No Sex Before Marriage

reply to post by jezebel5150

sorry but i think ur naive but who knows you might be right. I believe marriage is important because most people are too stupid and need some sort of regulations so as to save them from harming themselves. people get into this life not knowing the ills of life and not knowing what the want until its too late. premarital sex is one of them nothing good comes out of it. why is sex taken so lightly. but i know most married couples dont have sex anyway so i dont know what one's goal is whether its sex or love. all i know is that if u are gonna live with someone for years in a relationship then u might as well get married. why not? at least when u get divorced u can take half his money. i think marriage is a foundation for a healthy relationship, just living with someone isn't a security blanket. as humans what we crave most is certainty and not fear from a weary future.

Originally posted by AshleyD
However, do those things out of your own free will and don't try to 'rewrite' or reinterpret the Bible in an effort to justify your lifestyle. The Bible says what it says on such things and that is that.

It is the church and its leaders who have done a fine effort in "rewriting" or "reinterpreting" what the Bible says. Take, for example, free will.

There is no such thing as free will or free moral agency. What we have is the ability to make a choice and those choices are made based on our experiences and circumstances. We do not have the ability to make ANY choice free from causes. Because of this, it is impossible to have FREE WILL. However, this great lie will continue being taught that somehow man has the ability to make choices free from influence or causes. It is impossible to do so.

Free will is a myth and should be stricken from being taught in every pulpit. If people want to have sex before marriage, then they make a choice to have sex. That choice is CAUSED. Nobody comes to make that choice freely of their own will. In order to do so, then that choice must be made without anything having caused it. And, to top it off, it is God who CAUSES all things to happen. Does that mean that God makes people sin? No.

Don't know why I went down this line of thought, but I am a Christian and am frankly tired of other Christians stating that God gave us free will. He absolutely gave us no such thing. There is not ONE scripture that proves that man has a will that is free from causes.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
It is the church and its leaders who have done a fine effort in "rewriting" or "reinterpreting" what the Bible says. Take, for example, free will.

And:

Don't know why I went down this line of thought, but I am a Christian and am frankly tired of other Christians stating that God gave us free will. He absolutely gave us no such thing. There is not ONE scripture that proves that man has a will that is free from causes.

Well, I could quote you some passages but being that you just said the Bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted by the church, I'm not sure how much good that would do. How can I cite scripture to you, A Christian, if you believe the scripture is flawed?

Anyways, I stand by what I said. If you want to follow the Bible then do so. If you want to do it your own way, then you can do that as well. But do not try to justify your actions by manipulating what the Bible says about such topics. Pretty simple.

I've also seen many in this thread claim premarital sex being considered a sin was created by the RCC as a method of control. This is so easily debunked because even the Hebrew Tanakh (The Christian Old Testament) warns against premarital and extramarital sex. So, that concept was being enforced long before the RCC came to be. Not to mention the Extra Biblical references that back up this belief being in existence already for the Judeo-Christian faith. So, that's that.

And please don't think I'm preaching against anyone or taking on a holier-than-though stance. I, myself, had premarital sex until later adopting the stance of abstinence. The difference is, I can acknowledge my actions were against Biblical teachings and do not attempt to justify my past by finding loopholes.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
It is the church and its leaders who have done a fine effort in "rewriting" or "reinterpreting" what the Bible says. Take, for example, free will.

And:

Don't know why I went down this line of thought, but I am a Christian and am frankly tired of other Christians stating that God gave us free will. He absolutely gave us no such thing. There is not ONE scripture that proves that man has a will that is free from causes.

Well, I could quote you some passages but being that you just said the Bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted by the church, I'm not sure how much good that would do. How can I cite scripture to you, A Christian, if you believe the scripture is flawed?

Anyways, I stand by what I said. If you want to follow the Bible then do so. If you want to do it your own way, then you can do that as well. But do not try to justify your actions by manipulating what the Bible says about such topics. Pretty simple.

I wasn't coming down on you personally, just tired of the "free will" myth.
I do NOT believe that the original Greek and Herbrew scriptures are flawed. The Bible was put together by man, has been revised and, as such, is open to human error and interpretation.

However, you can't quote me a scripture on free will because none exist. If you believe one exists, show me.

