Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

The long hallway that has all the past greats of the Scottish Rite.

Even the 'fat guy' whom you love so much?

Especially the "fatboy," I had mentioned earlier. It is the "fatboy," after all, who is the occultist extraordinaire; who derides Christianity while praising the kabbalah, hermeticism, alchemy, paganism and occultism in general, in his Morals and Dogma. For a Christian - which I get the impression that sir_chancealot indeed is - memorializing Albert Pike isn't something that they would view as laudable.

Originally posted by Capozzelli
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

 

Do you think that there are any masonic conspiracys other then cronyism? Is cronyism something that you think happens in masonry often? Have you attempted to prove that it is happening?

There's all kinds throughout history. And, unlike the previous mason who boasted about his learning and yet did not give examples when asked; I, on the other hand, will be specific and give precise scholarly sources, primary sources, and those of a contemporary nature. In large part this is an answer to the entire premise of the thread. My post might as well be called "Why I can prove a Masonic Conspiracy has occurred in the past, and will likely occur again in the future."

1. Strict Observance (c.1751-82): a conspiracy, through-and-through. One of its major tenets, besides being the first to institutionalize Templar pomp and pageantry with Freemasonry, was to infiltrate the Lodges and society in general: this included (as early as 1755) directives to take control of orphanages in order to steal their money; to found military academies in order to indoctrinate and control the noble class; and the subversion of the government. Besides infiltrating and controlling the majority of Central Europe's masonic lodges (that is, the the Holy Roman Empire) within a few decades, they also introduced and perfected the art of the "unknown superior" ruse. See Edward M. Batley, “Reforming the Whole World: Masonic Secrecy and Treason in Eighteenth-Century Germany,” URL: www.lodgehope337.org.uk...; and René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001.
   
2. American Revolution: whether it was a "good" thing or not, is besides the point. The point is that the masons (as a group and as individuals) coordinated and agitated for revolution. And it set the precedent that they are willing to use Freemasonry to subvert society to their own ends. See Chapter 9 (pp. 90-109) of Jasper Ridley, The Freemasons: A History of the World's Most Powerful Secret Society, Arcade Publishing, 2001; Steven C. Bullock, Revolutionary Brotherhood: Freemasonry and the Transformation of the American Social Order, 1730-1840, University of North Carolina Press, 1998.
   
3. Illuminatenorden: Order of the Illuminati. They set the precedent that Freemasonry can be successfully co-opted and controlled and directed toward a nefarious end. See Terry Melanson, Perfectibilists: The 18th Century Bavarian Order of the Illuminati, Trine Day, 2008 (forthcoming in August); Le Forestier, op. cit.; the original writings: Einige Originalschriften des Illuminatenordens (1787), and Nachtrag von weitern Originalschriften (1787); Augustin Barruel, Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism [1798], Real-View-Books Classics Reprint, 2002.
   
4. The Carbonari: same m.o. as the Illuminati; except much more successful, revolutionary, and deadly. The Carbonari recruited Masons, stole their degrees, stole their rituals, and put them and their Lodges to work for the cause of revolution. Once again - Freemasonry duped. The Italian uprising in the early 1820s - "much of the preparation for revolution had been done by the Masonic lodges," writes James H. Billington, in Fire in the Minds of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith, Basic Books Inc., 1980, p. 553 n. 27. Chapter 5 (pp. 128-145) of the latter book has much detail on the Carbonari and goes into other aspects of masonry's involvement with revolutionaries and "republican agitation"; the notes are a goldmine. Also see R. John Rath, “The Carbonari: Their Origins, Initiation Rites, and Aims,” The American Historical Review, Vol. 69, No. 2, 1964; and Saint-Edme [actually, Pierre-Joseph Briot], Constitution et Organisation des Carbonari ou Documents exacts sur tout ce qui concerne l'existence, l'origine et le but de cette Société Secrète, Paris: 1821.
   
