Does the bible condemn homosexuality?

reply to post by jakyll

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Still grasping at straws to justify sin I see? Your own Mormon church tells you you can have a homosexual predisposition but you can not act on it. So you can call your self a homosexual but you have to remain celebrate for life. Or you could get in recovery.

From an ex Lesbian...

YouTube Link

So now you are trying to justify homosexual sex acts with the Bible? Sorry no way. If you want to be live that life fine. That's your choice. But don't be dishonest and say the Bible agrees with it.

Ohhhhh please!
'
But his does.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Lev 18:22'

Cherry picking the Bible will never justify that life style. There is recovery and you can get passed it. It is a lie from Hell that you have to be Gay just because you have an inclination toward it. Alcoholics get sober with Jesus. Drug Addicts get straight and Homosexuals convert to heterosexuals with the power of God. You can overcome sin instead of trying to rationalize it.

[edit on 7/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by jakyll

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The only answer consistent with the teaching of the entire Bible is: those with physical or mental disabilities who are unable to marry. Your suggestion that he could have had homosexual orientation in mind only comes from having a prior agenda to justify homosexual practice, it has to be said. As many earlier contributors to this debate explained, the consistent teaching of the Bible is that all sexual practice outside male-female marriage is sexual immorality.

The argument put forward concerning rape and rituals were dealt with exhaustively earlier - in fact many weeks ago - and entirely refuted. The same goes for several other points added in the last couple of weeks.

I do not have time to answer your other points, but hope to return in the near future, when I have time.

reply to post by pause4thought

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The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear pause4thought

Yes you are quite right, that is the meaning of those words of Christ, that there are people that for many reasons is not able to go ahead successfully to the marriage and have a plenty satisfactory sexual life. But notice he is answering a question of his disciples about marriage, and he is not saying something like this:

Ok guys, if you cannot, for any reason marry a lady lets do the same thing with another guy.

He is just saying that Not everybody can marry and that is a fact that must be accepted by that people and the society. This is the reason for which the Trully Christian solution is to accept this situation, provide the most confortable life to those human beings and respect them, but that does not means to transform the traditional marriage in other thing.

God is love in Christianism, and therefore he is not going to condemn a person for a condition that even he is the least guilty or responsible to be experiencing, there are many social & psicological reasons that promotes homosexual behaviour:

Lack of Fathers image, a Negative Fathers image, lack of Identification with the same genre, a Dominant father that never gave love to his male son, orfhan of father without adoptive fathers figure, recentment against fathers figure, hormonal physiological causes, hermaphroditism, etc.

The associations between people that does not want to live a Marriage are entirely acceptable, those couples must no necessarily cause scandal or inconvenience to Christianism, but they have their own correct place in the society.

I mentioned in my replies in this same thread that the Christian solution is the Adelphopoeia, a rite that is so old and still exist in the Orthodox and coptic churches,as well than in the Armenians and Catholics of the Greek, Ukrainian & eastern rites in general.

That means some type of partnership but different than Marriage, and of course nothing to do in connection with Sodomy, not based in sexual mutual favor but in genuine Love and comprehension. Of course that love can have its own physical expression ways but according with the rules of the sexual morality stated by God. Tenderness, caresses, hugs, massages, kisses are not forbidden on it,and the coital sexuality is not all in life.


Adelphopoiea is a dignity choice for the guys that think to be in the homoerotic or homophilic conditions, I don't like to use the word homosexual since that is based in the so dubious assumption of Freud that the man is a sexual being.
.
There is in the western Christianity the assumption that formal accepted same Genre unions is something new and never before threated by Religion, but ths is completly false, is as old as our civilization can be. In fact the Christian religion provided a much better choice thousands of years before any civil law do it.

You can know more about Adelphopoeia rites at:
english.gay.ru...

By the way I have a thread open for this same business in Dreams and personal predictions at BTS, you can visit it by accessing my profile( www.abovetopsecret.com...)to get more information if you need it.

thanks for your atention,

The Angel of lightness





[edit on 7/8/2008 by The angel of light]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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I know what it teaches.And i bring up the same questions with them as i do
on places like this.


