I've been out of the loop for a while, so I missed that whole episode.

What happened between Ritzman and Lear?

Anyway I always thought his posts were a bit sensationalistic, and that he thought that they should be believed simply because he is John Lear.

Grail & JMP...I'm not JL's talent agent or internet representative. I talked to him sometimes, but I'm not going to be the one to defend him on the boards.

He has the right to disclose anything he knows about ATS and has accomplised to open up my eyes by announcing it LIVE on a national Radio show. I have always believed that the Government agencies have been reading my posts. Look back at my threads about the MIB.

However, who are we kidding guys. some of you come here to fight the system and demand truths. Basically come here to oppose users like JL and prove him wrong. Many, many times i've witnessed people trying to debunk UFo's, GOD, Chupacabras, etc. Some users are just trolls out to get other users. JL was a target by those users. I don't know who they are and why. But, i've felt that since i've joined ATS there is a group of people who follow you jus to oppose your ideologies..whatever it may be. It happened to me and i'm not JL. So just imagine.

I mean come on. Robbie Williams is getting more internet time for talking about some sighting on a roof than JL. that seems wrong to me. He's the uttermost authority on issues and RW is not, yet he's not banned. I just think that if there are CIA operatives here i'd like ATS to come out and disclose all of their usernames.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if this was a front for the CIA or not. I enjoy the heck out of the topics here and I especially enjoy the links for vids, books, and other web sites with supporting information.

ATS is never boring. You can't beat that.

I wouldn't doubt it. The CIA looked into mind control, it looked into psychics. They leave no stone unturned, and I wouldn't be surprised if ATS was set up by them to collect more information on the supernatural. If they didn't set it up I think they at least monitor the site. they have the resources to look into these things, and if some of the things mentioned here are true then the benefit from exploring these things far outweigh the risks/costs from exploring them.

It's also a great place to get potential enemies to make themselves known and have easy access to their personal information while the enemy doesn't suspect a thing. I remember reading a few threads about people here being visited by people they don't know who would mention this site to them or things about them that would only be linked to this site.

As some others have mentioned, i do not believe most of us can assume or state that we know ATS is or is not a front for the CIA.

Whether you state this is or is not a front, you are being equally ignorant but on different ends of the scale. To know is to have undeniable proof - and i doubt few of us have that.

I do not assume to know the truth - it may or may not be true.

Originally posted by the titor experience
As some others have mentioned, i do not believe most of us can assume or state that we know ATS is or is not a front for the CIA.

Whether you state this is or is not a front, you are being equally ignorant but on different ends of the scale. To know is to have undeniable proof - and i doubt few of us have that.

I do not assume to know the truth - it may or may not be true.

It is, of course, impossible to deny the sense behind this summary by Titor.

However, I think that some of us/you are losing sight of the purpose of this debate, which is to determine whether it is reasonable for Lear to allege that this site is a CIA front. It's my view that it is not. I base that view on the fact that he offers no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it is; he signed up for the site and contributed willingly to its discourse in if not an administrative then at least a senior position; he voiced this allegation in the wake of an absurdly dramatic feud in which he was the most absurdly dramatic party; the idea that the CIA would use this site is laughable; and if they actually were, all it would prove is how effortlessly your administration finds ways to waste your hard-earned money.

But, as you correctly observe, I can't prove it...

LW

(I don't mean to interrupt, but I've been curious as to what happened to Lear on this site. I know he had his own little section of posts. Someone said earlier that he had a fallout with Jeff Ritzman? Can anyone fill me in/point me in the right direction to where this all happened? And why is Lear no longer around? I always had my doubts about his moon theories but some of what he said made me think, "Really?!". If anyone could update me, I'd greatly appreciate it!! Thanks!!)

What a magnificent cast of crazies for a BIG BROTHER house. This includes john lear as the king of the crazies.

For what's it's worth, I can tell you that I am no way involved in the CIA or the FBI or any other alphabet agency no more than any other member here. While I respect Mr. Lear, I personally believe that he takes a small peice of truth and then multiplies it by a hundred. The man is old enough to understand that there is a certain level of maturity one must possess to post here, he just chooses to ignore it. I have never met a grown adult act more like a baby than John Lear. And for everyone here who says that we shouldn't talk about John because he can't defend himself....Please spare me. The man can go on a show like that and talk all day long, he also has the ability to post here if he wishes, and he knows that. Just another example of why I didn't trust this guy from my first day here. He lives for drama and attention and when someone posesses those kind of traits, my BS meter instantly forces me to scrutinize what is coming from said source. Sorry if this comes across as curt but I am truly sick of this man trying to tear down what we work so hard to protect. The difference between Lear and Robbie Williams is this. One already has fame and fortune and just wants the truth, the other distorts the former to gain the latter. You do the math.

My opinion is that The CIA does frequent this sight. Where else can you go to view more conspiracy theories and information from around the world? What better place to come to then ATS to obtain the heart beat of the people of this Earth.

If you were CIA and were being paid to monitor what is going on with information across the world what better place to start then ATS. Breaking news many times is presented on ATS before the mainstream news gets hold of a particular story or happening.

Would ATS report some whacked person or group to authorities if they knowingly thought that they were going to do some harm to someone or some country including The United States Of America that were posting on ATS? I believe they would and would have an obligation. Again how far does ATS go in policing their website even if it is a border line situation when it comes to a terrorist threat, subversive group or person wanting to do harm to someone or group of people?

