Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Well, I guess it depends on where you can get info, but you said name one man who has hurt society. Aliester Crowley There's a site that says he was a mason.

Crowley was what is known as a clandestine Mason. But I'm curious: how did he "hurt society". I realize that his books pissed a lot of conservatives off, but personally, I think that's a good thing!

Also, no, Hitler was not a Mason. He was, in fcat, a conspiracy theorist and anti-Mason. He used the Protocols as propaganda against Freemasonry.

Cheney, Rumsfield, etc... I bet there is a llist of good masons and probably a smaller list of bad masons.

Cheney and Rumsfeld are not Masons.





[edit on 22-5-2008 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Okay, good enough. Yes, I was wrong. Just to double check, as you go through each degree, is there a type of ceremony or initiation? Are they all different or the same basic things go on?

Yes, there is a separate ceremony of initiation for each degree. They all have similar structures, but different contents.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thank you for your replies. The mysteries and this discussion seems to be going in a circle. My reply would still be, why the secrecy? Why is it needed exactly? Whether 2400 years ago they had a similar belief or reason for secrecy matters not, to me at least. You can relate the freemasonry to them, but that was also a different time and it's hard to compare that time to ours. For the most part, most of the world nowadays does not believe in lots of gods and goddesses , though there is still the minority that does. Our science is different and our technology is different. You did answer a question, whether it's just your opinion or the philosophy of the masons, you did say it was more important to fix yourself in order to better help the world. I think this is true to a point, but again, is it fixing yourself and is it making things better for yourself for selfish reasons? I guess it doesn't matter actually. To me, I see no reason for secrecy in this day and age, in fact, secrecy is also what is hindering this world. Secrecy causes man to go against man, secrecy also has impeded medical and scientific research. My belief is that the reason for secrecy must be to hide something. If you are hiding spiritual advances, it is a little like hiding the cure to AIDS. You could help the world spiritually, but you want them to earn it I suppose. If you had the cure for AIDS, you could give it to millions, or say, hey, they need to practice safe sex or they are never going to learn. My thoughts are "hey, if by me just saying or writing down beneficial things will help people, cool". Not everyone will read or listen, but hey, at least it's out there. I'm hearing your arguments and others as well and I'm thinking in time we may just agree to disagree over our philosophies of giving out information and help and probably other things as well. I have no problem with that. I do not walk in your shoes, nor you me, so what feels right to me may not feel right to you. I do not know who is in the right or in the wrong, I can only go by my instincts or gut feelings on all of this. I have read enough pro and anti mormon stuff that I feel it's pretty even. You have mason haters and then you have mason lovers that will defend masonry no matter how illogical the argument may be. I've enjoyed these discussions and am glad I participated so far. Nothing escalated or got out of hand or disrespectful. There were a couple of smart @ss comments, but hey, it's all good. Nothing got out of hand and that's what I like about debates. Good, open, honest and intelligent without getting childish or ignorant. Thanks to you and all of you who have replied so far!

JPT

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Well, I guess it depends on where you can get info, but you said name one man who has hurt society. Aliester Crowley There's a site that says he was a mason.

Crowley was what is known as a clandestine Mason. But I'm curious: how did he "hurt society". I realize that his books pissed a lot of conservatives off, but personally, I think that's a good thing!

Also, no, Hitler was not a Mason. He was, in fcat, a conspiracy theorist and anti-Mason. He used the Protocols as propaganda against Freemasonry.

Cheney, Rumsfield, etc... I bet there is a llist of good masons and probably a smaller list of bad masons.

Cheney and Rumsfeld are not Masons.





[edit on 22-5-2008 by Masonic Light]

Crowley did nothing to help this world really. The only thing he did was get people involved in more sinister things, spiritually that is and to focus again on themselves and their own power for their own benefit. I don't know a ton about him, but I can read more if you want to know more reasons because I can only imagine what else I would find out since the little I know about him has nothing good for society.

As far as Hitler, I don't think I ever said he was a mason or even mentioned his name for that matter. Also, I never said Cheney or Rumsfeld were masons. I was just saying that Bush is not the end all blame for what is going on these days, in fact I don't even think he is intelligent enough to put together the problems that the US has right now.

JPT

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Okay, good enough. Yes, I was wrong. Just to double check, as you go through each degree, is there a type of ceremony or initiation? Are they all different or the same basic things go on?

Yes, there is a separate ceremony of initiation for each degree. They all have similar structures, but different contents.

Well, similar structures with different content is kind of huge. Islam and Christianity share some similar structure, but the content difference is HUGE! So, are you aware of all the content that goes on in all the different ceremonies, and if not, is it available to you if you want to know it right now?

JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough




Well, similar structures with different content is kind of huge. Islam and Christianity share some similar structure, but the content difference is HUGE! So, are you aware of all the content that goes on in all the different ceremonies, and if not, is it available to you if you want to know it right now?

