The points that I raised in a previous thread were to the tune of this and came to the same conclusion, but in much greater length and detail for
every verse mentioning homosexuality. You can find it here.
Anyways, I agree (just as I discussed in the linked thread) that 1 Corinthians is talking about Pagan rituals, not homosexuality. However, Leviticus
explicitly states that Homosexuality is wrong. The way Christianity remedies this is that Leviticus is the old law, one that Christian's no longer
follow.
I quote myself from that thread because it is a very good point,
"Peter's vision as explained in Acts 11:5-9, seems to suggest that the old law (Levitical Law) was no longer in effect, as all that was unclean
was now cleansed by God. Which is why Acts 11:1-18 ends with,
"18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto
life."" Acts 11:18.
It seems that God had repealed the old law himself"
Does the bible condemn homosexuality?, page 4
privacy
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 03:20 PM by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
I have not read all of your comments, but i suspect you did not mention what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans (new testament) where he mentions "they burned in lust for each other...." The message is clear, you should read it with an open mind that you claim to have (i assume).
I have not read all of your comments, but i suspect you did not mention what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans (new testament) where he mentions "they burned in lust for each other...." The message is clear, you should read it with an open mind that you claim to have (i assume).
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 03:35 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by InterestedObserver
Only the ceremonial law was abolished. This related to food and clothing, etc., which set the Jews apart from Gentiles as the people of God.
If you look at the passage you quote you will see this fits the context perfectly: God had revealed to Peter that the 'repentence that leads to life', which follows hearing and believing the Gospel, was now available to those who did not practice the ceremonial laws.
The repentence that leads to life actually means turning from lawlessness and covenanting with God to seek to live by His moral Law. God certainly did not abrogate any moral laws, whether in terms of homosexual practice, adultery or premarital sex - or in any other realm for that matter. Jesus specifically said he did not come to abolish God's Law (i.e. the moral law) and this is 100% clear from Romans, where it is again specifically said that the Law is not abolished by the Gospel. Believers are to keep it, and thus establish the Law!
Only the ceremonial law was abolished. This related to food and clothing, etc., which set the Jews apart from Gentiles as the people of God.
If you look at the passage you quote you will see this fits the context perfectly: God had revealed to Peter that the 'repentence that leads to life', which follows hearing and believing the Gospel, was now available to those who did not practice the ceremonial laws.
The repentence that leads to life actually means turning from lawlessness and covenanting with God to seek to live by His moral Law. God certainly did not abrogate any moral laws, whether in terms of homosexual practice, adultery or premarital sex - or in any other realm for that matter. Jesus specifically said he did not come to abolish God's Law (i.e. the moral law) and this is 100% clear from Romans, where it is again specifically said that the Law is not abolished by the Gospel. Believers are to keep it, and thus establish the Law!
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 03:54 PM by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Anonymous ATS
Burned in lust? You mean the same lust the townsmen had when they wanted to rape the men/angels?
Burned in lust? You mean the same lust the townsmen had when they wanted to rape the men/angels?
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:16 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Howie47
This could not be further from the truth.
Jesus in Matthew 5:17a:
Romans 3:29-31
Christian's are no longer under the old law, even the 10 commandments.
This could not be further from the truth.
Jesus in Matthew 5:17a:
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law...
...is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one [i.e. Jew & Gentile are forgiven and accepted through faith in the Cross of Christ]. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law
Romans 3:29-31
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:20 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Hi. This is what I said on page 1 of this thread:
Hi. This is what I said on page 1 of this thread:
The death penalty only applied when the Jewish nation was a theocracy - i.e. in Old Testament times when they regarded the eternal God as their Law-maker, Ruler and Judge. The same penalty was also prescribed for adultery and for fornication; it was not, as some people assume, something peculiar to homosexual practice.
Although the penalty is no longer relevant, the same moral law still stands today - i.e. it is the standard by which all of us will be judged on the day of judgement, unless we have found forgiveness through the Cross. Jesus stated in no uncertain terms that he had not come to abolish the law:
"Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill... whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven...
Gospel of Matthew 5:17&19
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:26 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
This is simply a false statement. It is mentioned very clearly, and it could carry the death penalty. In this post on another thread I discussed this issue, and the issue of how the moral law still stands in its entirety:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The O.T. passage is Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Sex before marriage is not mentioned anywhere in the bible's 613 laws.
This is simply a false statement. It is mentioned very clearly, and it could carry the death penalty. In this post on another thread I discussed this issue, and the issue of how the moral law still stands in its entirety:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The O.T. passage is Deuteronomy 22:13-21
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:32 PM by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by pause4thought
I challenge you to this task Pause4Thought:
Post some scripture, the red text kind (Christs words), that support the idea that Christ would be against homosexuality.