I wasn't manipulating anything. I was simply lamenting the fact that most of Christendom believes in a myth that we, as human beings, posses a power called "free will." I stated that people make a CHOICE to have sex, not based on free will but on circumstances that have been caused. And, EVERYTHING is caused by God. It is God who WILLS in us. We make a CHOICE to VOLUNTARILY go against HIS WILL or not. It is this decsion to go against HIS WILL that results in sin.


[edit on 21-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

The government also offers incentives like extra tax money back to you so you have to register the kids with them. So they know about them.

LMAO. So people who aren't married and have kids, don't have to get the kids registered?

Some of the anti-marriage arguments in this thread are simply outstanding.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
I wasn't coming down on you personally, just tired of the "free will" myth.

I didn't see it that way at all so no worries. We can debate a sensitive topic without taking it personally. I think we will have to disagree on the subject of free will, though. I do believe God knows everything that happens before it happens but our decisions are still ours to make. Just because you know your child is going to get in trouble doesn't mean you are forcing them to commit the troublesome behavior.

I wasn't manipulating anything. I was simply lamenting the fact that most of Christendom believes in a myth that we, as human beings, posses a power called "free will."

1). I wasn't accusing you or anyone in particular on this thread of manipulating scripture. I said in my previous comments my thoughts on this subject were aimed at no member in particular. 2). You keep trying to pull us off in a side debate about free will. Although I understand you may have strong feelings on the subject and feel you are completely correct (and that is your right), God is not forcing us to sleep with anyone. It is our decision.

It is this decsion to go against HIS WILL that results in sin.

Very interesting thoughts and I can see what you are trying to say, however, I would like to put emphasis on the word you used: decision. Yes, it is our decision to go against 'HIS WILL' by ignoring His standard in order to indulge in 'OUR WILL.'

reply to post by AgentStovkowski


Actually it's more the money thing that would be the only reasont ot get married for me. the fact that the government benefit system favours a married couple is in my view very discriminating and quite wrong.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I do believe God knows everything that happens before it happens but our decisions are still ours to make.

But, is that decision/choice free from causes?

2). You keep trying to pull us off in a side debate about free will. Although I understand you may have strong feelings on the subject and feel you are completely correct (and that is your right), God is not forcing us to sleep with anyone. It is our decision.

Yes, true. Might be beneficial to make this its own thread.

Very interesting thoughts and I can see what you are trying to say, however, I would like to put emphasis on the word you used: decision. Yes, it is our decision to go against 'HIS WILL' by ignoring His standard in order to indulge in 'OUR WILL.'

But, this decision/choice to go against HIS WILL is NOT free will. We certainly have a will but it is not free.

Not to nitpick, but Christians like to state that God gave us "free will" but can't show scripture to back it up. If free will exists, please show me a scripture.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
Not to nitpick, but Christians like to state that God gave us "free will" but can't show scripture to back it up. If free will exists, please show me a scripture.

Sure. Just make a new thread with your thoughts on the subject with scripture to support your view. Then U2U me a link to your new thread. I would be interested in seeing your thoughts. Who knows? You might be able to convince me and change my mind on the subject of free will.

I hope you make a new thread. It would be nice to discuss it in a new thread instead of derailing this one. Since you're a Christian it will be nice to know we have the same 'core beliefs' and can discuss the matter knowing we're on the same side, so to speak, of the main issue. I just get exhausted because no matter how to-the-point I reply to a thread, someone inevitably tries so lure me off topic to discuss theology.

My thoughts on this thread: The Bible states premarital sex is wrong.
My thoughts on your potential future thread concerning free will: We'll see.

reply to post by AshleyD



Wait a sec. I'd be happy to open a new thread, but didn't you say:

Well, I could quote you some passages but being that you just said the Bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted by the church, I'm not sure how much good that would do. How can I cite scripture to you, A Christian, if you believe the scripture is flawed?

You are the one who stated we have free will and that scripture backs it up. Again, since you can quote me some passages, please do. I welcome them. You can even U2U me if you want. You're turing this around. I'm asking you to back up what you say. Otherwise, you appear only to be able to regurgitate what you hear from a pulpit on Sunday morning.

Frankly, if Christians are going to publically state that scripture backs up what they say, then they ought to be able to prove it.


[edit on 21-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

Is it really so hard? If we didn't have free will there would no sin. We would be Holy. Guess what? We're not.

Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise their free will and is commanded by God to do so.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Is it really so hard? If we didn't have free will there would no sin. We would be Holy. Guess what? We're not.

Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise their free will and is commanded by God to do so.

Nonsense. NOT having free will is not the cause of sin. Yes, we have a will. And, is it GOD who WILLS in US. However, our WILL is influenced by CAUSES. Our will can never entirely be free from anything that is not caused. And, it is when our WILL (which isn't free) goes against what GOD WILLS in US that we sin.

God is CREATOR of all and CAUSES all.

And not ONE of the scriptures given prove that man has a free will.

reply to post by Freenrgy2


I am turning it around? That is an interesting perspective. Weren't you the one who said the Bible had been rewritten and revised? So what would be the point of quoting scripture that you don't even believe is inerrant? And weren't you the one who pulled us off on this tangent? Then wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to defend your stance?

Many things allude to free will.

Resist sin (therefore it is up to us to flee from temptation), to choose this day who we will serve, that we must come to God as an individual and are sanctified through no other person by association, Etc. This goes all the way back to the fall of man. They chose their own will over God's. Then not to mention accepting Christ. Then not to mention choosing sin or God's way. You're still attempting to pull us off into a debate that theologians have debated for centuries. Predestination vs. Free Will. Just because God knows in advance doesn't mean the choice is not ours.

Sorry, Buddy. Either make a new thread or stick to the topic instead of tangents. Premarital Sex: Right or Wrong according to the Bible. If you don't believe in the concept of free will, then that is your right. I, on the other hand, do.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Freenrgy2

 

I am turning it around? That is an interesting perspective. Weren't you the one who said the Bible had been rewritten and revised? So what would be the point of quoting scripture that you don't even believe is inerrant? And weren't you the one who pulled us off on this tangent? Then wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to defend your stance?

Many things allude to free will.

Resist sin (therefore it is up to us to flee from temptation), to choose this day who we will serve, that we must come to God as an individual and are sanctified through no other person by association, Etc. This goes all the way back to the fall of man. They chose their own will over God's. Then not to mention accepting Christ. Then not to mention choosing sin or God's way. You're still attempting to pull us off into a debate that theologians have debated for centuries. Predestination vs. Free Will. Just because God knows in advance doesn't mean the choice is not ours.

Sorry, Buddy. Either make a new thread or stick to the topic instead of tangents. Premarital Sex: Right or Wrong according to the Bible. If you don't believe in the concept of free will, then that is your right. I, on the other hand, do.

Alluding to free will? So, no scripture specifically talks about our will being free. So, are you saying that man is interpretting scripture to prove it's point? So, is it God's WILL that man refrain from intercourse until marriage? That is the question. And, if we chose to engage in intercourse before marriage, is that choice made outside of any cause?

reply to post by Freenrgy2


Third and Final Time:

Make a thread, U2U me a link, and quit derailing this one. We can discuss the concept of free will complete with scriptural support (I will even cite the specific passages I briefly mentioned above with in-depth commentaries) in your thread to our heart's content. I'm already getting my arguments and Scriptures lined up and ready to go.

This thread: Premarital Sex.

***See my avatar if you are confused by my sudden behavioral shift.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Freenrgy2

Nonsense. NOT having free will is not the cause of sin. Yes, we have a will. And, is it GOD who WILLS in US. However, our WILL is influenced by CAUSES. Our will can never entirely be free from anything that is not caused. And, it is when our WILL (which isn't free) goes against what GOD WILLS in US that we sin.

God is CREATOR of all and CAUSES all.

And not ONE of the scriptures given prove that man has a free will.

That's ridiculous and juvenile. It does not follow that because he is the creator that he causes all.

There is a profound theological difference between the sovereign will of God and the perfect will of God. You are confusing the two in a gross over simplification. The sovereign will is the expression of God’s will that focuses on the fact that God sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. In other words, there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. This understanding of His sovereign will does not imply that God causes everything to happen. However, it does acknowledge that He must at least permit or allow whatever happens to happen. God can always decide to either permit or stop the actions and events of this world. Therefore, as He allows things to happen, He has “willed” them in this sense of the word. Your problem is you just stop there.