I brought up the eunuch quote because i would like to know ppl's opinions and interpretations.Matthew 19:12 is an intriguing verse,especially when you take Isaiah 56:4-5 into account.


And,as i've probably said before so forgive if i'm repeating myself,if a gang of men at anytime or anyplace demand that ppl be brought out to them so they can "know them" then this is not sex,of any kind.It is force,which means it is rape,which isn't sex.Sex is a consenting act between 2 adults,rape isn't.
Did the Angels agree to go with the men of Sodom? No,they didn't.They knew these men were trying to take them by force....


Parts of the Bible do say that homosexuality is wrong.Is that truth or misinterpretation of pagan ceremonies? Personally I don't know,i'm still studying the topic.What i do know is Sodom's sins had little to do with homosexuality and the story of the locals and the Angles also has nothing to do with homosexuality.






Yes,and some ppl who have been married for 20 30 yrs can suddenly fall in love with someone of the same sex.There is not one type of "gay" there are no rules to how ppl are.
Most gays just are what they are,they have known since their sexual awakening.Some ppl are shallow enough to try gay sex because its fashionable or bcoz they think relationships will be easier if they date someone of their own gender.I personally wouldn't class such ppl as homosexual.Some get classed as gay because they were abused as children and the fear within them makes them find the opposite sex repulsive and,as all humans long for human affection,they will be with someone of the same sex rather than spend their life alone.
Some ppl will genuinly "conquer" their gayness and others will claim to have but will still get the urges the rest of their lives.why? because they are gay,not straight! But because they are surrounded by ppl who instill them with self hatred they feel they have to conform.Anyone who treats you like that,over anything,and you would want to change who you are! If you are with ppl who accept you,then you will be happy with yourself.



You are straight,imagine you have to kiss another man/woman.Society demands it.How does that make you feel? Sick? Uncomfortable? Does every fiber of your body tell you that it is wrong?

Thats how i feel when ppl tell me that i should "conquer" my homosexuality.
The idea of being anything more than friends with a man goes against my nature,just as you kissing someone of the same sex goes against your nature.


As i said to my Bishop recently;can God truly be all loving when he is condemning 10% of the population??











[edit on 8-7-2008 by jakyll]

Ok fair enough... First off I struggle with my own sins. I do not condemn you at all. I just don't think it is justifiable and feel the need to state the truth as Christian OK.



Back then slaves were often castrated. So the Isaiah quote was God promising them glory in heaven because of their unfair lot on earth. Some people are born eunuchs like a birth defect. Up into the 19th century they castrated boys to make them into opera singers. The castati. There are recordings of the last living one. The voice can not be duplicated.

This is also where the idea of celibacy for priests comes from -- from the "renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven" part.

Paul never married.

Origien actually castrated himself.



This argument must come from a gay website. I have debunked it before.
That point is completely fallacious!!! Remember when Abraham bargained with God to save Sodom and got it down to 10 righteous men? He could not find even 10. SO... The decision to destroy Sodom was already made before that "rape" event occurred. But the rape never happened either. The angels blinded the men. So that was not the reason! You are referring to the 2 angels that were sent to destroy Sodom that those men wanted to rape. So that act was not the reason..it was already a done deal.

You know that's the truth. The bible doesn't list all the reasons. Just that not even 10 righteous men could be found in the entire city. Perversion was certainly one reason.





Well I don't think we pick and choose the parts that suit us. Roman1 is often said to be a pagan ritual but that is debunked as well.

See the thing is its any sex out side of a traditional marriage as defined by Jesus.

ANY sex so its not just picking on homosexuals.





Abstain if you want to be a Christian and follow the Bible.



I struggle with sin everyday. We all have a cross to bear. I have heard many testimonies from folks who are no longer inclined homosexually. So I believe it is possible if you want to change.



See you are really focused on yourself here and missing the big picture. According to scripture, God is condemning about 80% of the population most likely. It's all who are not in the Lambs Book of Life. Which there are many non Christians... so your not a special minority to God. Just a sinner.

