I have a question.

For all emotional and practical (not legal or technical) purposes, other than the driving ideology of course, is there really much difference between a group of terrorists driving up to an airport terminal and shooting fifteen people with assault weapons, and a street gang driving up and doing the same thing to numerous people in a park, or on a street corner?

I ask this because the latter is exactly how the closest friend I ever knew in this life died. He was shot sixteen times in the back next to a video arcade. The people who killed him believed they were totally justified in what they did. The one who actually pulled the trigger was let out of custody due to a technicality.

The first post in this thread is partially (perhaps mostly) predicated on the notion that if torture could prevent the deaths of loved ones, and if terrorists killed our loved ones, we would see the value in torture. I don't want my friend's killer dead. I don't want him to suffer. I don't want him to be tortured. In fact, I hope he lives a long, happy life that is free of further violence (though that’s probably too much to hope for… but one can always hope in my opinion.) I would, of course, prefer it if he were behind bars, but only for society’s good – not out of vengeance.

I would therefore argue that the notion on which that post was predicated is not a universally shared point of view, and that for some, torture is impermissible in any context. I'm one of those people.

I respect the OP's opinion, though. I even understand it. I just can't find it within myself to share it.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Res_ipsa_loquitur
I think writing a 15,000 word legal dissertation on the legality of torture in a international law context suggests I may have a clue on the subject.

Off topic, but I'm interested in this.

Yeah, me too. I'm sure some facts were uncovered in this legal research. Some moral points must have been raised. I am right when I say torture is used by the most ignorant nations, right?

An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

I guess most people find torture offensive mainly because of empathy.

My personal belief on why Torture should never be condoned is that it is a truly Medieval Practice - harking back to stinking pits otherwise referred to as dungeons whereby poor souls who may or may not have even been guilty languished for all eternity, in many cases simply forgotten about.

And of course, any change of scenery for them would have been a trip to the torturer's chambers.

I'm one step away from calling the practice Barbaric, you realise?

The simple fact is that you are torturing someone who may or may not be innocent.

And i'll not wish that kind of punishment on a man who did nothing wrong, no matter the perceived nessecity.

Do you really think that all those tens of thousands of prisioners in Guantanomo are all Guilty?

If we did this with a conventional prision there'd be a *snip* outrage!

I find torture offensive because I find violence done to a person who has no chance whatsoever to escape that violence offensive.

I'm assuming, OP, that you have no objection to torture. Where do you draw the line as to what's acceptable? Do we bring in a suspected terrorist's wife, rape her a few times in front of him? How about a child? Is that justifiable to you? They 'may' be guilty as well, you know, what with being so close to the suspect. How could they not know what he was planning?

Anybody who can bring themselves to torture another person is a retarded human. Not in the mental defect sense, but in the I-Stopped-Developing-Emotionally-At-The-Age-Of-Three sense.

Torture is offensive because it is unethical. Let's modify your sample and say you were blamed for the attack on the subway, although you did nothing involving it. They tortured you for weeks until you starved to death. Was that justified for the sake of liberty?

No. We just become the evil that we swear we are fighting.

You know these threads make me sick to my stomach.

As a person who lost 2 family members and 3 close friends in the 911 attacks I am deeply offended.

I find nothing wrong with torturing these terrorists.

I will volunteer to go to gitmo, abu graub, irag, afganistan, or anywhere in the world to KILL as many of these losers as I can.

I'm too old to join the military or I would have.

Now, let me be clear, it is easy for you folks to monday morning quarterback here - you have no Idea what the other survivors have gone through.

These people need to be killed. Every last one of them. They need to be wiped off the face of the planet. You have no idea what kind of fanaticism this is.

Yeah, So, I volunteer, anytime, anyplace, I'll pull the trigger on any one of them. I'll send 20, 30, 40, 50,000 volts of electricity through any of them.

I'll pull of fingernails - whatever.

There. I said it. Too bad...

Let them all rot in hell for what they've done.

What a bunch of losers

Ace, Ace, Ace,
you were right the first time. There is no difference. Gangs are terrorists. Jesse Ventura is right, we are no safer and can never be safer from people like this. The war on terror should start at home. Get these fracking gangs off the street. Bush you piece of lying scum!
The real truth is that we are giving up our freedoms for the illusion of safety that can't be given.
Torture is for the weak minded. My nemisis "Res Ipsa II" aparently didn't learn anything from his 15,000 word treastie on torture if he has concluded that torture is effective for anything other than terror.
So, fight terror with terror, is that our motto now?
For any of you that thinks we are or can win a war on terror on foreign soil, why haven't we wiped the gangs out in our cities? Do they serve some economic purpose? If we can't put a dent in what they do, then how in the hell do you think we can do anything about them else where.
Hey ResII, where do you go to school?

These people need to be killed. Every last one of them. They need to be wiped off the face of the planet. You have no idea what kind of fanaticism this is.

The exact kind of blind patriotism your display on this thread?

I say to the OP... if you think torture is not morally or ethically questionable, let's suspend you from your wrists for a couple of days, give you a few hours of waterboarding, sexually assault you, force to wear women's clothing, let some K-9's loose onto you, strip you naked and pile you onto other men and apply electricity to your genitals.

Then tell us all how ethical and moral it is?

You DON'T fight fire with fire. You don't triumph over your enemies by becoming as they are.
We fight not only to protect our lives, but to protect our principles. To condone torture is to admit that America's forefathers who sacrificed their lives to establish a free nation were fundamentally wrong.

Do you also agree with notion? Didn't think so...

[edit on 16/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]