Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
Sounds more like "confession" to me.....

What does? I can only assume that you are not attempting to answer my question, however, I shall reiterate for the record. Although the contents of the box, by Fires definition, can be construed as confessional (especially given the Jesuits influence, whereby the confession is considered essential to the 'path of enlightenment'), it is the box (Ark?) itself that interests me. Or rather it is the use of a box that in this way becomes part of the 'ritual' and is venerated by the groups members. Obviously there I have mentioned the christian parallel in the 'Ark' but I am interested in whether the Freemasons, or Rosicrucians use similar methods for the storage of 'ideas' and 'identity'.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


The stuff in "Box x" or "Crate x" (The Sweden Crate) was stored in that particular manner because originally Ernst II had shipped it off to Sweden for safe keeping. They don't necessarily keep things in boxes or crates, per say.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

The stuff in "Box x" or "Crate x" (The Sweden Crate) was stored in that particular manner because originally Ernst II had shipped it off to Sweden for safe keeping. They don't necessarily keep things in boxes or crates, per say.

Oh well...you don't know unless you ask...cheers

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Do freemasons or Skull and Bones for example use a similar system? I know for certain of one other SS that used a 'box' to store their membership list and members writings, and I am curious to know if the practice is commonplace?

Perhaps at one time but our lodge secretary has all of the lodge membership information on his office computer as well as the hardcopies in a file cabinet. As for personal writings, we do have a small library but I have not seen any member prepared literature among them volumes contained therein.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Perhaps at one time but our lodge secretary has all of the lodge membership information on his office computer as well as the hardcopies in a file cabinet. As for personal writings, we do have a small library but I have not seen any member prepared literature among them volumes contained therein.

Thanks for the reply...but I think that the use of the Ark is isolated to the one SS and the useage is quite specifc...and venerated to some degree. I was curious if there was any tradition but since my original assumption about the Illuminati was incorrect...well, I think I can chalk it up to an overactive imagination on my part....thanks for taking the time though, appreciated.

I have another question. In the ritual it says that faith, hope and chairty are masonic beliefs but it also says that the greatest of these is chairty.

A clouded canopy or star-decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive, by the aid of that theological ladder which Jacob in his vision saw ascending from earth to heaven, the three principal rounds of which are denominated Faith, Hope, and Charity; and which admonish us to have faith in God, hope in immortality, and charity to all mankind. Of these, Charity is the greatest; for Faith may be lost in sight; hope ends in fruition; but Charity extends beyond the grave, through the bound-less realms of eternity.

So do this mean that masons feel it is more important to help each other then to belive in god? This seems a little strange to me because I thought that believing in god was most important. This kinda gives me the feeling that it means to give to other masons before believng in god.

Originally posted by Capozzelli
I have another question. In the ritual it says that faith, hope and chairty are masonic beliefs but it also says that the greatest of these is chairty.

A clouded canopy or star-decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive, by the aid of that theological ladder which Jacob in his vision saw ascending from earth to heaven, the three principal rounds of which are denominated Faith, Hope, and Charity; and which admonish us to have faith in God, hope in immortality, and charity to all mankind. Of these, Charity is the greatest; for Faith may be lost in sight; hope ends in fruition; but Charity extends beyond the grave, through the bound-less realms of eternity.

So do this mean that masons feel it is more important to help each other then to belive in god? This seems a little strange to me because I thought that believing in god was most important. This kinda gives me the feeling that it means to give to other masons before believng in god.

I think you misread that which you quoted... " and charity to all mankind". It doesn't say "charity to other Masons", because that's not what Masonry is about.

reply to post by Capozzelli


I think its important to take that in the context that Masonry is not a religion and strongly reminds its members that they are to have their own religion and be good members of their religious community. In the context of that, it is saying that among these three virtues in masonry charity is the greatest. As masonry is not a religion, that it puts charity about faith means to me that charity is the greatest virtue in the masonic order. Remember, masonry places itself below religion, work, and family in other places in the ritual. So, I think of it like this:

Religion/Faith/Etc.
Family
Friends
Work
Masonry

These values taught by masonry are a subset of a larger ranking of values.

Originally posted by Capozzelli
So do this mean that masons feel it is more important to help each other then to belive in god? This seems a little strange to me because I thought that believing in god was most important. This kinda gives me the feeling that it means to give to other masons before believng in god.

My interpretation regarding the passage you referenced always lead me to believe that as a Mason we should already have the prerequisite faith in Diety as well as hope of an afterlife. Hence the reason why Charity is the greatest is that it typically must be ingrained into you to think of your fellowman whenever possible. Charity may be a virtue you already posses but it has been my observations that Masonry enables you to become and act more charitable through its teachings and with the assistance of the Bretheren.

Originally posted by Capozzelli
I have another question. In the ritual it says that faith, hope and chairty are masonic beliefs but it also says that the greatest of these is chairty.

Hi Capozzelli

Just to add to the other replies, this is an excellent example of how the morality of freemasonry is founded on the morality of the Bible, and more specifically the teachings of Christ and the New Testament.

These three principles of freemasonry are more readily understood if you read 1 Corinthians 13. Although more modern translations will refer to Faith, Hope and Love, translations contemporary with the ritual (eg King James) refer to Love as Charity.

To my mind the wider definition of Charity as Love encompasses far far more than just giving money, or doing a poor fellow a favor. Christ taught us to love one another and in essence this is exactly the same teaching. Helping other people without hope of reward is at the heart of freemasonry.

And, as has quite rightly been already pointed out, "other people" does not necessarily mean "other freemasons". Personally I would quite happily go out of my way to help someone who wasn't my friend, just to prove a point (Re: the parable of the Good Samaritan).

