Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
... Italian Freemasonry is bound to be just as disgustingly perverse.

Or rather, that which calls itself Italian freemasonry, because those lodges of which you speak are not recognized as such by the majority of the masonic world.

The Regular Grand Lodge of Italy has nothing to do with this nonsense, and upholds the principles and practices of freemasonry in what must be a very difficult operating environment.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Or rather, that which calls itself Italian freemasonry, because those lodges of which you speak are not recognized as such by the majority of the masonic world.

Sure. I see your point; and it is valid. However, the other side is this:

Try telling that to the press or indeed the government antimafia commission. They don't care. Nor should they. If UGLE doesn't like that Grand Orient identify themselves as Freemasons then maybe they should invade the damn country and put a stop to it. Otherwise, to the public, it only amounts to infighting and semantic squabbling; and is an extremely inconsequentially esoteric matter at best.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Sure. I see your point; and it is valid. However, the other side is this:

Try telling that to the press or indeed the government antimafia commission. They don't care. Nor should they. If UGLE doesn't like that Grand Orient identify themselves as Freemasons then maybe they should invade the damn country and put a stop to it. Otherwise, to the public, it only amounts to infighting and semantic squabbling; and is an extremely inconsequentially esoteric matter at best.

And I see the other side. Really I do. Its unfortunate that there are groups that style themselves freemasons and go about making mischief. And although the regular GLs quite rightly remain aloof, there are many hundreds of freemasons out there on sites like ATS making exactly these points.

The public does see Italian freemasonry as linked to UK and US freemasonry, of course. That is quite natural. But that doesn't make it correct, and like many aspects of freemasonry it is something many of us spend our free time trying to correct. It's a shame the media doesn't actually start injecting some accuracy into its reporting, or at least some decent research on the subject, but the sad truth is that sensationalism sells and freemasonry has long been the whipping boy of the profiteering media moguls. I'm saddened that the very same people who decry the mainstream media for lies, inaccuracies and agendas on other topics, lap up the shoddy journalism when it comes to freemasonry like it's the breathed word of God.

Some people believe us and some people don't, but isn't that ever the way of the world?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Sorry, not gonna work. You clean your own house.

The public has nothing to do with them naming themselves "Masons," or that they hold cabals in Lodges that claim to be practicing Freemasonry.

Nuances and semantics are for masonic-nerds. We really don't care. If it it has a big G on the front ... well, you know.

That really doesn't make any sense. You say, "Clean your own house", but it isn't our house at all.

Take this as an example. Suppose you and a few friends began meeting regularly, and started calling yourself a "Masonic Lodge". Then you get busted for bank robbery. That obviously has nothing to do with the organization I hold membership in, regardless of what you call yourselves.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Otherwise, to the public, it only amounts to infighting and semantic squabbling; and is an extremely inconsequentially esoteric matter at best.

Not at all. They are completely separate and distinct organizations. It isn't esoteric or abstract in the least.

We went through this with P2. Italian Masonry is traditionally liberal and non-political. P2 was ultra-conservative and pro-Fascist. Our rituals enjoined the teachings of Masonry, based around the principles of ethics and good fellowship. P2 rituals were completely different.

reply to post by Masonic Light


I said "Otherwise, to the public." ...Take my word for it.

You can go on all day about "Irregular" or "Clandestine," or "Grand Orient" vs. "Grand Lodge," but it is all just noise - to us.

We (the non-joiners) don't care.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
"Clean your own house", but it isn't our house at all.

Lol ... too funny.

Well, I can assure you that it ain't my house. Not even close. Nor is it a new garage springing up from the same foundation.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
You clean your own house.

My house, Masonry in the United States, is for the most part and to the best of my knowledge, already clean.

The societal ills of Italy are a centuries, and in some instances millenial, old problem. That these issues have permiated Italian Masonry is not surprising nor revelatory.

My philosophy on Masonry is that the implementation of its tenets and principles is what truly makes one a Mason, these individuals and to a larger extent Masonry in Italy obviously do not practice this ideal.

It is not for us to clean their house but for them to realize that they are deviating from the established customs of the Fraternity and remediate themselves.



[edit on 21-6-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Here is the problem.

Freemasonry is not centralized. There is no coordinating body, no international lodge, nothing which represents "regular freemasonry" that has authority over anyone else. Such a body would be required before regular masons could influence other regular masons. But that body does not exist - nor, if it could, would it have any authority over people who are not regular masons but decide to start their own lodges. Grand Lodges cant even control other regular Grand Lodges.

While I hesitate to ever use religion as a parallel example because the antis are waiting to pounce, I'll go ahead because I think this illustrates the problem well: this is like asking a mainstream Muslim mosque to stop a Muslim extremist terrorist cell. They can't do it. Not because they wouldn't like to, but because the vast majority of mainstream Muslims have no power or authority over what radicals do.

The only thing that can be done when it comes to dealing with irregular lodges is dropping recognition - which, in this case, has been done. Even if the UGLE was to somehow go rogue and start getting involved with *insert bad thing here* , no other Grand Lodge could do anything but drop recognition.

