Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

a reply to: KSigMason

Thanks. That was helpfull, cleared some things for me. Might come back when I've digested it.

a reply to: n3m3sis

I am convinced. I think you have found the definitive proof we have all been avoiding. My God, to think this was true.......

I am so ashamed.

a reply to: network dude

I thought you deleted that video?

This is gonna be very embarrassing.......

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I sure hope nobody saw it before it was pulled. The ramifications of your dress alone could sink us all.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Ok i'm sure it's been covered here so maybe you can just point me to where in the 50 pages it is, if so -
and you and Network Dude both know my attitude and opinions regarding Masonry have changed since some of my comments of the past which i am less than proud of. I just have to ask this since the thread is still alive & kickin'...

My earliest recollections of anything having to do with Masonry are the news stories about P2.
Now, to the non-member, we just think that's your example of a conspiracy right there. I read thru the Wiki on it a bit, and honestly i can't make sense of, let alone care at all, exactly when or why they were "excommunicated" from "official" Masonry, but i do know that they continued to practice the rituals, use the symbols, and call themselves Masons in their worldly, politically dastardly affairs.

I don't recall if it was you or another who told me that Jay-Z was perfectly ok making Masonic emblem clothing, and anyone could wear the symbol as it's not copyrighted by Masons...maybe it should be?

Seems anyone who is a "low-ranking" Mason could just start a lodge (like the newb who founded P2) and do whatever they want under your banner of protection - and let's not pretend the bumper stickers are just decoration, ok? We all know better than that. I have friends who are cops, friends who are Masons, and friends who are both. Do you think P2 could have done what they did if not claiming Masonry? If they could, why did they then?! It's not a non-issue, seems like a BIG issue to me! I know people in for more than 2 years you might want to worry about in that department, I have a hard time believing there aren't a lot more in this world, day, & age.

The point is, the name and symbol mean something important - why would you not protect yourselves from those who would misuse it like P2, and give you all such a bad name for such a long time?

Just hoping to clear this up for those of us who don't know the answers to these questions - again, sorry if you've covered it but this thread is LONG. Just tell me which page and i'll read it - I'm not a fan of repeating myself - especially in typing - and wouldn't ask you to either.

To be more specific - how is this NOT a Masonic conspiracy? If the answer is "they were no longer an official lodge," my (and others i'm sure) reply would be, how do we know that? The Grand Lodge says so? Sorry but that's as believable to us as a government paid coroner saying the cop didn't kill the victim. Just trying to show you what it looks like to "us" and get your side of it, I'm sure I'm wrong about a lot of it, but hey, that's why i'm asking.

Love and light to you this season,
-D

a reply to: KAOStheory

Gelli was Master of a Masonic Lodge by the name of Propaganda Due or P. 2. under the Grand Orient of Italy - a Grand Lodge in recognition with the UGLE and most other 'mainstream' Masonic grand lodges.

HOWEVER, here is where the story takes an interesting turn. The Lodge "Propaganda Due" was consecrated in 1895 but unfortunately, it suffered from the infiltration of both political and business elements (as some would argue is common throughout Italian organizations) to such a degree that

Masonic authorities felt obliged in 1976 to close the lodge (Decree No. 444 L.S. of June, 1976). Lucio Gelli who was its master was expelled from Freemasonry.

link

The link will give you a bit more about this. They had already lost their charter, and the master expelled, but they continued to operate as if none of that happened. We as masons have no control over something like that. We have a system of jurisprudence, but not a system of enforcement. (think masonic ninja warriors)

It's a black eye on masonry to be sure. But we moved past it.

originally posted by: KAOStheory

I read thru the Wiki on it a bit, and honestly i can't make sense of, let alone care at all, exactly when or why they were "excommunicated" from "official" Masonry, but i do know that they continued to practice the rituals, use the symbols, and call themselves Masons in their worldly, politically dastardly affairs.

When the Grand Orient of Italy investigated P2 during the mid-1970's they determined that their behavior was un-Masonic and revoked their charter in 1976. As the Grand Orient was recognized by most other Grand Lodges this meant P2 was not recognized by the majority of Masons in the world and were considered clandestine.