Originally posted by Trinityman
(Re: the parable of the Good Samaritan).

Which is also moralized and emblemized in Masonic ritual.

We are constantly taught, as Masons, to help all who we can without causing hardship for ourselves or families.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
Sounds more like "confession" to me.....

What does? I can only assume that you are not attempting to answer my question,

You could assume many things, but YOU WANT to assume I'm attempting to not answer you.

I was direct. The process you're talking about sounds alot like "Confession" as in the catholic church. We do not do "confession" in masonry, and quite to the contrary anything said between masons meant to be confidential is so to the utmost not to even be repeated to other masons.

Now I am realistic enough to know maybe not all masons have been true to that ideal. Which is a shame, because it is central to our integrity. However the idea of keeping a log of people's personal thoughts and ideas or confessions, and then having others have access to that is really contrary to masonry. For that matter writing anything confidential down is sort of flying in teh face of the basic idea that nothing WRITTEN or recorded can ever be kept confidential, which is why we're not supposed to write anything down that should not be public knowledge.

The internet proves this theory, as most all the secrets that have been written down are now public knowledge, there are few secrets left if any. However the tradition of keeping the secrets remain even if every one of them is printed in a book anyone can buy....why? Because keeping the information a secret is no longer the point, the point is being able to keep a secret. It's about integrity.

[edit on 16/7/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
Sounds more like "confession" to me.....

What does? I can only assume that you are not attempting to answer my question,

You could assume many things, but YOU WANT to assume I'm attempting to not answer you.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood, it was simply that your reply had no bearing on the question.

JFK spoke against secret societies and was killed for it. I'm sure a president speaking openly about secret societies and who was a very well respected man can pretty much determine these societies exist.

If Stephen Hawking ever said God exists I'm sure the "rational minded" world would believe him.

JFK was the highest most honorable man as a President, and he said secret societies existed.

reply to post by clg79


The problem of course is that JFK never talked about secret societies, nor was he killed for it. He did at one point talk about secrecy in the press, to a bunch of people in the industry, which is ALWAYS quoted and cited completely out of context (because if they took the whole thing in at once it would be obvious).

Plus in this thread we are talking about a masonic conspiracy. Masonry is not a secret society.

What is the underlying cause? Are they self-promoting with the hopes of ‘rising’ to the infamy of people like Icke? Are they just regurgitating theories they have heard in regards Masonry? Or are they- and this is the theory I tend to favor- completely unaware that there is no Masonic conspiracy?

I do not think anyone can prove, with the evidence that has thus far been provided, a conspiracy of Masonic nature, nor will they.

 

Nail on the head.

Originally posted by clg79
JFK spoke against secret societies and was killed for it. I'm sure a president speaking openly about secret societies and who was a very well respected man can pretty much determine these societies exist.

If Stephen Hawking ever said God exists I'm sure the "rational minded" world would believe him.

JFK was the highest most honorable man as a President, and he said secret societies existed.

1.) I have heard many theories as to why JFK was killed, and I am pretty sure all the most likely ones had alot more to do with the bay of Pigs then any "speech".

2.)Stephen Hawking is more of a god for internet pseudo intellectuals then he is among scientists or even physicist. Not only do I think he has little pull over all the "rational" world, i doubt he has that much pull over most scientist, and most atheists choose to be so out of less then rational reasons. Usually anger toward organized religion is the basis.

3.) JFK was a honorable man, and certainly of higher moral character then most self serving and selfish politicans of today. But I would NOT say he was the most honrable man to attain thatoffice nor in the top 5......and of course secret societies exist....they always have and always will...if you put 3 men on a deserted island at some point 2 will conspire.

[edit on 17/7/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Thanks for your answer. I really tried to probe you guys and I have to admit I really can't say I found anything that bothers me. I'm sure in a lodge somewhere something fishy is occuring but it looks like it might be the exception not the rule. Oh well. You masons are kinda uninteresting in a conspiracy way considering all the stuff I read and heard about before I found this place. If I think of anything else I will ask you.

reply to post by Capozzelli


No problem. I'm happy to be of help, and I think its great that you are willing to probe the source directly before making conclusions. There could very well be something going on somewhere that we don't know about, but as you say, I think all evidence says its not the norm.

You've asked some very interesting questions which have made me have to stop and think, which when it comes to ATS questions about masonry for me is unusual. It has been a good thinking exercise all around!

THE MASONIC CONSPIRACY IS COMPLEX TO ANNUNCIATE IN ANY

RATIONAL FASHION AND IT DOES NOT INCLUDE ALL FREEMASONS

EITHER BUT, WE BELIEVE ONLY THE 32 AND 33RD LEVELS ARE IN-

VOLVED , WHERE A SATANIC SEPERATION TAKES PLACE HOWEVER,

IT IS WELL DEFINED TO THOSE OF A LIKE NATURE!

SINCE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT'S REAL, IT'S JUST THAT YOUR NOT FA-

MILIAR WITH THE SYMBOLOGY AND SECRET RITUALS THAT THEY

ADHERE TOO AND THE WRITINGS OF ALBERT PIKE! AND THEIR SECRECY

IS INTENDED TO KEEP THE PROFANE FROM FIGURING IT ALL OUT!?

HOWEVER, IF YOU UNDERSTAND WASHINGTON D.C., AND WHY IT'S

CALLED THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OR WHY CBS WITH THE ALL SEEING

EYE AND THE C STANDING FOR COLUMBIA, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THE

SECRET SOCIETIES A WHOLE LOT BETTER!!!? STARDUSTER