5. Memphis Misraim: (clandestine masonry; I know) during the early 1800s and until the close of the century, the "Order of Memphis" was practically the one common (masonic) denominator of all the revolutionary agitators in Europe: Louis Blanc, Mazzini, Garibaldi, Filippo Buonarroti, Charles Teste. The Order of Memphis (as it was sometimes called), in turn, linked up with the Carbonari, revolutionary Philadelphians (La Grande Loge des Philadelphes), La Charbonnerie Démocratique Universelle, the Commune Révolutionnaire, Young Europe, and the First International. See Boris I. Nicolaevsky, "Secret Societies and the First International," in Milorad M. Drachovitch (ed.), The Revolutionary Internationals, 1864-1943 (Stanford University Press: 1966), pp. 36-56; Andrew Prescott, “The Cause of Humanity: Charles Bradlaugh and Freemasonry,” (2003); Arthur Lehning, "Buonarroti and His International Secret Societies," International Review of Social History, I, (1956), pp. 112-140; Mark A. Lause, "Walking Like an Egyptian: the American Destinies of a Revolutionary French Secret Society," Association for the Study of Esotericism, Conference on Western Esotericism, (Kellogg Center, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan), June 3-5, 2004.
   
6. P2 (Propaganda Due) and modern Italian Masonry in general: See Donatella Della Porta and Alberto Vannucci, Corrupt Exchanges: Actors, Resources, and Mechanisms of Political Corruption, Aldine Transaction, 1999; the last two books from Philip Willan; Luigi DiFonzo, St. Peter's Banker, (Watts: 1983); and Daniele Ganser, NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe (Routledge: 2004).
   
   
   [edit on 10-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Excellent and informative post...however...are we not looking at attempts to infiltrate and influence Freemasonry in all these instances, as opposed to Freemasonry itself conspiring???

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

1. Strict Observance (c.1751-82): a conspiracy, through-and-through. One of its major tenets, besides being the first to institutionalize Templar pomp and pageantry with Freemasonry, was to infiltrate the Lodges and society in general: this included (as early as 1755) directives to take control of orphanages in order to steal their money; to found military academies in order to indoctrinate and control the noble class; and the subversion of the government. Besides infiltrating and controlling the majority of Central Europe's masonic lodges (that is, the the Holy Roman Empire) within a few decades, they also introduced and perfected the art of the "unknown superior" ruse. See Edward M. Batley, “Reforming the Whole World: Masonic Secrecy and Treason in Eighteenth-Century Germany,” URL: www.lodgehope337.org.uk...; and René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001.
   

The article that you link to is very interesting but I do get the overall impression that Johnson was an 'Agent Provocateur' and further that he was most likely in the employ of the British or rather the English on some level or other.

I do agree with you, in the respect that the Freemasons have been used for conspiracy, however seldom is it successfully accomplished without discovery - the main purpose seems to be to cause its suppression and defamation, rather than to realistically 'overthrow' governments. And there always seems to be a Jesuit in the background somewhere!

That said I do lean towards a belief in synarchism and throughout history there is ample indication of 'hidden hands' directing events, but I feel that any involvement of Freemasonry is a little further back and that the very nature of the way in which it is constructed rendered it useful for only a specific purpose and limited period of time. The nature of Freemasonry is in my opinion 'conformist' and it conforms to whichever political model is in place, it seems that only with the influence of the French did the American Freemasons find the revolutionary spirit and I feel this was effective upon specific individuals rather than the organisation as a whole. I'm open to persuasion though.

Just to change topic very slightly, have you come across the name Count Rumford in the course of your research on the Bavarian Illuminati? He was a 'spy' for the British during the American revolution and later found himself in Bavaria around the early 1790s (he was also a scientist and is perhaps better known for this work, I think he was a founder of the Royal Institute).

Also, you may be able to help me with something else...the Lodges of the Three Globes and the Three Roses...can I assume that they were strictly for Trinitarians?

Thanks

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Excellent and informative post...however...are we not looking at attempts to infiltrate and influence Freemasonry in all these instances, as opposed to Freemasonry itself conspiring???

You hit on the key issue here. Terry seems obsessed with framing a position which he himself cannot support, and for which he wants to berate people as if they are little children for not accepting his be-knighted self importance.

In each of these instances he referenced, he was speaking about an infiltration and co-opting of a system, a putting to use of an organization structure for purposes in service of a foreign, parasitic shall we say, force.

None of this has to do with Masonry in and of itself, and Mason's themselves have dealt with this issue.

In Terry's absurd conspiracy mentality, he assumes and seeks to project and impose his beliefs onto the collective as if he actually get it.

