No Sex Before Marriage

I see this is only going from bad to worse.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Mods. I ask that you review all of my posts in this thread and tell me whether or not I was rude to said poster. I've gone back and re-read everything I wrote and can't see where I was blatantly rude. The only terminology I can see that is remotely close is insinuating whammy was "puffed up." The rest of my posts were trying to reiterate my point and defend myself from blatant lies and slanderous remarks as to my beliefs.

Yes, you're 'puffed up' reference was what initially made me wince but also the 'beyond the pale' comment. Not sure where you are from as it can have different meanings but I am familiar with that phrase and in my area it basically means that person is a moron [by implying that person is 'beyond the pale' of intellect; dense; stupid].

There were some other aggressive remarks but those stuck out in my mind. Like I said, though: I'm not crying over it. It's just something I noticed. We all have different styles that range between passive, aggressive, and passive-aggressive and it is my opinion you are being needlessly aggressive. No worries either way, though. It truly is not that big of a deal to me and it's not like your violating the T&C's- you're just fervent in your opinion.

Wow. I never used the phrase 'spliced together by the church'. You don't like what I write, so you try to publically discredit me with blatant lies? I said that it was man who put together the Bible and that man has interpreted it. Some of it they got wrong...it is not what is meant in the original Greek and Hebrew.

"It is the church and its leaders who have done a fine effort in 'rewriting' or 'reinterpreting' what the Bible says." ~Freenergy

"The Bible was put together by man, has been revised and, as such, is open to human error and interpretation." ~Freenergy

Among a few other quotes.

If I find myself guilty about any of this it would be point #2. My only point in my post was taking exception with your comment that we chose out of our own free will to have pre-marital sex when there is no such thing. That is all.

Then feel free to rephrase it where it would read, 'It is our free will choice to have premarital sex.' I was using it as a figure of speech but you are turning it into an unnecessary theological throw-down. I still do not agree fully with your opinion concerning free will but changing the wording will solve our problem and the mountain that was created out of the mole hill will be no more.

[edit on 5/23/2008 by AshleyD]

Is too bad that I reached this thread so late, while I am open minded about sex and see sex as a natural act of human beings reproduction and enjoyment I waited until I was married that was 27 years ago.

I educated my children into the dangers of promiscuous sex and unwanted pregnancy from very young age, I never condemn sex and made it look dirty and sinful but something that should be shared and enjoyed when ready.

Until this day my daughter 24 keeps herself celibate even with all the education she have and been considered a "party girl" she also feels that the person she shares intimacy with should be special.

My son after seen his high school friend going through unwanted pregnancies and fatherhood at 21 he has been safe so far.

I guess the best way to teach children about sex is to show them the good the bad and the ugly and rather than prohibition is better prevention.

To me is more of a family matter than chruch matter.

I'm not sure if moderators respond on board or in private, Bro.

I started two threads on Sexuality and how the church system conspires to keep away the truth of freedom from the people, and they were both deleted or sent into oblivious boards or somewhere in cyberspace.

So just go on with your comments even in the face of opposition that tries to get you to violate a rule, when they themselves seem to have crossed the boundary.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

As in sex just keep pushing and flowing until the END.

From what I have seen of the Bible it teaches people to act through the will of God, not their own will. I think in a way, free will is a path to destruction as in its an excuse to do whatever you want without considering the circumstances or being bound by a system. Systems maintain control just as every religion does.

Every book of every religion has some sort of system in it that people go by even being Spiritual which I am (not religious) has a system to go by, following the Light, doing good, helping people. As soon as you throw free will in all this changes and there is no thought of consequence. For example a person says "I wont help them because I don't feel like it (free will) or I will help that person because spirituality or religion teaches me to (a system) big difference.

I cant count how many people have said to me 'its my right to smoke or drink because I have free will". A true statement but does anyone really want the choice to rot their lungs and decay their liver all on the count of "free will". Now if there was a set system towards drinking and smoking only the dedicated would stick to it, the carefree don't.