They continued to operate until 1981 but there is not enforcing body that prevents them from doing so, non-recognition simply mean that we (Regular Masons) do not visit them or vice versa. We have no communication or affiliation of any kind. We do not own the trademark on Masons or Freemasonry so anyone can call themselves one or open their own lodge.

I don't recall if it was you or another who told me that Jay-Z was perfectly ok making Masonic emblem clothing, and anyone could wear the symbol as it's not copyrighted by Masons...maybe it should be?

It personally does not bother me, most of them time they are not even the right symbols but a bastardization of several. The Square and Compasses have been in the public domain for centuries so even if we wanted to we could not patent them or trademark them.

Seems anyone who is a "low-ranking" Mason could just start a lodge (like the newb who founded P2) and do whatever they want under your banner of protection...

P2 was actually founded with a proper charter in the 1800's. They were expelled nearly 100 years later. As for the protection aspect, they had their charter revoked when it was determined that un-Masonic conduct was taking place.

- and let's not pretend the bumper stickers are just decoration, ok? We all know better than that. I have friends who are cops, friends who are Masons, and friends who are both.

Same here, everyone on my father's side is in law enforcement. Using my Masonic affiliation to get out of a ticket could end up with me being expelled if the person reports me and is not worth doing (plus, I really do not speed anyway).

Do you think P2 could have done what they did if not claiming Masonry? If they could, why did they then?! It's not a non-issue, seems like a BIG issue to me! I know people in for more than 2 years you might want to worry about in that department, I have a hard time believing there aren't a lot more in this world, day, & age.

P2's big issue was they were using their lodge for politics which is strictly forbidden in my Grand Lodge. So instead of meeting of site they had everyone join their lodge and used it as a political action group. When this was uncovered they were expelled, the authorities eventually arrested members of that lodge due to their illegal activity.

The point is, the name and symbol mean something important - why would you not protect yourselves from those who would misuse it like P2, and give you all such a bad name for such a long time?

There is no way to prevent someone from forming their own lodge or claiming they are a Mason.

Just hoping to clear this up for those of us who don't know the answers to these questions - again, sorry if you've covered it but this thread is LONG. Just tell me which page and i'll read it - I'm not a fan of repeating myself - especially in typing - and wouldn't ask you to either.

Personally I do not remember what page it is on but I am pretty sure it is in here as well. You can use the 'posts in thread' feature under each of our avatars to read only what we typed which cuts down on the number of posts to wade through.

To be more specific - how is this NOT a Masonic conspiracy? If the answer is "they were no longer an official lodge," my (and others i'm sure) reply would be, how do we know that? The Grand Lodge says so? Sorry but that's as believable to us as a government paid coroner saying the cop didn't kill the victim. Just trying to show you what it looks like to "us" and get your side of it, I'm sure I'm wrong about a lot of it, but hey, that's why i'm asking.

If I recall correctly the Grand Orient published the proclamation and there was also an investigation begun by the Italian authorities. The investigation lead to the eventual collapse of the Italian government so, to me, the analogy is not an accurate one.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Thank you -
wow, really - for taking the time to address the many things I spat out individually.
Seriously, you did shine light on the matter for me, and likely, other non-Masons.
I suppose anyone can, and actually it's happened to me, claim to be an employee of my company, or even sillier, a member of my band, when in fact, they are not.
Again, also suppose Masonry can be held no more accountable for the rogue acts of a few than I can -
unless proven otherwise...
the conspiracy junkies here will say it's just because you're so good at hiding it, and I still can't 100% bank on that not being a possibility...but hey, this is a conspiracy site, so pics or it didn't happen, right?

So either Masons are the absolute best at not being affiliated with the conspiracies they are accused of being affiliated with, or they are innocent - either way, the OP remains unchallenged.

I'm going to go ahead and respectfully take the opportunity to point out an absurd statement frequently repeated, pertaining to the Denver International Airports' Masonic Stone -
"The stone is accredited to the New World Airport Commission, which doesn't even exist!"

Really. REALLY? Because you can't get a Google result, this organization simply doesn't exist? Oookay, junior.
I'm sure the people who say this, from their parent's basements, never bothered to hit a library or shoot an email to someone who might know - but hey, easier to just assume that anything without a Wiki page is simply not real.

