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Why is torture so offensive to people?

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posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:16 PM
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Just friggin great, couldn't you have come up with a more original username?
People are going to confuse me with you. I suppose I should dump my signiture now.




posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by Res_ipsa_loquitur

I would not wish that on anyone but the incidents of innocents being abducted vastly outnumbers those who have had a connection.


Then, as a post grad law student, you know that the above statement need some proof. Otherwise you are nothing more than a common troll.


Indeed, however how could I possibly begin to provide evidence on the number of guilty and innocent persons involved in torture/rendition flights? As I am sure you will be aware, the figures aren't readily available to the general public for me to support my claim, it was a mere generalisation.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Just friggin great, couldn't you have come up with a more original username?
People are going to confuse me with you. I suppose I should dump my signiture now.


I knew I saw that somewhere!
Nah, just make YOUR moniker more outstanding with your posting, eh?


Cuhail



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Just friggin great, couldn't you have come up with a more original username?
People are going to confuse me with you. I suppose I should dump my signiture now.


I apologise, I didn't realise that the usage of a latin phrase used in tort could amount to unoriginality.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Res_ipsa_loquitur
As I am sure you will be aware, the figures aren't readily available to the general public for me to support my claim, it was a mere generalization.



Then allow me to make a slight generalization....

I'll bet that you will be one of the first whining, and calling the enemy, brutal, inhuman bastards when some British soldier boy is captured, tortured and killed.

If we can't raise to a higher level of humanity, grace and style, then we
also are no better than beasts.

I pray you are just playing devils advocate here. If not, I find it hard to
believe that you are a post grad student without taking any courses in "ethics"





[edit on 15-5-2008 by whaaa]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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Cause it is wrong morally and spiritually. Against the Geneva convention. Opens 'your' troops up to the same. Yields low value questionable data.
Only, only, scenario I could see, is a 24 hr where we have a nuke somewhere and the clock is running.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by Res_ipsa_loquitur
 


Why? because is not part of the bases of democracy.

This a great link to a very great article on the subject.

Democracy, human dignity incompatible with torture


The assumption that others feel pain as we do makes democracy possible. It is the foundation for our confidence that all Americans are entitled to the same rights and freedoms. Because respecting human dignity is the essence of democracy, there is no calculus in which our democracy can be protected by torturing others.

The moment we treat another human being as an animal, the moment we stop sympathizing with his or her pain and suffering, we are training ourselves to be despots and betraying the American Revolution's promise to the world. The moment we admit that it is OK to torture another human being — to deny his or her body human dignity — the terrorists have already won.
.

Even our founding fathers understood the dangers of torture in our nations future.



[edit on 15-5-2008 by marg6043]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 05:58 PM
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If you were ever torured than you would know it is evil.

Have you ever heard of a word called empathy?



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Res_ipsa_loquitur

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Just friggin great, couldn't you have come up with a more original username?
People are going to confuse me with you. I suppose I should dump my signiture now.


I apologise, I didn't realise that the usage of a latin phrase used in tort could amount to unoriginality.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as far as usernames go on ATS it is obviously not original.
I don't want people thinking that I would ever condone torture under any circumstance.
Do you have an alternate latin phrase you might consider?
Is it unreasonable for me to ask?
I mean you just joined today. How about "estoppel"? "Per Stirpes"
"Res Gestae" "ipso facto" ....there has to be a bunch of other good ones.
.....I'm not going to make any more of an issue about this but I wish you would reconcider.
Res ipsa.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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W. Don't you think you'd want to relocate to Dubai? They allow two or more wives there. What with Condi calling you her 'husband' and all. Plus, they just made a great new golf course there. You go boy. The farther the better. Take Rummy and sharp teeth with ya'.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Res_ipsa_loquitur
I think writing a 15,000 word legal dissertation on the legality of torture in a international law context suggests I may have a clue on the subject.

Off topic, but I'm interested in this.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 09:12 PM
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Alright. I'll try it from a subjective P.O.V.

If some one close to me was killed in a terrorist attack on a plane train or automobile, I'd be angry, seething angry, and probably thinking about revenge. I would hope that though at some point, my humanity would resurface and see that torturing someone would make me no better than the person who committed the act in the first place. The information derived from torture is speculative at best.

I believe Ghandi said it best...


An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind


Now a question for you.

What would be your subjective reaction to one of your loved ones being tortured due to racial profiling or in accurate information garnered from torture?

How would you feel about torture then?

I guess that's two questions.

Oh and an alternative to torture. How about professional intelligence gathering. Or maybe infiltrate the organizations in question. The FBI did it with the Mob in America and Canada. Or here's a really crazy one. Stop interfering in countries internal affairs or deposing leaders of countries to replace them with pro western puppets.

Maybe some of those suggestions would help eliminate the perceived need for torture.



[edit on 15-5-2008 by GAOTU789]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 09:22 PM
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"Human rights/civil liberty promoters endlessly rant about how inhuman, unconstitutional, illegal, etc the practice is. I think the key flaw in their whole argument is that torturing suspects who wish to threaten our freedom and liberty is indirectly preserving our rights granted by law by removing the threat which they desperately advocate."