I find people I know who argue the 'free will' are usually the people who are afraid of commitment and dedication to anything outside their scope of likes and dislikes.

While we are still on the topic of free will. Didn't Lucifer want free will, wasn't he jealous of humans becuase they had free will? Wasn't he casted out from heaven because he desired free will and in doing so rebelled against god and did not perform Gods will?

Wouldn't No Sex Before Marriage be against free will?

reply to post by 12.21.12


Personally I think free will means no commitment to anything, its a slap happy way of dealing with what life throws at people. How many people would rather ignore or dismiss things rather than deal with them.

reply to post by Drakiir


You do see the line drawn in the sand then don't you? Governing over peoples free will is what the Roman Empire is notorious for. Think of all the fake money that is floating around that we don't need. Except under the current state of government, it is illegal to build or settle unless you own or lease the property.

Do you see birds and bees doing this nonsense? No. You know why, it's because by just being one with nature they ARE doing god's will.

We are in a way less advanced then animals, because the animal kingdom does not have this rediculous system of land and property rights.

Animals thrive. Humanity is going backwards.

reply to post by 12.21.12


Im not in anyway governing over anyone. Dedication to anything is not attached to free will it is attached to the desire from inspiration to do a deed. Free will is a way of releasing yourself from that, "nah I don't have to" as apposed to "I want to because its right"

Im not telling people what to do with there free will Im just saying to people to stop using it as an excuse to be careless and carefree of anything. Thats what it has become these days and excuse, look at the world and there is plenty of proof. And the Roman Empire dictated to its people to control them, it never encourage sensible decision making and commitment as Im doing.

reply to post by Drakiir


Well then, everybody has free will. Whether they use it for good or bad is a personal choice. I believe that most people have the ability to make choices, for better or worse.

I also believe choices can be influenced greatly and some tools to do this would be religion, government, money, food, etc;

You guys might be on to something with free will.

reply to post by 12.21.12


Yes choices can be influenced greatly by many things througout life as will be the case forever. Unfortunately not everyone learns from the choices they make and that can have an impact on them and people around them.

Wonder how the world would be if everyone made the right choice, everytime. Its asking the impossible I know but I wonder how the world would be.

Suddenly a perfect world doesn't seem so bad after-all

reply to post by Drakiir


Yeah I agree, I think religion and government, especially in western society seperates us from nature. Which obviously takes it's toll on the "freedom of will" thing. I think that if people were given an opportunity to make natural decisions for themselves rather than for money we would be better off. Problem is there are so many who want to impose their will on others, so their is no balance.

reply to post by 12.21.12


Yep totally with you on that

I think there is more guided in todays world. Every decision we make is based on something and the more influences that are put onto it the more distorted the end decision is.

if there were less distortions to deal with than the chances of the decision being made would be more accurate and precise, but I think to achieve that we would have to go back to the bare basics of life. I think as you said when nature takes its course our ability to make good decisions is excellent but when incentives get added, like money suddenly they get distorted.

It looks like we both wouldnt mind a perfect world after-all

reply to post by Drakiir


Well that day will come soon my friend. Thousands of years of suppression never did this planet any good, more and more are becoming aware of that.

Interesting how this initially started out and what it has become. But I assume most threads drift that way. Free will is about making choices as has been said. Society contructs rules to keep civility. If you choose to break such rules you suffer the consequences.

Going back to the initial discussion, I'm amazed at how people tend to take the bible literally. A book, for the most part, written my men who, like always, are products of their time. Look at ancient civilizations and sex. At the middle ages. At the renaissance. Even the concept of fidelity has changed over time. Marriage used to be about combining incomes and property. Not necessarily about love and lifelong monogomy. That is a more recent development. The rules change over time. I'm amazed at how little we tend to look at history.

