Police fight anti-foreigner violence in S. Africa

Originally posted by jpm1602
It is what it is, and heard what I heard. I'm quite certain audo archives are available on NPR. By all means, don't take my word for it.

I am questioning the 'fact' that they are a authority on anything that happens in Africa. Obviously i wasn't referring to you as it's clear that you do not know a damn thing about this continent.

Listen for yourself by fellow Africans. World have your say. It's all there.

So the small percentage of Africans with phones are phoning in? When has it ever helped to ask those who have phones and watch CNN/BBC/ about how things really stood in their country? Why would i waste my time in talking to people who have already on the whole gotten the better end of the deal?

Typical, kill the messenger. 'If you say so', you know what stellar? You can eat my shorts, go to npr and do your homework.

What should i do my homework about? That the average listener of NPR is about fifty years old , falls in the high income group and is overwhelmingly white? I'm not saying that there isn't anything good about NPR just that you are ignorant about Africa and NPR hasn't yet helped you to arrive at something closer to the truth.

You've had a problem with me from the getgo and that's fine. I can deal with the likes of you in any forum.
Good day sir.

I have had a problem with your willful ignorance of other people's and places from day one and since that's not likely to change until you become better informed i suppose your going to have to 'deal' with me.

Stellar

Originally posted by Gemwolf
I can give you all kinds of numbers, but as we both know these numbers are useless, because
a) most statistics comes from the government, and is everything but accurate.
b) more than 85% (estimated) rapes goes unreported.

So the numbers doesn't prove anything either way round. But if you really wish to go down "this road", consider this:

so nothing then to back up your original bizzarre post, giving a "high 5" to the reports of black on black racist/xenophobic violence as a means of targetting white fears- well done

(About rape statistics in the USA: )

About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice
Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

Are you going to argue that there is a "black against white situation" in the USA as well? Figures like these don’t mean squad, and can't possibly be used for the argument you wish to use them for.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

that is probably the worst example you could have given- as you have not given the race of the rapists- if you do a bit more digging on the US figures, you will see the percentage of black rapists, against white and black women, MASSIVELY outweighing their general population percentage

Dear me.........

[edit on 21-5-2008 by blueorder]

Originally posted by Havoc40k
I agree with Modulus in that South Africa still is one of the more prosperous countries on the continent.

That's abundantly obvious and i have long said to friends and family that we may just be lucky enough to have so much wealth and infrastructure in this country that we might be able to absorb the economic troubles resulting from the long awaited reforms and the abuses/ignorance of a new political regime.

HOWEVER, if we keep up our ignorant attitude, constantly saying that nothing is a "Problem", and waiting until it's almost too late, then we WILL end up as just another african country.

But are 'we' ( are we talking about the less than 10% who are mostly white that have been doing quite well both before and after apartheid?) really that knowledgeable about the real problems and if so why did we ever allow apartheid to create so many more? What moral authority does that 'we' have given their past crimes ( even if the majority were fooled about the horrendous abuses of their elected leaders) against their fellow citizens and what do they really know about Africa other than the fact that they have done quite well here? Do you realise that living standards in Johannesburg's suburbs were comparable to those of California in the late 60's and 70's? Why would you ask such people about the 'problems' of the massive majority who spent their time cleaning those houses and swimming pools?

I believe that the only way that 'we' can continue in the way that they do is in fact to ignore the fact that the vast majority are doing very poorly ( if not starving outright as the millions of aids 'cases' alludes to) and to simply presume whatever the wealthy always does to justify their riches.

The Government's ignorance towards the obvious will be the downfall of this country, IMO.

H

This current government has done almost exactly the same as the previous government and basically sold it's people down the river when it signed the accords that resulted in the 'new' , but strangely largely unchanged, South-Africa. Whites are now wealthier than ever before ( due to fast rising real estate prices) with more financial security, as guaranteed by the supposed fact that everyone is now free to pursue whatever they wish, than they were in 80's and if the South African government is ignoring anything it's the plight of the people they claimed they were representing. As always it's still great to be born white and as long as this ANC stays in powers the wealthy ( and a growing black middle class is slowly being created) will be safe with the poor growing poorer, or starving, as they always did before.

The ANC government may be run by Africans but since the leadership that eventually led the country to freedom( Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo type figures) were by no means 'Africans' in the classical sense ( Educated at mission schools and coming from royal houses or dynasties ) that were never much of chance that Africans would be represented as they might have wished to be. The Africans who truly had positive change in mind didn't survive the apartheid regime and the 'loose ends', like Chris Hani, were assassinated as late 1993. No fundamental change were going to be allowed and the ANC didn't disappoint when they instituted the very same economic 'reforms' that Britain, the USA and most of the rest of the excessively capitalist west had to 'enjoy.

So when you say 'ignorance' rather say 'uncaring' as that's what they are about the affects of 'free market' ( which it isn't) 'reforms' on their supposed constituents. Like most of the rest of the world there are only two political parties in South-Africa and the party of the wealthy have had political dominance here since just about 1652.

So there's another view of just about the only type of South-African your likely going to find on this forum.