JPT

The structure is similar but unlike the religions you mention the content is related and the 3rd is difficult without the first two... while Islam and Christianity can exist without the other
the ceremonies build on each other as far as content and meaning- it is a progression of a story and in the end a Mason is raised to the Sublime degree of Master Mason.
I have the content to the ceremonies available to me when i get home
and what i needed to commit to memory

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
The mysteries and this discussion seems to be going in a circle. My reply would still be, why the secrecy?

Because the doctrines expressed in the Mysteries often were in opposition to those held by the status quo. This is why I referenced the execution of Socrates. Simply put, there have been times when one would be in physical danger for declaring the truth openly. Therefore, a different method had to be devised to protect both the truth and it's hierophants.

You did answer a question, whether it's just your opinion or the philosophy of the masons, you did say it was more important to fix yourself in order to better help the world. I think this is true to a point, but again, is it fixing yourself and is it making things better for yourself for selfish reasons?

This brings us to the really fundamental question: why do we exist in the first place? If the correct is, as I maintain, "to learn", then to acquire knowledge we must be virtuous and seek the good, which is the source of knowledge. Again I reference Plato concerning the connection between knowledge, virtue, and the good.

My belief is that the reason for secrecy must be to hide something.

And you are obviously correct. But we need to go further and ask "Is there a reason to hide something?"

If you are hiding spiritual advances, it is a little like hiding the cure to AIDS. You could help the world spiritually, but you want them to earn it I suppose.

Truth is given by God alone. It is my belief that initiation can aid one on his search, but cannot guarantee a man any special sort of enlightenment. It is Nature that hides her secrets, and it is She who makes us earn their knowledge. In the Mysteries, this fact was represented by the Veiled Isis, who symbolized Mother Nature concealing her mysteries.

Initiation does not teach dogmatically. It rather teaches in symbols. Even secrecy itself is not much more than a symbol, pointing out certain truths to those who dedicate themselves to finding them.

Originally posted by fiorano


The structure is similar but unlike the religions you mention the content is related and the 3rd is difficult without the first two... while Islam and Christianity can exist without the other
the ceremonies build on each other as far as content and meaning- it is a progression of a story and in the end a Mason is raised to the Sublime degree of Master Mason.
I have the content to the ceremonies available to me when i get home
and what i needed to commit to memory

cool, thanks. This is all good information to know. That makes sense about each one building on the other and I figured it was probably that way, as it usually is with anything that progresses over time, like building to each new degree. So, is that weird that a newer mason would have the ceremony content of say a 32 degree mason's ceremony? Thanks for the reply!


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Crowley did nothing to help this world really. The only thing he did was get people involved in more sinister things, spiritually that is and to focus again on themselves and their own power for their own benefit. I don't know a ton about him, but I can read more if you want to know more reasons because I can only imagine what else I would find out since the little I know about him has nothing good for society.

Crowley tried his best to be controversial. He was also quite a prankster, and did a lot of writing with tongue-in-cheek.

Regardless, I strongly disagree that he persuaded people to seek after "their own power and benefit". Once you get past his hyperbole and bizarre sense of humor, he actually has a pretty profound philosophy.

Originally posted by justpassingthrough



Well, similar structures with different content is kind of huge. Islam and Christianity share some similar structure, but the content difference is HUGE! So, are you aware of all the content that goes on in all the different ceremonies, and if not, is it available to you if you want to know it right now?

I've passed through most of the degrees of American Masonry, so yes, I have the material available.

reply to post by fiorano


And, of course, it is the 3° which I was referring to when JPT asked "So you know exactly what it takes to make it to the highest degree or masonry and you know the ceremony for it, etc...?" Because, as has often been said here, there is no higher degree than that of Master Mason.

It's at this point that discussions usually start to break down with things like "how do you know?" etc. Let's not fall prey to that trap again, if at all possible.

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
So, is that weird that a newer mason would have the ceremony content of say a 32 degree mason's ceremony? Thanks for the reply!

No.

In the United States, there is no waiting period between the Third Degree and the Scottish Rite Degrees.

Most Scottish Rite Temples confer the degrees twice per year on large numbers of candidates, over several weekend sessions called "Reunions". Third Degree Masons come in over a couple of weekends, and the Scottish Rite degrees are given back-to-back.

Theoretically, if a new Mason just received his third Degree a couple of weeks before the Scottish Rite Reunion, he could apply for the Scottish Rite degrees, and receive them all over the next few weeks, being a 32° when it was over.

reply to post by Masonic Light


So, are you saying there are secrets the masons know now that they might be killed or hurt over if they divulged them to non-masons? Again, I hear you on your comparisons, to long ago, but again, we live in a different age right now and many things that applied then don't apply now. I guess I don't see a dangerous secret right now. Honestly, can you think of something that would be dangerous to say in this day and age, and I'm not talking about just anything, I'm talking about something that would benefit humanity. For example, if I knew that God didn't exist and could show proof, I would do it. This would obviously be dangerous, but had the potential of helping this world in the long term. So, in this day and age, could you give me some example of something dangerous that HAS to be kept a secret? Then again, if all masons knew the secret, then it wouldn't be that big of a secret after all and is bound to get out. Anyhow, I'll let you answer this.