I'm sorry but I just don't take a sexual act as that pious. God gave us the will, the interest, the parts, etc. It is an incredible act of physical pleasure--can be love and can be simply an incredible physical shared experience and that's it. Men and women have been engaging in it for reasons beyond procreation and love since the dawn of time. If a couple chooses monogamy or a person wants to wait until marriage, that is fine. But don't push that as the absolute for everyone. That construct is simply not reflective of human nature or reality. Go back to the Utah kid's posting. Even in the most strict of cultures it has been expressed. In fact, the more you repress it, the more it happens underground. Look at our society now. Billy Clinton plays around and is impeached. Kennedy did it and it was swept under the rug. We have this pious attitude yet porn is more prevelant than ever. What does that tell you? Look to the Victorians. Until we truly free outselves from the repression from expression this hypocrisy will continue. And those of you spouting scripture, look to your "leaders"--they are some of the worst "sinners." Just my humble opinion...

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


I would have to say that on the 'sex front' that it has become a meaningless hobby for most people and the worst part is thats becoming a reality. Promoting sex in this light as porn-stars do, I think is degrading and yet in the other hand they ask respect towards woman, now thats a hypocrisy for you.

Personally I respect woman very much and think that treating sex as a lust filled hobby isn't what its all about, there is no true meaning in that. I have asked so many people if they think making love and sex are the same thing, well the news for them is it isn't the same. It isn't just a different word, one is a really amazing experience and the other is an empty 'jackhammer fest' that ends in a 'im tired'.

Just before anyone jumps on this reply as a fantastical fairy-tale I am a Purist and I believe that even lust is impure, drinking and smoking is to me is impure etc. There arent many of me around but I find it has given me pride, belief and self control which I would never of thought I could have.

Im cool with different views on the subject and am not saying Im 100% percent pure myself but I am transitioning to that day by day and am devoted to it. So Im just letting people know about it as I have had some people say to me 'you live in fairyland' or 'you watch too much opera' garbage like that. Its really refining your life, deciding what is wright and wrong, and I think so many people frankly don't know or care which is which.

Well before I give my opinion I want to share a story about a girl that I was in middle school with.. YES middle school.. many years ago.

We were in eighth grade in gym. I was brand new to the school and really didn't have many friends yet, but the school 'gossip' immediately flew to me to fill me in on everyone's 'secrets'. She got to this girl, I will call her Minnie, who was our age but had a 2 year old daughter.. WHAT?.. yes, a 2 year old daughter, she gave birth to in the 6th grade.. and who was the daddy.. HER UNCLE. and why was she forced to have a child fathered by her uncle (BTW she was raped) because her family considers abortion against God. I am for everyone's right to believe in what they want.. but isn't it kind of obsurd to make a what 12 year old give birth to a child fathered by her uncle because of religious obligations?.. hmmm.

Anyways.. Did I have sex before marriage.. of course. Do I think it's possible to wait, yes.. should I have, sure. But do I think people will, more than likely not.

I think it's a good idea especially with all the diseases lurking around these days. Heck I even had a friend who waited til her wedding day to even kiss her future husband, talk about willpower.

I guess really giving the proper education to all the young people about how to protect themselves from disease and unwanted pregnancy is what we all should focus on.

Originally posted by Drakiir
I would have to say that on the 'sex front' that it has become a meaningless hobby for most people and the worst part is thats becoming a reality. Promoting sex in this light as porn-stars do, I think is degrading and yet in the other hand they ask respect towards woman, now thats a hypocrisy for you.

What? I have plenty of respect for women and yet i happily have had and will continue having multiple partners. You cannot compare someone having sex for the enjoyment of the act to a porn star. One gets paid and does it for money, the other simply is with a person because they want to share themselves with them and enjoy the moment. Meaningless? How is any pleasurable experience meaningless? It depends only on how you view something as to whether it's meaningless and i get a lot out of it.

Originally posted by Drakiir
Personally I respect woman very much and think that treating sex as a lust filled hobby isn't what its all about, there is no true meaning in that. I have asked so many people if they think making love and sex are the same thing, well the news for them is it isn't the same. It isn't just a different word, one is a really amazing experience and the other is an empty 'jackhammer fest' that ends in a 'im tired'.

