Originally posted by ninecrimes

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

Yes, because "might makes right" is such a credible line of reasoning.

Wait a sec, isn't it one of those newfangled logical fallacy thingies...?

hmm. Some yeehaw uses a stack of paper that some silly people have put magical worth into as target practice and OH NOES!!

Some jagoffs use beautiful gorillas as target practice or hey yea i forgot the actual WAR going on in Iraq and many other country's. People dying... children starving..

oh boo hoo for the book. yeap.

Originally posted by dangerouslogic

Originally posted by ninecrimes

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

Yes, because "might makes right" is such a credible line of reasoning.

Wait a sec, isn't it one of those newfangled logical fallacy thingies...?

I was returning your sarcasm. My apologies for falling into your troll trap.

It's a book, people. Pick your battles, this is one PETTY point to be fighting for. Religion is NOT worth waging for- the way I figure, if you were so sure your religion was supreme, you wouldn't care what anyone else thought of it.

Me? I believe in science. That was a book. Some paper with words on it, just like 1,000,000,000,000,000 others JUST like it. A soldier shot the book. People are fighting over it?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Originally posted by Retikx
hmm. Some yeehaw uses a stack of paper that some silly people have put magical worth into as target practice and OH NOES!!

Some jagoffs use beautiful gorillas as target practice or hey yea i forgot the actual WAR going on in Iraq and many other country's. People dying... children starving..

oh boo hoo for the book. yeap.

I would tend to agree with you that the actual war and the people dying because of it are FAR more important of issues than this one incident. However, that also begs the question as to how many of the people dying over there have died and will die precisely because of the sentiment expressed by this action? I find it hard to believe that this soldier, in a war zone, can engage in such a deliberate provocation and expression of disdain towards an entire culture, but is yet a member of the anti-war (at least this one if not others) movement and will treat all the Iraqi's he comes across with the respect and dignity that every human deserves. If peace and human equality were his real concerns, would he really be over there shooting at Qurans in the first place?

(And yes I recognize that many soldiers are over there against their will. However, I doubt those against the war are spending their time in this way...)

EDIT: typo

[edit on 21-7-2009 by dangerouslogic]

Originally posted by ninecrimes

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

On the contrary, i was adding a very salient point to the debate. This soldier was not in America and so his actions can't be excused by any aspect of the American constitution, heavy artillery or not.

Many of you are taking the viewpoint that this isn't much of a big deal as you, and evidently the soldier, do not share in the view of the Qu'ran as an important cultural signifier.

Whilst this is fine and dandy, would you be so forgiving if the shoe was on the other foot.

What if, for example, i came to America and started taking potshots at a US flag. I would buy the flag myself, so i could use the 'its my property' excuse as I try and put a bullet through each of the 50 stars. As a non-American this flag means nothing to me, and so it is ok to shoot it. This is the logic that you people are using.

Obviously, i would not do this as it would cause great offence to you, and i have more respect than that. And, ultimately, that is what this whole issue boils down to. Respect.

We are constantly told that this is not a religious war, not a war on Islam. What happened to winning the battle of hearts and minds? Afghans that hear about this will not view America/Britain as the heroic liberation force. They will view them as threats to their way of life.

This incident will do more for Taliban recruitment, not less. Ultimately, ignorant, meat-headed, culturally insensitive acts like this will prolong the war, meaning more deaths on our side.

Originally posted by ninecrimes

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

Yes, because "might makes right" is such a credible line of reasoning.

Wait a sec, isn't it one of those newfangled logical fallacy thingies...?

I was returning your sarcasm. My apologies for falling into your troll trap.

It's a book, people. Pick your battles, this is one PETTY point to be fighting for. Religion is NOT worth waging for- the way I figure, if you were so sure your religion was supreme, you wouldn't care what anyone else thought of it.

Actually that was my first post in this thread, so I'm a little confused as to how I magically set a "troll trap" before I was even aware of the topic....

And to your second point, I believe I addressed that point in either that post or my next one.

EDIT: quotations acting funny...

