It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


While the World Focuses on Bush, Putin Actually Becomes a Tyrant

page: 4
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in


posted on May, 20 2008 @ 04:06 PM

Originally posted by gottago

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Tres amusing...

Nothing like watching people falling all over themselves apologizing for a dictator... Especially when they are mired in democratic self loathing...

A bit like the Decider, when he had his man-crush and looked into Putin's soul and saw what he wanted to be, non?

Ah, ils oublient tellement vite....

Quelques choses sont mieux oubliées

You know, articles just like this were written about FDR, calling him a dictator after he won his third term, in the midst of WWII, so let's have some perspective.

Really, that's quite a stretch; Putin as the new FDR? Not bloody likely. And, to put the record straight, it was Roosevelt's fourth term. FDR

Also, there was never any doubt about FDR being "fairly" elected.

And as for "democratic self-loathing": Our system has become increasingly dysfunctional with the rise of corporatism and the MIC, and our elected officials are ever-more beholden to these powerful interests, ever-more reliant on their money, and ever-less responsive to their constituents. They are insulated with the rise of entrenched incumbency.

Isn't that exactly what this whole election business is about? At least from what I hear, people are ready for some accountability on the part of their elected officials and are fed up with special interests, lobbyists and pork barrel legislation. Do you think the election process in Russia is as open and transparent as it is here? Do you think that Putin has no vested interests, no one he is beholden to? If you believe that then you are being naive. Do you seriously think that Putin really cares what the average Russian citizen thinks?

The system upon which this republic is founded is a cause for great pride, but its present state is one for equally great concern.

That is something that I think we can all agree on. However, I would add that there is also great hope that things will get better with the shift in political feeling in this country as well as new leadership, both in the White House and in Congress. I don't think the American public (read voters) will any longer tolerate the type of mis-management and idiocy which has made us the butt of the worlds jokes for the last 8 years and more.

posted on May, 20 2008 @ 04:16 PM
reply to post by TheComte

Hey TheComte I think your very misled if you think Russias new found wealth is only because of its oil and gas. The economy as a whole has been growing steadily for a decade and is very sound. Check out where your Boeing components come from, have a look at the increasing number of car manufacturers locating in and around St Petersburg.

posted on May, 20 2008 @ 04:40 PM
reply to post by Bunch

You argue on the whole a more balanced position here and I'm well aware of that; what I find exasperating is this idea that Russia in the few years after the complete collapse of the Soviet Union somehow was some sort of magical, edenic democracy that Putin has undermined. It was not.

There was no democratic heyday in Russia these past years and Putin cannot destroy something yet to be built. Now if you want to argue that he is retarding its progress then you are on more solid ground, but democracy will not advance without reigning in the host of problems that were unleashed with the SU's collapse and which are only recently being brought under control.

This is a monumental task and I'll readily agree that democracy-building is not Putin's first priority, and neither is it by his will alone that we will see advances in Russia. It requires the growth of supporting mentalities and institutions, and is the work of the entire society. It certainly can be argued that the stability and economic growth he has brought to Russia will eventually strengthen democracy, because you need these fundamentals to see it develop, but nothing is guaranteed.

Now, looking back at the original article, it is simplistic in the extreme and purposely blind to reality and history. It takes a cheap shot for a cheap point, hoping we'll all easily forget that Russia just a few years ago was the USSR. Staggering, really. How can one simply remove Russia from what it is, and judge it as if it were Sweden or Canada, disregarding entirely it has little to none of the necessary infrastructure or culture necessary for democracy?

posted on May, 20 2008 @ 04:46 PM
reply to post by ufoorbhunter

I'm not at all surprised that there is foreign and domestic investment going on in Russia at the moment. A new, wealthy class of citizen has been created. They will both consume luxury goods and also reinvest a portion of their wealth.
I'm not sure how the fact that Boeing is contracting out some of its parts to a Russian company, proves that Russia's new found wealth does not come from it's mineral resources.

posted on May, 20 2008 @ 10:26 PM
reply to post by gottago

I think I'm coming to grasp you arguement and to some degree you are right.

The "why" I expect Russia to have a sense of how to conduct themselves in a democracy I can explain it to you in a simple and personal way. That is that is already been tried before, democracies that spur in this modern era have at least some examples to follow... meaning follow the good... disregard the bad.

A simple analogy... maybe too simple... I get this job and everyone tells me that people always quit.... first I find out why people quiit.... I come to find out that is because they don't like the job, they don't like the rules, the responsibility, etc... If I really like the job and I want to keep it I'm not going to make the same mistakes that those before me made, thus making the work environment better for my coworkers and getting the job done.

IMO that's Russias democracy, they need a leader... Not someone that would cut corners to achieve some short term goals that at the end would end up hurting your bottom line.... But hey! What's Russias bottom line? Its still up to be determined I guess.

As far as you saying that who would expect Russia to have a stellar democracy? I for one would like that to be the case!! I am so tired of people looking at the U.S. and talking about the how and why this democracy is so corrupt that I would challenge any country that thinks they can do it better on this system of government to step up and give it a shot.

posted on May, 21 2008 @ 05:14 AM
reply to post by Bunch

In essence then we're closer than we realized on the outset. Your point that the outside examples should influence Russia I think is actually happening. At least Putin followed the letter of the law in stepping down and becoming PM, even if the shift was by installing a sockpuppet in the position he vacated. It's a sham, agreed, but he did follow the rules, and that is certainly due to his wish to at least follow the forms of a democratic succession, to avoid the heat at home and internationally, and that alone is a sort of progress, however weak. He also could have just declared himself leader for life, much easier.

Of course we all hope to see real democracy take root and grow in Russia, but I think also that the country is too strategically important to see it occur quickly. Russia compares itself to the US and China, it's a heavyweight, and along with that status comes a special level of government control, what we call "the national security state." It's fundamentally anti-democratic, and we ourselves have a spotty record of keeping it in check, so for Russia it will be an even harder job to build firewalls around that.

And its history and the autocratic structures at all levels will make it very difficult for the central government to outpace reforms at the grass roots, which is where the pressures for greater democracy will come from, if they come at all. What will change Russia is when all the little commissars lose their fiefdoms and you see autocracy wane at the local level.

top topics
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in