Anyhoo, all that silliness aside, curious as to you and Network Dudes' take and/or any "secrets" you can share about the DIA - it's obviously a Masonic structure, the murals are weird to be kind, and my ex can vouch for the unsettling low-frequency vibrations emitting from the floor from her own 3-hour layover there. I work in Vibro-Acoustic and Sound Therapies, so she knows what's no bueno.

Thanks again

a reply to: KAOStheory

I could be way off on this, as I honestly haven't looked into it, but we, as masons, dedicate buildings all the time. Like the White house, we lay a cornerstone and have a ceremony. I know of a few buildings in my town that have masonic cornerstones in them, and that doesn't make the building masonic, just that one stone. So it's possible that a local lodge did a dedication ceremony there.

ETA: It looks like that is exactly what it is.


They even list the three companies that make up the organization you mentioned.
The cornerstone will have some memorabilia stored in it like a time capsule.

originally posted by: KAOStheory

Thank you -
wow, really - for taking the time to address the many things I spat out individually.
Seriously, you did shine light on the matter for me, and likely, other non-Masons.

No worries. Glad I can help.

I suppose anyone can, and actually it's happened to me, claim to be an employee of my company, or even sillier, a member of my band, when in fact, they are not.
Again, also suppose Masonry can be held no more accountable for the rogue acts of a few than I can -
unless proven otherwise...

Yeah, I suppose that is a similar situation but you may actually have more legal recourse than us if you trademarked your band's name and the other person tried to use it (like claiming your are in The Beatles).

the conspiracy junkies here will say it's just because you're so good at hiding it, and I still can't 100% bank on that not being a possibility...but hey, this is a conspiracy site, so pics or it didn't happen, right?

They could indeed say that but if you read my posts over the past eight years I am either really consistent, and telling the truth, or a very good liar to always have my facts straight.

So either Masons are the absolute best at not being affiliated with the conspiracies they are accused of being affiliated with, or they are innocent - either way, the OP remains unchallenged.

There are the occasional outliers like P2 and even in my state we had one lodge, about four years ago, have two of its elected officers expelled for embezzlement. There are bad people in all groups but I think we do a fairly good job of policing ourselves.

I'm going to go ahead and respectfully take the opportunity to point out an absurd statement frequently repeated, pertaining to the Denver International Airports' Masonic Stone -
"The stone is accredited to the New World Airport Commission, which doesn't even exist!"

I think Network addressed that sufficiently above.

Anyhoo, all that silliness aside, curious as to you and Network Dudes' take and/or any "secrets" you can share about the DIA - it's obviously a Masonic structure, the murals are weird to be kind, and my ex can vouch for the unsettling low-frequency vibrations emitting from the floor from her own 3-hour layover there. I work in Vibro-Acoustic and Sound Therapies, so she knows what's no bueno.

I have not been there in some time (they still had the murals when I was there last) but other than that time capsule stone pictured I did not see anything that screamed 'Masons'. Granted, I thought the murals were a bit odd for my tastes but from what I have read the artist is not a Mason and his rationale for painting them was clearly explained at one point.

If you really want to see a place that is Masonic in its total design then check out Sandusky, Ohio which is laid out with completely overt Masonic symbolism. I like to think if we are going to do something like incorporate Masonic symbols into something we are going to do it right, you know, being masons and all.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Thank you again.
And yes I have read your posts, and Network Dudes, and to be honest, it's been due to your posts and our exchanges that my opinions on Masonry have changed. The only people I know personally who are former Masons have nothing good to say about it. They seem to be uncomfortable with the fact that there are so many influential faces of the churches, state, and community in one room, as some of these groups represented would be considered "opposing" - like Bush & Kerry being in the same club - however, I think the opportunity to connect with a diverse group who have the power to change something would be a wonderful opportunity, if one had something to bring to the table. Just my thoughts on that...

Thanks again for the DIA info. I've heard of that town in Ohio and have seen pics...DC comes to mind as well, of course.

I believe it was Alice Bailey but not sure, who had a Masonic capstone ceremony at the Olcott Center, near here in Wheaton, IL. Just remembered that from your response. It's the Theosophical Society National H.Q., and actually the whole building is amazing...but not particularly "Masonic" either. I'm sure we have members who are Masons, but the TS has members who are lots of things. I'd love to see what's in that time capsule.

a reply to: KAOStheory

Just let any of us know if you have any more questions.