To most studied and rational researchers, we are able to discern from the infiltration from the core of the system.

I get so tired of watching this guy blab on and on and on as if he actually get it. The guy is the worst form out there. They are called "opportunists".

When the guy starts to deal with the core issues, we can assume he has grown up beyond his third grade history regurgitation exercise. When he can analyze rationally Jewish influence on Masonry, and the philosophical reasons why Jews were kept out of the Lodge system (typically to prevent the very same infiltrations he wants to whine about as being proof of some grand conspiracy), then he can be counted as a man who has grown up instead of the little whining kid trying to keep information from the surface lest the parents come to understand the full depth and nature of the dirty crimes committed by the infiltrating units upon Masonry through time.

This great war has been going on for Millenia, and Mason's need to get a back bone and deal forcefully and with a focused argument against the likes of Terry who are clueless and want to define Masonry for Masons.

Terry has provided no proof that Masons have ever conspired. He provided proof that Masonry has been infiltrated. The infiltration is well know to Masons of repute. Such infiltration has never made the infiltration "Masonry".

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Excellent and informative post...

Thanks.

however...are we not looking at attempts to infiltrate and influence Freemasonry in all these instances, as opposed to Freemasonry itself conspiring???

Both. But the modus operandi of masonic conspiracy usually has the appearance of infiltration from without right before the poop hits the fan. Once that occurs, the story is necessarily convoluted and can only be deciphered to any modicum of certainty decades if not centuries after the fact.

Just to change topic very slightly, have you come across the name Count Rumford in the course of your research on the Bavarian Illuminati? He was a 'spy' for the British during the American revolution and later found himself in Bavaria around the early 1790s (he was also a scientist and is perhaps better known for this work, I think he was a founder of the Royal Institute).

Yes, indeed; quite the character, eh!

Throughout my researches, I had come across his name frequently. After a few times I got the distinct impression that he was playing both sides, the Bavarian court and the Illuminati at the same time. He was in Bavaria in the 1780s and into the 90s - the exact heyday of the Illuminati - and was there at the court council in Munich at the precise moment when the Elector had begun the persecutions. Anyway, he was claimed as a member of the Illuminati by the German occultist-turned-historian Leopold Engel, in Geschichte des Illuminaten-Ordens (1906) and by another historian, August Fournier, in "Illuminaten und Patrioten" (1885). Through the claims of the above two, the current world expert on the Illuminati, Hermann Schüttler included Sir Benjamin Thompson aka Count Rumford (with an asterisk, because it hasn't been proved) in his 1500+ list of the Illuminati: Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens 1776-1787/93 (Munich: ars una 1991), pp. 153-4.

I didn't include him in the bios of members in my book. I do plan on investigating him further, though, and will probably write an article on my findings in a new site strictly about the Bavarian Illuminati which I will be launching pretty soon.

Also, you may be able to help me with something else...the Lodges of the Three Globes and the Three Roses...can I assume that they were strictly for Trinitarians?

I don't know. But the Three Globes at Berlin was totally controlled (during the period of the Bavarian Illuminati) by the Golden and Rosy Cross. The latter were mystical christian-kabbalist alchemists, who practiced theurgy, even. Their degree system - believe it or not - was copied almost exactly by the later occultists in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. On the surface they were raging absolutist Christians with a hatred of the Illuminati and documented ties with the ex-Jesuits; but they were also the keepers (progenitors and torch-bearers) of the most sought-after occult secrets. Their offshoot, the Asiatic Brethren, even linked up with the authentic Sabbatean/Frankist, kabbalist stream of heretical Judaism.

Originally posted by android1296
None of this has to do with Masonry in and of itself, and Mason's themselves have dealt with this issue.

In Terry's absurd conspiracy mentality, he assumes and seeks to project and impose his beliefs onto the collective as if he actually get it.

Terry has provided no proof that Masons have ever conspired. He provided proof that Masonry has been infiltrated. The infiltration is well know to Masons of repute. Such infiltration has never made the infiltration "Masonry".

All squabbling aside, your post obviously included, I have found Fire to be both informed on his chosen subject and courteous in reciprocation to my own courtesy towards him. The squabbling and personal attacks are coming from all sides, and personally I prefer not to become involved. Admittedly while some patronise, Fire does tend to be slightly more direct and irreverent, but overall I find the added dimension that he has brought to this board refreshing. And just as with some of the patronisation that is delivered by others I can overlook it given the substance that he adds to the overall debate.