Watch what you say because we all would have to be naive to think that we were not being monitored at any given time by certain agencies and not just the CIA or other countries intelligent agencies around the world.

In retrospect I truly believe that there are many times on ATS or on other websites that a person will not say what they really think or believe because of the repercussions. In other words how far does ATS, the population as a whole or government agencies allow freedom of speech to go especially after 911 and the Patriot Act. Rik Riley

For what it's worth I've been hewre since ats was a baby back in the day I not involved in any CIA projects or getting paid wish I was thought I could do with the cash I think lear has just made a slip up and people are takeing it out of context. Hey who knows would be cool if ATS was a CIA front, by the way if any jobs are going can I have one please thnk you.

Originally posted by SystemiK
Since one cannot categorically prove ATS not to be a front, it may be wise to assume that it could be a front and proceed accordingly.

That seems like rather tortured logic. One cannot categorically prove ATS is a CIA front either, so why assume that it could be?

Personally, I find it rather arrogant to believe they could care two-drops about what we have to say here.

Lear's allegations do not cast doubt on ATS, but rather cast doubt on his own level of maturity and intelligence. It speaks to a high degree of arrogance and immaturity on Lear's part, and perhaps a bit of psychosis; in his view, people cannot have a legitimate or reasonable disagreement with him without being a government agent out to get him. It shows he is not able to back up his claims or properly defend them without falling back on an attack meant to derail and change the subject.

For some reason this comes up quite often on these boards. I don't subscribe to JL's theories nor do I subscribe to the ridiculous idea that ATS is a CIA front. It just does not make any sense to me whatsoever.

The admin of this site have repeatedly denounced their involvement with the CIA or any other covert operation within the US government. JL has not brought forth any hard evidence to back up his claim. Yet time and time again JL spouts this theory of his wherever he can.

Of course there will be those that think that ATS is a covert op (for whatever reason I don't know) But the issue comes up now and again.

What we have to remember is that just because someone says something doesn't make it so. Without any proof other than his slanderous claims JL is just apparently trying to cause trouble.

What is also funny to me is that people don't seem to remember that everything they post on this site is viewable by any government agency, by anyone anywhere in fact. Your posts (including this one) is readily available for view by any national security agency. It is quite likely that any board such as this one is routinely monitored by the government.

The problem I have personaly with JL (which goes along with the same problem I have with project camelot) Is that it would appear that he (they) are a group of people with overactive imaginations.

I would remind everyone to please don't take things on face value and please do your own research into these subjects. Make up your own mind and don't be led about by the nose by anyone.

I could make the claim quite easily that member Givenmay is a CIA agent here to gather Intel on members. (sorry to point out Givenmay, just kinda funny) Does it make this true? Of course not. I seriously doubt that this member is a CIA plant. However if JL made the claim would that make it true?

I have no doubt in my mind that there are more than likely people on here that post that are indeed assigned to post on this site by some government agency. I have no doubt that there are indeed people here whos sole perpose here is to deflect the flow of information and to spread government propaganda. Do I know who these people are? No. Are they the admins and moderators of this site? I doubt it.

I'll make it easy for everyone.

Simon Gray a question for you. Are you aware of the Central Intelligence Agency monitoring our posts at any time? if so, please post it on the Terms of Service page and let everyone know..because that's the law.


It would be respectful to us as "users" to let us know that we are being tracked, traced, taped and transcripted. Our every motions and posts and personal information given to the Government agencies. I feel that the CIA is scum for violating our freedoms, by spying on us on every front of our lives.

Thanks.




[edit on 21-5-2008 by jedimiller]

Originally posted by jedimiller
Grail & JMP...I'm not JL's talent agent or internet representative...but I'm not going to be the one to defend him on the boards.

And yet you are. It seems you are taking everything he says at face value, without applying any critical thinking to it.

Originally posted by jedimiller
He has the right to disclose anything he knows about ATS and has accomplised to open up my eyes by announcing it LIVE on a national Radio show...

However, who are we kidding guys. some of you come here to fight the system and demand truths. Basically come here to oppose users like JL and prove him wrong. Many, many times i've witnessed people trying to debunk UFo's, GOD, Chupacabras, etc. Some users are just trolls out to get other users. JL was a target by those users...

If you are not defending King Lear, then why do you allow him rights you do not wish to grant other members? Why does Lear have the right and responsibility to call ATS a CIA front, yet we regular members don't have the right to state our beliefs and present evidence if we believe Lear or anyone else to be wrong. Why are we regulated to the status of trolls or worse?

And why do you assume that people who are skeptics or those who want to debunk everything have nefarious motives? Isn't it just as likely that people who defend every little bit of nonsense, who take the word of people like King Lear at face-value, who attack anyone who says anything to the contrary, are disinformation agents?

Besides...what does it matter if some people are here to just debunk? If some members have the right to come in here, post all the nonsense they want in support of UFOs, God and chupacabras, then other members have the right to debunk anything they want.

Originally posted by jedimiller
I mean come on. Robbie Williams is getting more internet time for talking about some sighting on a roof than JL. that seems wrong to me. He's the uttermost authority on issues and RW is not, yet he's not banned...

It might have something to do with Robbie Williams have a more agreeable personality, and not accusing anyone and everyone disagreeing with him of being a CIA agent.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by SaviorComplex]