See now to me that sounds quite disrespectful to women and men also. A "jackhammer fest" is it? Well excuse me but i'm not that kind of guy, i enjoy pleasing my partner and being pleased i return, even if it's a one night stand. Oh and yes i see a massive difference between making love and simply having sex, i've had long term friends who i've had sex with on a regular basis, but it's never making love, it's simply a release for both of us and an enjoyable time. It's not a hobby either.

Originally posted by Drakiir
Just before anyone jumps on this reply as a fantastical fairy-tale I am a Purist and I believe that even lust is impure, drinking and smoking is to me is impure etc. There arent many of me around but I find it has given me pride, belief and self control which I would never of thought I could have.

Good for you i hope you enjoy living your life that way, i support your choice, please support mine. I have pride, far more than most people, belief, well i have belief in science and a caring attitude for others and i also have self control. I've never done drugs, don't smoke, drink very moderately and generally look after myself. I don't even gamble, see i have self control also.

Originally posted by Drakiir
Im cool with different views on the subject and am not saying Im 100% percent pure myself but I am transitioning to that day by day and am devoted to it. So Im just letting people know about it as I have had some people say to me 'you live in fairyland' or 'you watch too much opera' garbage like that. Its really refining your life, deciding what is wright and wrong, and I think so many people frankly don't know or care which is which.

I care deeply what is right and wrong and have very clear views on both, however i don't see casual and enjoyable sex as wrong, i never have and i never will. Homosexual sex, bisexuals, even if someone wants to get into S&M, none of those are my personal interests but if someone enjoys them, they are consensual and leave no lasting harm to their partner then i say all power to them.

Freedom and liberation, whether political, religious or even sexual are very good things.

EDIT

I must have been typing mine when you posted this galatea (love that name btw)

Originally posted by galatea
I think it's a good idea especially with all the diseases lurking around these days. Heck I even had a friend who waited til her wedding day to even kiss her future husband, talk about willpower.

I guess really giving the proper education to all the young people about how to protect themselves from disease and unwanted pregnancy is what we all should focus on.

A latex condom, or a non latex version for those allergic to it should be used by everyone. I actually feel quite passionate about it, the pill will defend against pregnancy (not as well as a condom) but it provides no disease protection. I think kids in school should be lectured on the dangers of the pill, including dangers to their health.

A link on the effectivness of condoms.
www.metrokc.gov...

Similarly, numerous studies among sexually active people have demonstrated that a properly used latex condom provides a high degree of protection against a variety of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV infection. In a two-year study in Europe, among couples in which one partner was infected with HIV and the other uninfected (HIV sero-discordant couples), researchers demonstrated that consistent use of condoms significantly reduced the chance of passing HIV from the infected partner to the one not infected. Among 124 discordant couples who used condoms consistently over the study period, none of the uninfected partners became infected with HIV. In contrast, among 121 discordant couples who did not use condoms consistently, 12 (10%) of the uninfected partners became infected during the study period. Other researchers concluded that the per contact probability of transmission of HIV was reduced 90-95% by the use of condoms.

When used correctly condoms are brilliant as a method of both birth control and disease prevention. Kids should also be lectured on the dangers of oral sex and other sexual acts just so they are fully informed.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by galatea


Its really unfortunate to hear about that and its really ridiculous to know that the parents wanted to go through with it because God says abortions arent right. It sounds like the parents of that girl are quite comfortable knowing how the child got conceived, and using the Bible as an excuse is something Im sure God would not approve of.

Maybe they also forgot to remember that incest isnt right either and because of the circumstance maybe an abortion was the only option. Christians cant pick and chose which rule to go by, they have to go by all of them, no exception. How about they say well since its her uncle than he cant see her anymore and since it was against her will than its her choice to have an abortion if that is what she wants.

At least it would of been better than saying 'let it go ahead because abortion is wrong' and If it were me I would forbid the uncle to go anywhere near family.

Also a small point, all these kids getting pregnant is more because of the modern culture. Boys don't take precautions and often neither do girls. Some of these kids parents are themselves very young and were often pregnant before 20. They are telling their kids the same myths they were told, like "you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex". That's a myth that is more common than you might think.