In short intelligent discussion has been lacking on this board and it has been rather dull for a few months, it is a lot less so since he arrived, and hopefully once the testosterone levels drop and everyone gets used to each other the one up-manship may diminish. I am optimistic at least.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I didn't include him in the bios of members in my book. I do plan on investigating him further, though, and will probably write an article on my findings in a new site strictly about the Bavarian Illuminati which I will be launching pretty soon.

Can't wait for that. I can't wait for the book, either. Amazon.co.uk has the work scheduled for an August release. Is this correct? I've pre-ordered it.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Throughout my researches, I had come across his name frequently. After a few times I got the distinct impression that he was playing both sides, the Bavarian court and the Illuminati at the same time. He was in Bavaria in the 1780s and into the 90s - the exact heyday of the Illuminati - and was there at the court council in Munich at the precise moment when the Elector had begun the persecutions. Anyway, he was claimed as a member of the Illuminati by the German occultist-turned-historian Leopold Engel, in Geschichte des Illuminaten-Ordens (1906) and by another historian, August Fournier, in "Illuminaten und Patrioten" (1885). Through the claims of the above two, the current world expert on the Illuminati, Hermann Schüttler included Sir Benjamin Thompson aka Count Rumford (with an asterisk, because it hasn't been proved) in his 1500+ list of the Illuminati: Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens 1776-1787/93 (Munich: ars una 1991), pp. 153-4.

Marvellous. I was watching a documentary a couple of weeks ago that included reference to his work and a very brief mention of his being in Bavaria - my ears pricked up immediately and I thought that it could not be coincidence. I would expect that he was a British agent, probably for the Crown, though he could also have been a member of UGLE. I very much look forward to your article.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Also, you may be able to help me with something else...the Lodges of the Three Globes and the Three Roses...can I assume that they were strictly for Trinitarians?

I don't know. But the Three Globes at Berlin was totally controlled (during the period of the Bavarian Illuminati) by the Golden and Rosy Cross. The latter were mystical christian-kabbalist alchemists, who practiced theurgy, even. Their degree system - believe it or not - was copied almost exactly by the later occultists in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. On the surface they were raging absolutist Christians with a hatred of the Illuminati and documented ties with the ex-Jesuits; but they were also the keepers (progenitors and torch-bearers) of the most sought-after occult secrets. Their offshoot, the Asiatic Brethren, even linked up with the authentic Sabbatean/Frankist, kabbalist stream of heretical Judaism.

Religion (or pseudo-religion), organised or otherwise, is largely lost on me, but as a means of proliferating change it interests me enormously. I am inclined to believe that Freemasonry in Prussia was used as a means to unite Britain and Prussia/Germany - much in the same way as the Book of Common Prayer was used to create the pretense of Anglican protestantism (rather than the orthodoxy that it is in reality) in order to cement trade relations with the Lutheran Prussians which resulted in the Anglo-Schmalkaldic League trade alliance in the late 1500s. Obviously this served the purpose of utilising Prussia and the low-lands as a bulwark between Britain and the Holy Roman Empire. Britain is very good at getting others to fight its battles in Europe.

reply to post by android1296


The only thing I see is this:

"so tired of watching this guy blab on and on"

"we can assume he has grown up beyond his third grade"

"he wants to whine about"

"then he can be counted as a man who has grown up instead of the little whining kid"

It's beyond antagonism, and quite frankly this can only be settled in the real world - if you get my drift.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by android1296

All squabbling aside, your post obviously included, I have found Fire to be both informed on his chosen subject and courteous in reciprocation to my own courtesy towards him.

I don't know. I have read through a lot of his original material and truthfully have not found him to well informed at all. So I guess I would have to hear what you consider to be his "chosen subject matter". For instance, you will find some frothing lunatic rant above regarding the esoteric constructions that are at the core of the whole war going down. Does this count as being evidence of some be-knighted "expert"?

I, for one, and many others you can be sure, are not such an easy audience to pander to such a person.

The fact of the matter is - Terry has provided no proof that there is a grand Masonic conspiracy and yet lies and deflects even as he speaks clear that there are clearly infiltrations to Masonry that we outsiders and indeed, Masonic insiders, clearly are already versed on.