[edit on 21-7-2009 by dangerouslogic]

[edit on 21-7-2009 by dangerouslogic]

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by ninecrimes

Originally posted by CRB86

Originally posted by vor78
While I disagree with his actions, he has freedom of speech and expression as protected by the First Amendment.

I know this may come as a shock to you, but your constitution doesn't apply outside America. I will leave you to try and get your head around that earth-shattering revelation.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by CRB86]

Not when you're an American with an M-16 and kevlar.

Come on man, if you're going to be so sarcastic whilst contributing nothing to the discussion at hand- at least come up with something a bit more credible.

On the contrary, i was adding a very salient point to the debate. This soldier was not in America and so his actions can't be excused by any aspect of the American constitution, heavy artillery or not.

Many of you are taking the viewpoint that this isn't much of a big deal as you, and evidently the soldier, do not share in the view of the Qu'ran as an important cultural signifier.

Whilst this is fine and dandy, would you be so forgiving if the shoe was on the other foot.

What if, for example, i came to America and started taking potshots at a US flag. I would buy the flag myself, so i could use the 'its my property' excuse as I try and put a bullet through each of the 50 stars. As a non-American this flag means nothing to me, and so it is ok to shoot it. This is the logic that you people are using.

Obviously, i would not do this as it would cause great offence to you, and i have more respect than that. And, ultimately, that is what this whole issue boils down to. Respect.

We are constantly told that this is not a religious war, not a war on Islam. What happened to winning the battle of hearts and minds? Afghans that hear about this will not view America/Britain as the heroic liberation force. They will view them as threats to their way of life.

This incident will do more for Taliban recruitment, not less. Ultimately, ignorant, meat-headed, culturally insensitive acts like this will prolong the war, meaning more deaths on our side.

There is nothing you could do to offend me, unless you hurt someone physically. You could shoot A COPY OF THE American flag, shoot A COPY OF THE Star Wars trilogy, shoot a COPY OF A picture of my mother- I wouldn't be hostile and I wouldn't condemn, I would try to understand (and possibly even attempt to educate). In fact, so long as you do so peacefully and in an attempt to convey your feelings- I would shake your hand and understand that you are expressing your feelings (IN A PEACEFUL WAY).

Shoot any inanimate object you want. Shoot the Declaration of Independance if you want... it's just an expression of opinion (again, if no one is hurt). At the end of the day, I'll have my beliefs and you'll have your beliefs. And if everyone thought like I did, everyone would go home to their families to tell them about the "crazy guy" they met, instead of wanting to kill the said crazy guy for having his own feelings. Wow- what a world that would be, huh?

If you are saying that shooting a book is offensive, than I say you are more offensive (and in fact, a THREAT) than anyone shooting any damned inanimate object ever will be!

Originally posted by proteus33
its a flippin book get over it already. its not like its the last copy. if that soldier was trying to make a point by doing this shouldn't his right to express himself be protected under first amendment. i do understand we are over there illegally to limit oil production to keep profits high for oil companies. and no i am not a muslim hater. but its a book last year they wanted to kill a teacher because she picked up a klids backpack that contained supposedly a quran. in my opinion to many people bend over backwards trying to appease muslims. true soldier had poor taste in targets but at least he wasn't using iraqi civilians

You should seriously prioritize educating yourself.

I bet that although they chastized the soldier publicly he is a hero with a whole new handle and call sign back behind closed doors at that military instillation/base whatever/ what this soldier has done in not very extream at all for a soldier. I bet the general went easy on the guy afterwards and told him to keep up the good work.

THese soldiers are supposed to demonize their enemies. they have always done this, it's par of their society and community. It's life or death out there. real people want to kill these soldiers. He is just conditioning himself to be a better soldier. now as far as being ethnicaly conscious. they are soldiers, not part of the peace corp, not a police force, not a bunch of camp councilors their only job is to KILL PEOPLE & BREAK THINGS and to secure locations usually by taking them by force They do not have to be nor should be walking on egg shells to respect a group of people they have been tasked with attacking. WHen everybody other than americans is a potential enemy one does not assume. they train as hard as they can usually in methods that put down or demonize their opposition.