Stellar

yep all very well and good stellar, but any targetting of whites in terms of their wealth, land etc purely by virtue of their skin colour, will lead to the zimbabwification of south africa, white exodus and worse standards all round

Sorry to be unpleasantly no pc, but there you have it

Sigh. I shouldn’t respond because:
a) you're drifting from the topic. Racial raping (amongst South Africans) is a long stretch to xenophobia.
b) Rape Statistics
c) I've had the "debate" - oh, I've lost count - how many times. And I know I'm not going to win. Not because I'm right or wrong. But because once a White South African has decided that "the blacks" are out to get him, there's no convincing him otherwise. Going into this will be a complete waste of my time, and will cause unnecessary unpleasantness.


Edit:
But I just can’t help myself…

Originally posted by blueorder
so nothing then to back up your original bizzarre post, giving a "high 5" to the reports of black on black racist/xenophobic violence as a means of targetting white fears- well done.

I’ve tried my best but I don’t know what to say to this. It’s such a long shot it’s actually funny.
Let’s see: I’m not willing to give “rape statistics” because they’re meaningless. And you use this as an “anti-post” to my original post?
Let’s recap. I said “events like this should confirm what I’ve been saying. Violence and crime in South Africa is not black against white…” And I thought I made it clear that I don’t agree with the xenophobia???

Originally posted by blueorder
that is probably the worst example you could have given- as you have not given the race of the rapists- if you do a bit more digging on the US figures, you will see the percentage of black rapists, against white and black women, MASSIVELY outweighing their general population percentage

ANY example is the worst possible example. Again… See Rape Statistics. Rape statistics mean nothing.


[edit on 21-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by Gemwolf
ANY example is the worst possible example. Again… See Rape Statistics. Rape statistics mean nothing.


[edit on 21-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

That link you gave says


"Out of the 111,490 cases involving white victims, 44.5% (49,613) had white offenders and 33.6% (37,461) had black offenders, while the 36,620 black victims had a figure of 100% black offenders, with a 0.0% estimation for any other race based on ten or fewer sample cases"


..............

reply to post by blueorder


You missed the imported parts I was actually referring to.

They are, however, highly politicized, often sex biased, and have been accused of being unreliable because they are so diverse and are used by different groups for different reasons. This is partly because of inconsistent definitions of rape in both legislative and academic studies. However, it is also because of over reporting, under reporting and false reporting of the crime.
...
Rape, alone among other major crimes, suffers from severe definitional contradictions that create controversial statistical disparities.

These factors lead to accusations that all rape statistics are unreliable.

Still, this is so far off topic that a Moderator is going to warn us at any moment. So let's just agree to disagree and get back to the topic.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
[Still, this is so far off topic that a Moderator is going to warn us at any moment. So let's just agree to disagree and get back to the topic.

the extent of the lack of white on black rape, in comparison with the reverse, is in "black and white" so to speak- there is nothing to suggest unreported rapes would have a miraculous reversal to such stats

An update on the situation:

Immigrants have begun to flee South Africa.

Exodus after South Africa attacks

Will the violence re-ignite now that it has been shown to work? I think a lot of people will be watching this one quite closely albeit not necessarily for benevolent reasons.

I think its a shame that this violence has indeed 'worked'. This will set a very dangerous precedent for issues that this country has to face in the future...

Originally posted by The_Modulus
I think its a shame that this violence has indeed 'worked'. This will set a very dangerous precedent for issues that this country has to face in the future...

I agree completely. No matter what anyone says, the violence did achieve the aims of the people involved. Namely, to force out the immigrants.

I heard that the violence had spread to other S.A towns and that at least one person had been shot and killed by S.A soldiers.

I can't help but wonder what the next 10 years offer for S.A.

[edit on 24/5/08 by Rapacity]

reply to post by Rapacity


Violence spreads to Cape Town

It seems that the violence has spread out from Johannesburg.

The BBC's Mohammed Allie in Cape Town says Somali shops were looted and one Somali killed and six others injured.

The violence has indeed reached Cape Town.

Somalians have been a target and I read that some Chinese shop-owners were threatened.

www.iol.co.za...

Ha! The wonders of "plurality", and "diversity" have finally reached the Dark Continent! How do you like them potatoes?

Blame Whitey: Shadowy "right-wing, former Apartheid" groups 'third hand' behind 'xenophobic violence', according to South African security chief

CAPE TOWN (Reuters) - South Africa's security chief on Friday accused rightwingers linked to the former apartheid government of fanning xenophobic violence that has spread to Cape Town, the second largest city and tourist centre.

(*Cut*)

But Manala Manzini, head of the National Intelligence Agency, told Reuters people linked to former apartheid security forces were stoking the violence.

(*Cut*)

"We have information to the effect that elements that were involved in the pre-1994 election violence are in fact the same elements that have re-started contacts with people that they used in the past."

I suppose the security chief is in the same bag of kooks with Mugabe that believe Whitey is just "waiting in the wings" to return Africa to "early 20th Century colonial rule".

Hey, maybe "more white respect for black South Africans" will solve the problem!

And for those of us "comfortable" in the 'West', when the inevitable world-wide recession occurs, don't expect surprise when the self-same acts occur through-out Europe and North America.

I suppose the South African government still supports mass-migration?