Here is an even bigger challenge:
Post some red text scripture to support the idea that he would have no problems with it
What you are unable to find, I will find and post for you
I challenge you to this task Pause4Thought:
Post some scripture, the red text kind (Christs words), that support the idea that Christ would be against homosexuality.
Here is an even bigger challenge:
Post some red text scripture to support the idea that he would have no problems with it
What you are unable to find, I will find and post for you
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:37 PM by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by pause4thought
Okay, death penalty aside, although that isn't worded in The Bible itself which clearly states to kill those people.
What about women talking in Church. What is your stance on that? According to OT, it's not permitted. That's not clothing, that's a moral issue.
And how do you know in Gospel of Matthew 5:17&19 Jesus Christ wasn't specifically speaking of the 10 commandments? He uses the term commandments after he speaks of the law. I don't interpret from that passage, anything further then him *possibly saying obey the 10 commandments. I am just curious why you are?
[edit on 043131p://16u12 by Lucid Lunacy]
Okay, death penalty aside, although that isn't worded in The Bible itself which clearly states to kill those people.
What about women talking in Church. What is your stance on that? According to OT, it's not permitted. That's not clothing, that's a moral issue.
And how do you know in Gospel of Matthew 5:17&19 Jesus Christ wasn't specifically speaking of the 10 commandments? He uses the term commandments after he speaks of the law. I don't interpret from that passage, anything further then him *possibly saying obey the 10 commandments. I am just curious why you are?
[edit on 043131p://16u12 by Lucid Lunacy]
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 04:39 PM by Howie47
reply to post by pause4thought
Jesus did fulfill the law. It was nailed to the cross with him. It was fullfilled for all thoughs that believe on him. He did what no other could do.
Gal.3:10-13 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse' for it is written, Curssed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
but that no man is justified by the law in the sight o God, it is evident : for , The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith; but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Chirst hath (redeemed) us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" for it is written , Cursesed is every one that hangent on a tree!
Rom. 7.4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him that is raised from the dead. That we should bring forth fruit unto God.
There are many other verses I could provide that say the same. So it is your posistion that couldn't be further from the truth!
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
Jesus did fulfill the law. It was nailed to the cross with him. It was fullfilled for all thoughs that believe on him. He did what no other could do.
Gal.3:10-13 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse' for it is written, Curssed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
but that no man is justified by the law in the sight o God, it is evident : for , The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith; but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Chirst hath (redeemed) us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" for it is written , Cursesed is every one that hangent on a tree!
Rom. 7.4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him that is raised from the dead. That we should bring forth fruit unto God.
There are many other verses I could provide that say the same. So it is your posistion that couldn't be further from the truth!
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:01 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Howie47
Christians are dead to the Law in terms of seeking to establish their own righteousness in order to be accepted by God. Those who seek to establish their own claim to be good enough to enter Heaven by their own deeds are under a curse. That is what those verses state.
The person who has been justified by faith must then enter a covenant with God to seek to live by His Law, through repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is how any person can set out on the road to Heaven, whether homosexual or not.
This is what Jesus said he will say to those who claim to be his followers but ignore God's Law:
Matthew 7:23b
Matthew 13:41b
I could provide many more such examples. I'm not shouting at anyone here, simply laying out what is actually written. As far as God is concerned the moral Law of God still stands in its entirety, and God requires that his people seek to live by it - to thank him for the Cross, not to justify themselves, though!
Christians are dead to the Law in terms of seeking to establish their own righteousness in order to be accepted by God. Those who seek to establish their own claim to be good enough to enter Heaven by their own deeds are under a curse. That is what those verses state.
The person who has been justified by faith must then enter a covenant with God to seek to live by His Law, through repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is how any person can set out on the road to Heaven, whether homosexual or not.
This is what Jesus said he will say to those who claim to be his followers but ignore God's Law:
"I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."
Matthew 7:23b
..."they will gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness."
Matthew 13:41b
I could provide many more such examples. I'm not shouting at anyone here, simply laying out what is actually written. As far as God is concerned the moral Law of God still stands in its entirety, and God requires that his people seek to live by it - to thank him for the Cross, not to justify themselves, though!
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:07 PM by InterestedObserver
reply to post by pause4thought
You can't apply what Jesus said before his death, because all the passages mentioned by Howie are BECAUSE of Jesus' death.
You can't apply what Jesus said before his death, because all the passages mentioned by Howie are BECAUSE of Jesus' death.
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:16 PM by Howie47
reply to post by pause4thought
Now you are leaning to your own understanding and applying your own private interpretation!