I would argue you* just became the evil that takes away the same human rights/civil liberties you* claim to be protecting. You* can't protect liberty and freedom by terrorizing those who don't accept your** ideas of what it is.

The flaw in your** argument is that you* have some wisdom or greater logic that allows you* to know who is the enemy and what they are thinking. And what they should be thinking.

*Not you personally
** Not your as in a personal pronoun





[edit on 15-5-2008 by garyo1954]

[edit on 15-5-2008 by garyo1954]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:07 PM
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Because it's wrong...Let me say that again...for the slow learners...because it's wrong.

It is a means of control by the perpetrators. That control mechanism is FEAR. Another step along the path to fascism and silencing dissent. It allows you to dehumanize your opponents and frighten your followers. That is the primary reason for torture...not for information for control. Not control of the enemy but control of you.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:27 PM
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Cause I have a problem with seeing hadjis led about on dog chains by wv mobile home gi's. Because I have a problem with the ketchup being poured on them is not female monthly leavings, leaving them feeling physically and psychologically shamed to insanity. Have we forgotten Abhu Gahbi (sp)?.
Rummy wanted to burn the place. Sure that's only the 5% we know about.



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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This "ticking time-bomb" scenario all these torture advocates use to justify it not only absolutely laughable but secondly...

Name me ONE time in the last 500 years, when we've ever had such a scenario on our hands? When a huge loss of life could have been prevented if we had tortured somebody in custody?
The chance of these types of incidents occurring is almost nil. Even in today's world.

The startling truth that has been proven over and over again is that torture DOES NOT WORK.
People under that kind of physical and mental anguish will do ANYTHING to relieve themselves of it, and if that includes incriminating themselves for something they did not do, they will do it.

Vietnam Veterans, the FBI, Police Interrogators and even John McCain have all testifed how ineffective torture is in gaining solid, verifiable evidence that can stand up to scrutiny in a court room:

Washington Post
The Independant
Victims of Torture
AlterNet
CommonDreams

The point to remember is when you torture people, especially over prolonged periods of time in isolation or some kind of detention, is that their mind is broken. They loose all will to live, all notions of self-preservation and decency just fly out the window.

I think McCain himself put it best, "Every man has his breaking point."
McCain attempted suicide numerous times while being held in Vietnam, which goes to show you how desperate torture victims become to end their suffering.

Which is why people tortured say anything and everything; they have no reason to say otherwise. Most of them truly believe they will die or never the see the light of day again, it's part of braking down their resistance that whole "atmosphere of gloom".

And who's to say, in a hypothetical situation, like the "ticking time-bomb scenario" (which still mind you is baseless) that a man would actually give himself up?
I think dedicated Islamic Extremists would rather die, and be seen as martyrs for their cause than give themselves up like that.
To them, it's the benefit of killing a greater number of "enemies", that greatly outweighs their self preservation.
I mean essentially, to most of these Islamic Fundamentalists, their lives mean jack all to them. The proof of that is Suicide Bombing.

Put yourself in their shoes: As long as they take down a group of people with them, their death is not in vain according to these Islamic Extremists. And the more that perish, the better and greater their sacrifice was.

And if their dedicated and well trained I think they would rather die than blow a chance to kill hundreds or thousands of "infidels."



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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[Torture] doesn't work. It often is misleading, as in the case of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, an Al Qaeda lieutenant who was tortured into saying that Saddam Hussein worked with Al Qaeda and had weapons of mass destruction. That was the information that the U.S. was trying to get out of him, and he gave it to the interrogators under torture, and that became part of the rationale for the U.S. going to war with Iraq -- a disastrous consequence of choosing an unethical approach to gaining information."


Here, if this doesn't convince anybody, we're wasting our time.

Not only is it sick and twisted, but it doesn't work. I thought WE were supposed to be the good guys...

[edit on 5/16/2008 by bigbert81]



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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Torturing people like our gov does isn 't like how you think it is.. IF it were under strict watch and taken with seriousness and care and no excess torture was used then maybe i could see it used on occasion. However.......

Thats not how it happens........Before you post again .....think about this....How about we tie you up and use whatever method we want to torture you for hours, days, weeks, then you come back and post and tell me if you think torture is a good idea....



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Res_ipsa_loquitur
 

why is torture offensive ?well i wouldn't want to be tortured and neither would you want to be tortured.
Messiah says:in everything,treat other people the same way you want them to treat you(matthew7:12)
assuming that the new brain scanner that scientists have developed will not damage our cells and cause cancer/etc.
if some government agency was not sure that they could count on me to be not lying to their questions,i would not mind them using their brain scanner on me because i have no secrets to hide other than i wouldn,t want them to use the info they get to empty my bank account and rob me of the income i rightfully earned for me and my family.



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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Whoa, Whoa, Whoa...
To all those that are 'for' torture, I ask only this: Was Jesus not tortured? Is this a proper form of treatment for any individual? Torture only shows the cowardice of those inflicting these atrocities on another.



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