God’s permissive or perfect will is about God’s attitude and defines what he likes and wants for us. For example, God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, he doesn’t wish anyone to go to Hell but for all to come to repentance, yet it is also clear that He most surely wills their death and some go to Hell. This expression of God’s will is revealed in the many verses which indicate what God does and does not take pleasure in. For example, in 1 Timothy 2:4 we see that God desires “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and yet we also know that God’s sovereign will is that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;” (John 6:44). Your problem is you are not distinguishing these two aspects.

There is also a third element Gods revealed or perceptive will. That is what he reveals in the Bible often as what we should or should not do. Like premarital sex - fornication. Your logic really just sounds like an excuse a small child would make to go ahead and do what they want and then blame God because you have no choice. The scriptures are clear you do have a choice and are accountable and responsible for your choice.

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion [literally, "be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust)" - see Strong's Greek Dictionary]." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." (Hebrews 13:4)

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." (Ephesians 5:3)

[edit on 5/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

even if God told us to do something are we gonna actually do it comon people nobody here believes in Hell anyway, they think they do but they dont. the think is fornication was punishable then not by God but by society now thats not the case which gives everyone a ticket to do whatever. so who cares about what the bible says, very few actually care.
instead focus on the reasons why premarital sex might be bad or good. it ultimately depends on the next generation not us because we already made up our minds.

Thanks for the dissertation, but you have failed to show how scripture proves that man has a free will. All you have done is shown the position of the church in relation to this matter. If you want something to read (all scriptural based), then go here. This is a 4-part series on the myth of free will. You can spout sovereign will and perfect will all you want, but that does not prove the existence of free will in man.

And if you bothered to read anything else I posted, I'm of the opinion that it would be better to wait until marriage. However, that isn't realistic given today's society and I brought up the emotional maturity aspect. I'm not excusing anything and don't put words in my mouth.

My explanation is juvenille? Why? Because I don't have a doctorate in theology? It can't be as simple as God causing and WILLING in us and our WILLS which are affected and influenced by CAUSES make choices that can either go along with or against God's sovereign will? You sound like the Pharisee's who mocked Jesus. Do you understand why Jesus spoke in parables?

I dare you to look at the information on the link I provided. My guess is that you're too puffed up with your theology that you might be surprised what the Word of God actually says. And no, this isn't some wacked out cult site if you're thinking that.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by Freenrgy2]

reply to post by Freenrgy2


Freenrgy. First of all, that link was a whole lot of nothing. Sorry.

Second, I can somewhat see how the debate of free will vs. predestination could come into play if we were discussing salvation. That would be a fascinating debate.

However, what does free will really have to do with this debate about premarital sex? Nothing. What you're basically trying to imply, whether you are doing it intentionally or not, is that we can't help ourselves if we have premarital sex because it's all predetermined. You are doing the exact thing I mentioned in my first reply to this thread only you are being more crafty. And that is, you are trying to justify the sin by thinking it's not our fault if we have premarital sex because we have no free will.

Then, you asked me previously to cite scriptures backing up the doctrine of free will although in the same comment you said the Bible we have today was manipulated by men. So, I asked a very valid question: Why are you asking me to cite scripture you just admitted to believing is erroneous? Right there I realized how this side debate with you was pointless. Bigwhammy then answered your question citing scripture but what did you say? That all he was doing was citing Scripture put together by the church. Yet, then you link him to a website that... [drumroll]... cites scripture to back up your view.

Now either make a new thread about free will or at the very least explain how free will ties into the subject of premarital sex being right or wrong. It's not as if we're a world full of zombie sex addicts that have no control over what we do with our bodies. I'm not buying that. Sin is a choice and temptation is a battle.

Lastly, the topic of this thread is this: Premarital Sex. Is it right or is it wrong? What does the Bible say about it? Is it a method to control us? The question is not whether or not we have any control over it.

It simply blows my mind how someone tries to skirt Biblical sexual issues any way they can in an effort to free themselves of guilt or personal responsibility. If you want to sleep around then do it. That is your choice. I've been guilty of the same thing. However, let's not manipulate what the Bible says to justify our sin.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD

Lastly, the topic of this thread is this: Premarital Sex. Is it right or is it wrong?

Actually it is not about whether it is right or wrong, this threads intent was to debate whether it was a teaching of god or a religious myth intended to promote marriage sponsored by the state. Thus the creation of Social Security and Marriage licenses and so on. Taxes and tax redemptions, penalties and rewards, etc;