You have not fully believed on Jesus Christ yet! Paul had this same debate with some of the disciples. These disciples never left Jerusalem to obey Christ command; "to go into all the world and preach the gospel."
They compromised with the Jews and started teaching the disciples should be circumcised. Which was a sign of putting yourself under the old covenant and law. If your under the Law of Moses. You are still under the curse. Your salvation is not sure yet. Choose you this day whom you shall serve. If Jesus Christ be your God. Then believe on Him. If Moses be your God. Then serve him and his law. If couldn't be any clearer!
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
Now you are leaning to your own understanding and applying your own private interpretation!
Christians are dead to the Law in terms of seeking to establish their own righteousness in order to be accepted by God. Those who seek to establish their own claim to be good enough to enter Heaven by their own deeds are under a curse. That is what those verses state.
You have not fully believed on Jesus Christ yet! Paul had this same debate with some of the disciples. These disciples never left Jerusalem to obey Christ command; "to go into all the world and preach the gospel."
They compromised with the Jews and started teaching the disciples should be circumcised. Which was a sign of putting yourself under the old covenant and law. If your under the Law of Moses. You are still under the curse. Your salvation is not sure yet. Choose you this day whom you shall serve. If Jesus Christ be your God. Then believe on Him. If Moses be your God. Then serve him and his law. If couldn't be any clearer!
[edit on 16-5-2008 by Howie47]
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:17 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Hi again. Here is a response to your challenges:
Jesus said that what comes from the mouth originates in the heart, and reveals its sinful state (Matthew 15:18) This includes all manner of "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false tesimonies, blasphemies..." (Matt. 15:19). 'Sexual immoralties' are all sexual acts outside male-female marriage, which is the universal testimony of the Old and New Testaments.
You were presumably planning to make a blank post. But are you someone who is prepared to look at what the Scripture actually says and reconsider their views?
As to women not speaking in church it is a clear statement to the effect that the task of preaching has been appointed to men. (A rather unrelated issue.)
Concerning your final point: if you look again Jesus was speaking of the "Law and the Prophets". This was a common Hebrew phrase that meant the whole of the Old Testament.
Hi again. Here is a response to your challenges:
Jesus said that what comes from the mouth originates in the heart, and reveals its sinful state (Matthew 15:18) This includes all manner of "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false tesimonies, blasphemies..." (Matt. 15:19). 'Sexual immoralties' are all sexual acts outside male-female marriage, which is the universal testimony of the Old and New Testaments.
You were presumably planning to make a blank post. But are you someone who is prepared to look at what the Scripture actually says and reconsider their views?
As to women not speaking in church it is a clear statement to the effect that the task of preaching has been appointed to men. (A rather unrelated issue.)
Concerning your final point: if you look again Jesus was speaking of the "Law and the Prophets". This was a common Hebrew phrase that meant the whole of the Old Testament.
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:40 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by Howie47
No sir! Circumcision was part of the ceremonial law that set apart the Jews as God's people. It was a sign that they were under the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant, but in order to become a Christian you must repent, which means turn from lawlessness and seek to live by God's Law through the power of the Holy Spirit.
I have been a disciple of Christ for 28 years. He turned my life upside down: I was once violent and a blasphemer; I now live for his glory by worshipping him through living his way. My imperfections past, present and future, have all been paid for by his blood.
1 John 2:3&4
Revelation 14:12
What then is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It is the promise of eternal life in Heaven through repentance from lawlessness in response to the message of the Cross, with God's Spirit washing and cleansing the soul:
Revelation 22:14&15
No sir! Circumcision was part of the ceremonial law that set apart the Jews as God's people. It was a sign that they were under the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant, but in order to become a Christian you must repent, which means turn from lawlessness and seek to live by God's Law through the power of the Holy Spirit.
I have been a disciple of Christ for 28 years. He turned my life upside down: I was once violent and a blasphemer; I now live for his glory by worshipping him through living his way. My imperfections past, present and future, have all been paid for by his blood.
This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," without keeping His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:3&4
Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.
Revelation 14:12
What then is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It is the promise of eternal life in Heaven through repentance from lawlessness in response to the message of the Cross, with God's Spirit washing and cleansing the soul:
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolitors, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Revelation 22:14&15
reply posted on 16-5-2008 @ 05:43 PM by pause4thought
reply to post by skyshow
Sir, if you regard Jesus Christ as a nutcase, sign me up.
Thank my stars I don't believe in it at all and am able to stand back and watch the religious part of society continue to act like certifiable nut cases!
Sir, if you regard Jesus Christ as a nutcase, sign me up.
What if all the major religions started out with the same story and it slowly diverged from there
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