Originally posted by Kranil

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Why is this guy not in prison already?
It does not matter what he THINKS. Regardless of his opinion, he needs to do his duty especially since he enlisted and was not drafted. It's not his role to decide what is legal and not illegal.

Fort Leavenworth should be getting a cell ready for this loser.

Without a doubt, this was the most mindless post I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

"Listen up people, what you think doesn't matter. Just do what you're told."

Try thinking about that, seriously.

Guess what? That's to bad. Judging by your response, you have never been in the military. You said it exactly like it is, "Just do what you're told." That is how the military works and once people start questioning every order then the military is useless. Thanks for showing your ignorance though.

Well, if this war is illegal, then it is a crime right? The soldier signed up to be part of the crime. As the old saying goes, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. He shouldn't have signed up in the first place. When you join the military, that is the risk you take. I am not calling him a coward, but people know what they are getting themselves into when they sign up. It is all or none, not at your convenience.

This story has been around for a while. This kid's been trying to get the word out for some time about his situation and the reasons behind his decisions.

Originally posted by palehorse23
Well, if this war is illegal, then it is a crime right? The soldier signed up to be part of the crime. As the old saying goes, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. He shouldn't have signed up in the first place. When you join the military, that is the risk you take. I am not calling him a coward, but people know what they are getting themselves into when they sign up. It is all or none, not at your convenience.

You are sworn to protect the People of the United States, your allies, and the Constitution when you join the military. When America signed the UN Charter it became part of our Constitution, and when G. W. Bush ordered war in Iraq, when he circumvented the security council and broke the UN Charter in staging a unilateral war of aggression, he created a legal precedent for all soldiers to refuse service. We are actually required to by law. There is a difference when you are going to war in DEFENSE of your country as stated by the UN Charter(which the US pretty much wrote), and when you invade a country "pre-emptively"...To start a war to prevent a war you think might happen later is just the stupidest form of illogical policy, which is IN FACT criminal. Not only defined by the UN Charter, but by our own federal laws. The Bush administration has also admitted to torturing detainees under custody, shipping them to secret prisons in Eastern Europe, detaining Afghan citizens, American citizens, Saudi Citizens, and journalists in Guantanamo Bay Cuba, and has defined them as "Enemy Combatants" without actually investigating their involvements, and without providing them legal council, or even the right to look at any evidence held against them. But they didn't stop there. The USA Patriot Act was passed immediately after 9/11 and served as the legal grounds by which we would engage in such War Crimes.

You have the right, as a soldier and patriot and citizen to say NO, to the government and stand up for your rights, and those hazy, now nearly forgotten ideals generations of people before us fought and died for. The UN was born out of World War 2 because 2 world wars in a single lifetime was just too much for the world to bear. Why should we work our way to World War 3? Why did we fight and die, and work so damned hard to just toss all of it out the window just because America just "inherently has the right" to do what ever it will anywhere in the world. And anyone who opposes is what? Destroyed or assimilated. Swallowed by American corporate imperialism. And not everybody wants in on it. Some people want to be allowed to exist sovereignly to trade with America and yet remain who they are. We want the same, and demonize those who seek to even the playing field. The reason a good portion of the world hates America, is because starting in the 1900's America, with the blessing of the U.N. at times, engaged in many wars of aggression against poor, poorly armed populations around the world, in nearly every continent on Earth. Is that supposed to make us attractive to the rest of the world?

Questions. Always more questions.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by projectvxn]

Just ask Dick Cheney and George Bush if they are grateful they were able to avoid active service. I know I would be ...especially if my country was engaged in imperialistic adventures. George and Dick were too smart to fall for all the patriotic jingoism of the times.

If the MIC wants to fight then the MIC needs to lead the charge!

It is unconscionable to ask men and women of this country to take on 3rd and 4th and 5th tours. According to many generals the army and marines have been pretty much destroyed by this war and the demands of this administration.

Soldiers forget congress and the politicians just don't go. Most of the citizens understand. The war is illegal don't go, don't fight, don't die for these low life chickenhawks.

I want to see the CEO's of Haliburton, KBR, Exxon, et al in Humvees in Bagdad rolling over the IED's. Wonder how long the war would last then???

Originally posted by hinky
Iraq is a legal war. Just because someone doesn't like it doesn't make it illegal.

By who's standards? A few American lawyers and policy makers?

Hell, even Blairs legal team never reached a conclusion on it - know why? Because UN Resolution 1441 has NO RECOURSE to the use of force in it. It simply refers to "further measures and the possibility of military action".

The invasion of Iraq was NOT mandated by the UN security Council. It was undertaken by UN security council members who had the power to veto any attempt to stop and sanction it. Its an anomaly - a loophole - and it sucks. There has been NO declaration of war whatsoever.

Think about that. Troops deployed, military action undertaken and a sovereign government overthrown with no declaration of war, without a UN mandate, and based on assumptions made from dubious and - now proven to be - faulty intelligence.

The only people who think this "action" was legal are the ones who started Everyone else has had to sit back and watch.

I cant see anyone refusing to fight an illegal war as a bad person. He knows he will face worse charges here. I totally agree with him and think he is brave for doing what he is doing. We need many many more just like him to end this lie.

[edit on 17-5-2008 by Memysabu]

I do not know about now but when I was was in the military
every one regardless of branch of service or rank has the
right and obligation to refuse an illegal order.

It does not matter if the order came from the President of the
United State or the Officers and Sergent's in the chain of command.

This was per the Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ.

Combat tours are supposed to be for one year only for that
Theater of Operation or TO.