Peeps should have more respect for each others cultures. Tis no suprie we get keep going to war with ideas lke tese flying around

kx

Like the age old saying goes: "all is fair in love and war."

Get over it. It's just a book. Hell I could care less if Muslims shoot the bible, if satanists pee on it, if an atheist burns it.

It's not my problem. Yes I consider the Bible holy, but I know there are people who deface it all the time, and it does not bother me in the least because I could care less what they believe.

Why should Muslims make any bigger of a deal about their book getting defaced?

The human race needs to grow up already.

[edit on 7/21/2009 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by ninecrimes
There is nothing you could do to offend me, unless you hurt someone physically. You could shoot A COPY OF THE American flag, shoot A COPY OF THE Star Wars trilogy, shoot a COPY OF A picture of my mother- I wouldn't be hostile and I wouldn't condemn, I would try to understand (and possibly even attempt to educate). In fact, so long as you do so peacefully and in an attempt to convey your feelings- I would shake your hand and understand that you are expressing your feelings (IN A PEACEFUL WAY).

Shoot any inanimate object you want. Shoot the Declaration of Independance if you want... it's just an expression of opinion (again, if no one is hurt). At the end of the day, I'll have my beliefs and you'll have your beliefs. And if everyone thought like I did, everyone would go home to their families to tell them about the "crazy guy" they met, instead of wanting to kill the said crazy guy for having his own feelings. Wow- what a world that would be, huh?

If you are saying that shooting a book is offensive, than I say you are more offensive (and in fact, a THREAT) than anyone shooting any damned inanimate object ever will be!

Well it seems we both share a belief in Roland Barthes' concept of the free play of signs and signifiers, and for that i applaud you. These things are just 'stuff' to me and you, indicative of an idea of concept (God or nationhood) but not an actual embodiment of such, and certainly not worth getting worked up over. I used the US flag as an emotive device to elicit a response, and to your absolute credit you outlined a mature and reasoned response.

Ninecrimes, you seem a good person from that post, rational and thoughtful. Unfortunately, not everyone shares these traits with you. I am certain that if they did, the world would be a better place.

In muslim countries occupied by soldiers from my country aswell as yours, the Quran takes on an extra significance. I still think the actions of this soldier were wholly insensitive, not because of any meaning i ascribe to the Quran, but because like it or not, there's a whole nation of Afghans who feel oppressed enough as it is, and this will not do anything to allieviate that.

Whilst we can sit here on the internet and mock them for their unenlightened belief in a 'magic book' and their superstitious nature, they will take the actions of this soldier as a personal affront.

Basically, it is a Taliban public relations dream. Regardless of our views on the subject, these people revere the Quran, and to 'desecrate' it in such a way is only going to serve the purpose of turning ordinary Afghanis against the coalition forces. It is naive to think otherwise.

For once, we have to think beyond what we find personally offensive, about the bigger picture. These people don't need any more persuading that our troops are the evil enemy.

I hope you understand where i'm coming from. To me and you, this act is nothing. To them, it is HIGHLY symbolic of a repressive, anti-islamic crusade.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Originally posted by CRB86
For once, we have to think beyond what we find personally offensive, about the bigger picture. These people don't need any more persuading that our troops are the evil enemy.

I hope you understand where i'm coming from. To me and you, this act is nothing. To them, it is HIGHLY symbolic of a repressive, anti-islamic crusade.

Keep fighting the good fight.

You are correct- I hadn't thought about "their feelings". However, though I understand and appreciate your empathy, I really do not care about their cult or their cultist idols (their voodoo holy books). If they were people I could reason with, they would think for themselves and realize that a book isn't worth crying and fighting over.

I should also say I am against the invasion of any nation by any other nation, unless the invading nation is retaliating to a prior (un-warranted) invasion of the invader (yes, that does make sense haha). I understand they are pissed because we are invading their country without actual reason, and I have such a hard time even trying to imagine how they feel about that.