As to the question why we exist, well would that be to help each other out. I mean, that's not the worldly view, but it certainly is the religious view, in my opinion. Hey, I'm just as selfish as the next guy and I'll admit that, but I do try and be better about it all the time AND I'm not on trial here, masonry is



The initiation stuff you mentioned to me doesn't justify any reason for secrecy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I feel. Feel free to expound on your thoughts or simply just disagree.

JPT

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Crowley tried his best to be controversial. He was also quite a prankster, and did a lot of writing with tongue-in-cheek.

Regardless, I strongly disagree that he persuaded people to seek after "their own power and benefit". Once you get past his hyperbole and bizarre sense of humor, he actually has a pretty profound philosophy.

There are two ways I look at this. The majority of people do not look beyond words, so as far as getting past the initial way he comes off and things he says, I believe most wouldn't get past it. This is bad for society. Second, I believe that you might be interpreting his stuff with your spin that he isn't a bad guy. I could take probably the same stuff you find as profound and maybe I'll agree it's profound, but still will feel he has a negative spin instead of positive. It's as simple as the way you say something. You can call someone fat and hurt their feelings or try and put it another way to put it nicer. It doesn't change the truth, but one way might depress someone and make their life worse and the other might encourage them to lose weight. I have the feeling that no matter what we debate about Crowley, you're going to see him in a good light and me in a bad light.

JPT

Originally posted by Masonic Light


I've passed through most of the degrees of American Masonry, so yes, I have the material available.

Thanks, yes I think someone just answered that in a reply to me just a post or two ago.


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


So, are you saying there are secrets the masons know now that they might be killed or hurt over if they divulged them to non-masons? Again, I hear you on your comparisons, to long ago, but again, we live in a different age right now and many things that applied then don't apply now. I guess I don't see a dangerous secret right now.

Couple of things to consider:

As I mentioned, Masonry does not teach dogmatically. It teaches through symbols. Therefore, some Masons may understand certain "secrets", while others will not. I don't even like calling them "secrets"; a better word would be "mysteries".

But we also have to consider the divine mandate. If one discovers something which really is holy, would he offer it to everybody, knowing that some would purposefully profane and blaspheme it?

I think you mentioned the Bible and secrets earlier. Remember what Jesus told his Apostles: "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you." And further, "To them I speak in parables; but to you, openly".

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
Second, I believe that you might be interpreting his stuff with your spin that he isn't a bad guy. I could take probably the same stuff you find as profound and maybe I'll agree it's profound, but still will feel he has a negative spin instead of positive.

Concerning Crowley, my opinion comes from:

1. Over 20 years of having studied his works.
2. Over 20 years of having studied the works of people who knew him personally, with both good and bad opinions of him.
3. Over 20 years of having studied the philosophical and occult system that he himself had been trained in.

Crowley was not saint, was rather neurotic, and had some emotional problems. On the other hand, he is unique and entertaining in the world of occult literature.

*sigh*

How quickly JPT went from "I respect each person and each person has their right to make their own choice in their life decisions" to "I'm not on trial here, masonry is". Not that I didn't expect it...plenty of other people have come in here before asking "innocent" questions and flattering the Masons who gave them honest replies, only to show their true agenda later. I was hoping JPT wasn't following the same pattern. He still may not be. Time will tell.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Most Scottish Rite Temples confer the degrees twice per year on large numbers of candidates, over several weekend sessions called "Reunions". Third Degree Masons come in over a couple of weekends, and the Scottish Rite degrees are given back-to-back.

Theoretically, if a new Mason just received his third Degree a couple of weeks before the Scottish Rite Reunion, he could apply for the Scottish Rite degrees, and receive them all over the next few weeks, being a 32° when it was over.

So, being able to move up so quickly, would this lesson the importance of the degrees? It's not this exaggerated, but would that be like going from Cub Scout to Eagle Scout in say a month? This is a side debate I guess, but it would almost seem like all the degrees from beginning to say 32nd, are not that important. I'm not saying they aren't but it seems like they are there to humor more than have deep, true meanings.


JPT

reply to post by justpassingthrough


There's no more important degree than the 3rd degree. One could say the Scottish Rite degrees of 4 to 33 are meaningless, and they are in that they hold no weight nor sway over Masonry. Each of them does teach a lesson, however. It's just up to the individual to take his own time to discern that meaning for himself.