To have what the government doing to our troops, I would have
done the same thing!

Wing-Nut

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Sir, lets look at your warped theory from... shall I say... a more educated and humanistic point of view ---- Kay?

He won't be missed. His kind is useless in a combat zone, anyway.

He won't be missed... because the US government never gave a damn about him in the combat zone. His kind is usefull outside the combat zone because he has witnessed the (Con-Snow & Lube) jobs first hand, and now understands the lying war mongers goal is ruling the world at the cost of young American lives, anyway.

He'll probably like prison much more than fulfilling his miltary obligation.

He'll probably like coming home to his family and disclosing the "real truth" to the moronic American puppets who believe any load of crock Bush unloads on them much more than fullfilling his endless, murderous millitary obligation.

He'll make a lot of sweet friends there.

He'll make alot of sweet friends who see the war as a fake "Super Power" shower of Love... because he has the patriotic balls to call is own country out! A feat of bravery, that should have been done by millions ages ago.

His dishonorable discharge and criminal record will look good on his resume, too.

His dishonorable discharge and criminal record won't look good on his resume... Please! who really cares at this point... what job can the millitary get you these days anyway?? They can barely give you an asprin without a headache of red tape!!

But as people wake up and smell Bushes stenchy war... Americans will put these so called tattle tails on a pedestal of honor even though there will be millions under educated, ultra patriotic, flag waving, Gung Ho Gi Joes and millitary goons that feel he is a traitor --- even some posting total bits of lunacy worthy of my response.

Topic Only, Please

Let's cease and desist from baiting and personal commentary.

If you can't express your opinions without insulting other members, then don't post them.

UNfortunately for this sergeant, he cannot just resign. A commissioned officer can resign. But there are various limits to that as well. I don't believe this soldier to be a coward. He did serve in Afghanistan didn't he? He didn't run away from that. However I cannot see where this war is illegal. As far as I can tell it is a war that was approved by congress. It could have been stopped by congress but those members chose not to. Iraq continued to violate the UN resolutions against it. Iraq also violated the terms of the cease fire many times following the end of Desert Storm. That being said, the war is not illegal. It is actually a continuation of Desert Storm. This soldier may very well believe this war is illegal. I salute him in that he is willing to face whatever punishment is coming to him for his refusal to serve in Iraq. He believes and so he is acting on his beliefs.

As long as we have a voluntary millitary force, we should allow voluntary abandonment of said service... either after your initial service contract is expired without any penalty or repercusions, or during your service contract but with the full force of desertion penalties and the repercusions of dishonorable discharge. I really don't see "soldiers" (and I use that word VERY loosely, by definition a soldier carries out his orders instantaneously without questioning them or doubting them.) like this guy or Watada as being of any use to our millitary at all, so let them walk. However, that said, when they walk they should be forced, under penalty of imprisonment, to repay every dollar spent on them for training, housing, feeding, and any incidental expenses they recieved from the taxpayers. They should also be stripped of any and all post service benfits, claims against the millitary, and any other special rights or privaledges held by honorably discharged former servicemen. We can't just let them walk off after spending thousands of dollars preparing them for duty without some repayment.

As far as this particular soldier is concerned, I think he is not a hero for refusing to fight what he believes is an illegal war. Fact is, this is not an illegal war. The catch of the whole thing is terminology. We aren't at war with Iraq. We are involved in a 'Global War on Terror' not being a specific nation, War cannot be declared, yet military actions can take place. We went into Iraq in a preemptive attack to stop production or use of WMD's as believed from intelligence (the conspiracy over intentionally faked evidence aside) which the president has the authority to do, which Congress agreed to and funded. Post Saddam, we remain as a security force assisting in rebuilding and stabilization, thus, not at a war in which a declaration is needed.

To follow up as a previous post mentioned, the various disregard of UN resolutions before the invasion of Iraq in 2003, even before Bush took office in 2001, was enough to validated the 2003 invasion.

It is already established that the war is legal. To continue to beat the dead horse of legality is purely for show. I would be willing to bet that if you followed the story of this soldier back you would find at some point a encouraging politician connected to it, either directly or indirectly.

Its as simple as this, if a person enlisted in the military after 9/11, and you read the contract, you know that you basically sign your life away, knowing that you may be stuck there until the government sees fit. If you didn't read it or didn't think that you would really get stuck, sorry. I enlisted before 9/11 and was part of OIF. That I was allowed to leave at the end of my enlistment is simply a blessing.

That being said, there are still a lot of things related to 'war' that are messed up and could be addressed without dereliction of duty or desertion: the neglect and abuse by halliburton, overlooked Iraqi government corruption, etc.

Fight the good fight, don't politicize it.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by Wolf321]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The military could also reassign him to other duty. He has served in other places and is not saying he does not want to be in the army.

As logical as this seems, the military doesn't operate like that. It would undermine the whole principle of order because this policy would have to apply to everyone, then no one would want to be in a hostile environment.

If the press really reported what is going on in this war, many more Americans would be against it.

Two things about this. First, the basic civilian can't stomach the reality of war. Do you think if the population on whole saw the reality of WW2, they would have been cheering for the USA and fighting men? There is a sad reality to war that few if any other than those who have experienced can understand, War Sucks!

Second, "if the press really reported what is going on" then the people would hear more about the boring positives the US and its forces are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The truth is, people don't want boring happy stories in the news, thats why all we hear is the bad news. And, with the importance of ratings being what they are in this day and age, the more horrible the story, the more graphic the pictures, the more controversial the segment, the better for the news folks.