My point is that this incident is stupid and people shouldn't care about this soldier. He's an idiot (hence why he's shooting a book he could be reading), I'm not saying he isn't... but just like the class clown in school, if you just ignore the idiots, they do wind up going away (usually getting themselves seriously injured or killed in the long run). If people thought like I did, they would be spending their time bettering themselves (maybe reading books instead of shooting them) instead of judging people and condemning ANYONE as part of some sort of "undesirable" portion of society.

It's just a petty situation- no one should care about it, unless you plan on speaking directly to the guy who did it. By emitting negative energy over this, you are doing more damage than his initial actions did. But that's not to say I agree with the man's message (though I condemn anyone trying to oppress him).

[edit on 21-7-2009 by ninecrimes]

Originally posted by RabbitChaser
I was all ready to write a long rant, but all of a sudden I feel a bowel movement approaching... omg!! No toilet paper!! Well... guess I'll use the next best thing... I always knew there was a good reason to keep this bible next to the toilet...

Religions... the cause of all problems... all 'believers' should be lined up and shot so they can finally determine if they are right or not. Then the rest of us can finally live in peace.

[edit on 5/19/2008 by RabbitChaser]

Religion is not the cause of any problems, it is mankind using it as an excuse to commit attrocities. Pol Pot, and Stalin etc., were athiests.

Imo we have to respect other peoples sensitivities, especially in a volatile situation. If the Koran was used as target practice in front of Muslims it was obviously intended to provoke, if not it shows a lack of maturity.
I don't see why we have to respect a religion but imo we should respect the person. Saying that I do think Muslims have to lighten up, don't know about the USA but here in the UK reigion has always been fair game, that's why movies such as The Life of Brian are so sucessful.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I bet that although they chastized the soldier publicly he is a hero with a whole new handle and call sign back behind closed doors at that military instillation/base whatever/ what this soldier has done in not very extream at all for a soldier. I bet the general went easy on the guy afterwards and told him to keep up the good work.

THese soldiers are supposed to demonize their enemies. they have always done this, it's par of their society and community. It's life or death out there. real people want to kill these soldiers. He is just conditioning himself to be a better soldier. now as far as being ethnicaly conscious. they are soldiers, not part of the peace corp, not a police force, not a bunch of camp councilors their only job is to KILL PEOPLE & BREAK THINGS and to secure locations usually by taking them by force They do not have to be nor should be walking on egg shells to respect a group of people they have been tasked with attacking. WHen everybody other than americans is a potential enemy one does not assume. they train as hard as they can usually in methods that put down or demonize their opposition.

The first paragraph is an excellent point and is likely what happened.

However, your reasoning in the second falls perilously short. That type of rationale is exactly how the Nazi party was able to rally the German people to "cleanse" the world of Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies, etc. There is no justification nor excuse for demonizing one's enemy, if for no other reason than it simply denies reality. If a cause is truly worth fighting and dying for, then the logical arguments for that conflict should suffice. If support for a cause requires the demonization of one's enemy, or perceived enemy, then that cause can be no more just than Hitler's "Final Solution".

I have to disagree.

that sort of indoctrination I talked about is exactly what soldiers go through in boot camp. it's not a nazi thing. it's a way to de humanize the target to make it easier to kill. during WW2 the military had a problem a lot of soldiers wouldn't actually shoot another person when he had them in their sites. it was too hard to kill another human being. to stop this from happening they started training the soldiers to shoot human shapes that weren't human somehow. then they would get the soldiers to shout kill kill kill over and over a day. sometimes up to a thousand times. the process is a way to condition the soldier to kill without discrimination or guilt.

Do agree that the human race should solve it's problems by resorting to this. no. do I think it's a part of the science of killing other human yes. so in one sense the soldier is doing and carrying out training and conditioning in the exact same way they were told to. the soldier probably got a pat on the back behind closed doors. but it is by no means a nazi thing, although it is one road that sort of conditioning can lead down. often times it does seem to get precariously close to that too.