false. Wikipedia has it correct when they write that "Nibiru is a name in Sumerian, Babylonian astrology associated with the god Marduk, generally accepted as referring to the planet Jupiter." The rest is a hoax, including all the "stuff" questioner #! found on the internet. Questioners #2 and #3 mention the astronomical observatory at the South Pole, but I assure you these astronomers are not looking at Nibiru. The Antarctic is a great place for astronomical infrared and short-wave-radio observations, and it also has the advantage that objects can be observed continuously without the interference of the day-night cycle. If the questioner really thinks that Nibiru is visible in the daytime in the southern hemisphere, they are very confused; this sort of statement is obviously false. Questioners #3 and #4 seem to think that the government would hide information about Nibiru and the catastrophe supposedly due in a few years, but I can't imagine why. My experience is, in fact, that sometimes parts of the government do just the opposite, as in the frequent references to various terrorist threats or warnings about driving accidents on long holiday weekends, which are no more dangerous than any other time. In any case, the job of NASA scientists is to discover and tell the truth! Questioner (5) asks if Nibiru is the same as Eris, and the answer is an emphatic no. This Nibiru hoax has been around for a decade, including predictions that Nibiru would pass close to Earth and cause a catastrophe about 5 years ago. (Guess what: it didn't happen!). Eris, in contrast, is one of several dwarf planets recently found by astronomers in the outer part of out solar system, all of them on normal orbits that will never bring them close to Earth. There is a good write-up on Eris in Wikipedia. Finally, Questioner (6) asks me to identify two pictures. I could perhaps do so if I knew the type of telescope and camera used and the scale of photos. Without that information, I can only guess that (if these photos are real) these might be images of a gas cloud (nebula) ejected by a star in its old age. They are obviously very distant, since we see stars in the foreground superposed on the nebula. Also, since the stars are the same, this object (if it is real) has not moved between the dates of the two photos. It is just crazy that anyone would claim that these are photos of a planet in our own solar system. Let me say once again that Nibiru is a hoax promoted by a cult; it does not exist, and it certainly poses no threat to us. It saddens me that people would be taken in by such nonsense. David Morrison
NAI Senior Scientist
February 7, 2008


[edit on 5/22/2008 by behindthescenes]
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