I'm not sure what you expect masons to do. We can't show up in black SUV's and take over irregular Grand Lodges.


[edit on 21-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
this is like asking a mainstream Muslim mosque to stop a Muslim extremist terrorist cell. They can't do it. Not because they wouldn't like to, but because the vast majority of mainstream Muslims have no power or authority over what radicals do.

I actually accept that analogy, even though it is kind of obvious and unnecessary.

Osama is as much Muslim as a friend of mine who is a good person, and doesn't give a bad name to his religion.

Even though my friend hates Bin Laden, he does not deny that the latter is a Muslim. A bad one? Yes. But never that he is not a Muslim.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I think it is necessary - maybe not for you - but for other people who don't seem to understand the dynamics of how lodges are organized.

However, I have many Muslim friends who would say Osama bin Laden is not a Muslim - that he is the antipathy of what it means to be Muslim. I think it is more appropriate perhaps to say that Osama would claim he is a Muslim - just as, in this case, I'm sure these irregular lodges are going to claim they are really Masons. Just as I can't stop Osama from claiming hes a Muslim, I can't stop irregular lodges from claiming they are Masons.

Has there been any new info on these guys? I find it very concerning that things like this happened it it gets very little coverage. I still can't find much info on this story. It only makes me wonder if more serious things are happening that we don't know about.

sorry......double post.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by Capozzelli]

Click here for more information.

If there is a Masonic conspiracy, it's pretty high up in the ranks.

On both sides of my family tree, multiple people were/are members of Masons and the various female counterpart organizations. My late grandfather was a Shriner also. Two living relatives are in Masons and Eastern Star now, and at one point I was a member of Eastern Star. I got bored with it and quit. I got tired of having to buy a new formal gown every year for the new officer installation. It gets expensive.

To be honest, those meetings are boring. And nothing really goes on at all. They go through the ritual writings for the open/close of the meeting and the rest of the meeting is planning parties, donations for the poor and other misc bits, like who will bring food to the next meeting. Even the initiations are boring. If the old-timers forget the lines someone is always there to help out.

I experienced nothing sinister or evil. So if there is a conspiracy, it has to be way higher than just the Blue Lodge or the Shriners.

I know many Masons locally. Their main source of fun is that it's a manly get together to just go through the motions of the meeting, and then it's off to drink beer and eat food afterwards. Those old farts love gossip and dirty jokes too. You should see their booze collection.

I have to admit though.. the weirdest behavior I ever saw was the female counterpart group to the Shriners that no one talks about, The Daughters of the Nile. I went to a public officer installation (over 10 years ago) and was kind of freaked out. Grown women dressed up like Egyptians and their meeting area looked like something out of the Cleopatra movie, complete with large stuffed wild animals everywhere.

I also had exposure to the young people's groups, like Rainbow Girls and De Molay. Other than a type of brainwashing to ensure total allegiance to the government, I didn't see anything too weird there. I even went to a De Molay conclave to serve as chaperone for the young ladies that were competing for the State Sweetheart competition.

reply to post by coiledclue


The name changes but the words stay the same. Have you had the head of the secret service in your office lately?

I was rummaging around and found you've had problems of your own, particularly with Bantown, not sure why you feel the need to spread that around, but I can understand your persecution complex.

Either way, as much as enjoyed the last spectacle, it would be appreciated if you could keep to the topic instead of feeding your own frenzy.

Originally posted by Ceara
If there is a Masonic conspiracy, it's pretty high up in the ranks.

Then of course, as a former eastern star, you know there are no "higher ranks." As for DeMolay brainwashing - I never knew instilling a sense of patriotism was brainwashing.

Originally posted by Ceara
I also had exposure to the young people's groups, like Rainbow Girls and De Molay. Other than a type of brainwashing to ensure total allegiance to the government, I didn't see anything too weird there.

To what type of 'brainwashing' are you refering?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Box X has to do with the Bavarian Illuminati: such things as the Order's bureaucracy, and its day-to-day activities during the years of Bode's rule; the reports from Provincials; a membership list with about 70+ members that were heretofore unknown to researchers before; and the Quibus Licet letters from said listed members - ie, their little journals and exercises that they were required to keep and complete. The hierarchy was privy to these most intimate thoughts; privacy was nonexistent and blackmail was always possible since the initiates were encouraged to elaborate on the most intimate details on their daily lives (they were even encouraged and required to give up the goods of family members). What the initiates wrote in response to their superiors' questions, these are the Quibus Licet reports - and they are in the collection, with an Illuminati name attached (of course) with each one.

I'm not sure if you can help me with this, or if not if anyone else here can. I'm not so much interested in the Illuminati as I am in this style of 'record keeping'. Is it usual for Secret Societies to keep a box like this...? Do freemasons or Skull and Bones for example use a similar system? I know for certain of one other SS that used a 'box' to store their membership list and members writings, and I am curious to know if the practice is commonplace?

Sounds more like "confession" to me.....

On another note
I'm still shocked by this talk of corruption in Italy....who'd of thunk? In Itally??? NOOOOO I just can't beleive it.