This is great, I love zen buddhism, I don't agree with their belief of what happens when you die, it is as illogical as heaven, that is when you obtain "enlightenment".

Hmm getting off subject, but whatever...it is quite sad really.

The goal of life IS to obtain enlightenment, that "nirvana". But when we die we are born again, the sad thing is that most of those who obtain it lose it, and there is not a wide acceptance of achieving it, meaning you've lost it for the next life.

I think buddhism should recognize that when you die you are reborn, regardless of enlightenment or not. And then it would be the perfect religion, because it would be rudamentary. Not trying to predect what happens when you die or such. It just recognizes the fact that you don't cease to exist.

Why isn't there a religion that doesn't believe in a heaven or hell? Why isn't there simply a religion that believes in life, and what happens afterwards is of less concern, because you can not cease to exist! Therefore all that matters is making life as enlightened as possible, for all.

Sincerely,
no signature

Hmm more ramblings...

...looking at the thigns that makes Zen what it is, I don't think Zen is accurately defined by itself.

It teaches that through Zen you learn about yourself, and thus awake and obtain enlightenment no?

It seems to me Zen produces wisdom, but this enlightenment can be achieved most any way as long as you reflect on yourself, on others, and on the whole of existance

I'd be damn close to enlightenment if I weren't so biggoted

Sincerely,
no signature

"Zen is beyond religion. Religions remain what they are. Zen is meditation. Meditation is the foundation of every religion."

- S. Suzuki

One conclusion is that Zen stands alone and Buddhism
is the religion that a practitioner of Zen most often accepts.

"I came to realize that mind is no other than mountains and rivers and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and the stars." - Dogen

A relationship between man and his surroundings is expressed here as complete in every way. One way of thinking of this is that a practitioner tries as much as possible to ignore there particle aspect and focus only on the wave aspect in relation to Particle wave theory.

"If enlightenment is not where you are standing, where will you look?"
- Zen Saying

To a believer of this system there is no separation between Heaven and Earth. Earth is an aspect of Heaven. As well in these systems of belief is the implication that the war in heaven, as depicted in the Judeo-Christian faith is not over. Potentially this acts as a justification for the issue of reincarnation.

Toltec thanks, Good subject!

FreeMason, I think that Budddhism teaches that you carry with you the consequences of your actions in previous lives--cause and effect or, in Buddhist terms, karma. The idea being to fully acheive a state of mind in a rebirth that allows you to function with a non-discriminatory mind (enlightenment) and thus generate no further karma that must be expiated.

The baggage you enter a new physical existance with is all the previous karma, both 'good' and 'bad', that you have generated throughout your countless previous births. This karma must be 'worked through' or experienced by you before your True Self (spirit? soul?) can end your round of re-birth and enter what is called Nirvana, and must be expiated even though you may have become fully enlightened.

There is a Zen koan--a story that points to enlightenment through ones attempts to reason it out--about a man who asks a Zen Master if a fully Enlightened person (a Buddha) is subject to the laws of cause and effect (karma). The Zen Master answers by saying 'He is not exempt from cause and effect.'
In other words even a Buddha must pay back his/her karmic 'debt' before entering nirvana

So, from a Zen point of view, the path to enlightenment seems a continuing process, where one can attain some spiritual enlightenment and carry it from birth to birth to birth and that karma requires all beings to experience rebirth and karma in such a succession of rebirths.

Problem is, we make new karma as we go so physical existence and the suffering it causes can only end when karma is 'played out' sometime after full enlightenment.

toodlums