The question becomes - why the bizarre framing that this guy indulges in? He should be able to create the necessary disconnect from Masonry and deal with the counter insurgency elements that infiltrate and corrupt Masonry.

The guy cannot do that because he would then need to be versed in the esoterics, or "the religion" as it were, the Speculative side of the Craft, but by his own words, he is so traumatized to deal with the subject rationally and ethically that his work is clouded by what become rather bizarre and occluded positions that do more harm than good from a truth telling point of view.

Fire does tend to be slightly more direct and irreverent, but overall I find the added dimension that he has brought to this board refreshing. And just as with some of the patronisation that is delivered by others I can overlook it given the substance that he adds to the overall debate.

Yes. I can agree with you on this. Someone who is blind as a bat ignorant and yet a fervent believer in his own religion tends to make for a rather fascinating personality. I can think of others who share this disease. George Bush is a good start. Paul Wolfowitz another. Many very smart people consider Wolfowitz to be a "genius", yet in non-Jewish centric circles the guy is known to be essentially "crack head stupid".

Yet Wolfowitz can bring all manner of facts and figures to the table and yet not a clue how they really fit other than his preconceived position.

Terry reminds me of these type of >SNIP

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Both. But the modus operandi of masonic conspiracy usually has the appearance of infiltration from without right before the poop hits the fan. Once that occurs, the story is necessarily convoluted and can only be deciphered to any modicum of certainty decades if not centuries after the fact.

A statement so based on conjecture. Leaping to your own conclusions again? And for real fits and giggles. How come you don't focus your attention on Jewish conspiracies? How come you don't deal with real issues, like the Likud/israel organized crime syndicates linked to the Bavarian Illuminati and OTO?

Do these elements of the game fit into your research, or do you conveniently leave out that history which makes your work less palatable to the current language overlords?



I didn't include him in the bios of members in my book. I do plan on investigating him further, though, and will probably write an article on my findings in a new site strictly about the Bavarian Illuminati which I will be launching pretty soon.

Also, you may be able to help me with something else...the Lodges of the Three Globes and the Three Roses...can I assume that they were strictly for Trinitarians?

I don't know. But the Three Globes at Berlin was totally controlled (during the period of the Bavarian Illuminati) by the Golden and Rosy Cross. The latter were mystical christian-kabbalist alchemists, who practiced theurgy, even. Their degree system - believe it or not - was copied almost exactly by the later occultists in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. On the surface they were raging absolutist Christians with a hatred of the Illuminati and documented ties with the ex-Jesuits; but they were also the keepers (progenitors and torch-bearers) of the most sought-after occult secrets. Their offshoot, the Asiatic Brethren, even linked up with the authentic Sabbatean/Frankist, kabbalist stream of heretical Judaism.

So you do deal with the Jewish infiltration of Masonry, and yet you actually think this all has anything to do with Masonry? These groups at their core philosophical constructs are Talmudic, wherein Talmud traditionally is what Masonry has been against, the Talmud being a rather nasty treatise on debauchery being institutionalized as godly.

So all this Masonic theory you are ranting against is really Jewish infiltration into the Mystery Schools?



[edit on 11-6-2008 by android1296]

>SNIP<

Tell me.

Where is the grand conspiracy implicating Masons? Or is it more accurately that what is and has been Masonry is simply being co-opted by external forces and hence, by definition, really have nothing to do with Masonry?

[MOD edit for unacceptable content]



[edit on 6/11/2008 by yeahright]

"LMAO!"

(x9)

It's all gone snapped in here!

Guys, please stop - I am in danger of wetting myself or splitting a rib or some other embarrassing laughter inflicted affliction.

Fire - did you really have to mention feltching, there is a lady present and I may have delicate sensibilities.

Click here for more information.

[Mod Edit for off-topic one line inappropriate comment]

[edit on 6/11/2008 by yeahright]

Dudes, you both realize you are looking at getting yourselves banned, right? Look, if you can't talk to each other reasonably, then you need to leave this thread. You aren't helping either of your points being here and bickering at each other. Both of you are skating around questions and attacking each other, one less blatantly than the other.
So, either address only the questions posed to one another or stop replying completely, or you will be banned.