And Christians who point out your error aren't condemning you either. No body is stoning anybody like in the OT. It would not be loving to let you believe a deception.

I hope you can find peace. It must be difficult.


[edit on 7/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

The "Homosexual Christian" lobby has tried to paint Romans 1 as a Pagan ritual so the homosexuality is not condemed. Very weak. This is a deception and I am going to prove it.




OK there is a Paganism involved. But not just paganism. This is about "men who suppress the truth by their wickedness," from verse 18.



OK "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." is the paganism. But it is only part of what the "men who surpress the truth" do.

The main sin is atheism... they denying God in v19-20.

Now the next part contains the homosexuality. Note it is not part of the paganism it is part of the punishment for all of the above.



Because of unbelief in spite of God making it plain by his creation. Because of paganism... he gives them over to shameful lusts.

The shameful lusts follow:


So you can clearly see that the shameful lusts were not the ritual itself... they were a consequence of denying God and also from pagan worship.




[edit on 7/9/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by jakyll

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I woke up thinking about this. I think it sucks for you. I really do. I'm not trying to belittle you at all. I still don't think it's OK to live a Gay lifestyle and be a Christian. However if you are praying and seeking the Lord I don't think you are condemed. I believe you are sincere. We all struggle with something. Paul had a "thorn in his side" remember? Continue to ask God for help and wisdom.

The Bible also tells Christians to be of sober mind. Some struggle with this. I used to have a problem. I am clean and sober now thanks to Jesus Christ. Alcoholism isn't fair either. Some people can have fun with it and put it down and some become addicted to it quick and get in loads of trouble even die. It's very common. How long do you think it takes an alcoholic to feel normal after they try to stop drinking? Many years!

Some can't stop in spite of treatment and all kinds of help. I have an old friend pulling 17 years in prison for killing someone when he was driving drunk. They can choose to quit, to fight it, or die drunk or go to prison. It ain't fair. AA says surrendering your life to a Higher Power is the key. Real Surrender. Many do recover for life - by helping others mainly. But I have heard of in AA people that relapse after many years. The temptation is always there waiting. They say recovery from any addictive type behavior is based on the maintenance of your spiritual condition.

I hope you aren't offended by the analogy. But drunks can't help their predisposition to drink either. I thought it might help... everybody has a cross to bear and it never seems fair. Best wishes.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Must it?
Its my own take on the events,though i'm sure many gay and non gay sites have mentioned it too.
Just because 10 righteous men could not be found does not mean that the event describes gay men.You can be unrighteous without performing a gay sex act.Obviously the rape never happened,but this was the intent.I don't think the men of Sodom,if they had not been blinded,were gonna sweep the Angels off their feet in a whirl of romance followed by the act of making love;correction-making gang love.





I agree.But straight ppl do not get treated like gay ppl do in todays world.
Too many ppl see homosexuality as a disease,straight ppl who have sex before marriage are not seen in this way.You can be gay,still a virgin and ppl
would still see you as a walking "abomination."





Which is what i and many others are doing.But it doesn't change my sexuality.I'm still a lesbian.





I asked the question to get my Bishops opinion only,Obviously you couldn't have known its not because i'm focusing on myself.You raise an interesting point,similar to his.God is condemning 80% of the population.So why aren't they being treated like homosexuals are? If this was true then ppl should be more accepting of homosexuality.But there not.





Not in the least.I'm a recovering alcoholic myself.
And i know the difference between being addicted to something and being gay.They are not the same thing.An addiction is something that has to be satisfied everyday,as you know.But when i wasn't trying to live a chaste life i didn't need to have some kind of intimate or sexual contact with another woman on a daily or regular basis.



I think too many ppl forget that the Old Testament is originally Jewish scripture,and their interpretation on Sodom is not the same as the Christian.Would you say that their interpretation is wrong??


www.myjewishlearning.com...
www.iwgonline.org...
www.gaychristian101.com...
urj.org...
www.str.org...








[edit on 9-7-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by jakyll

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Just a brief reply as I'm in a hurry.


Holy cow! I've been trying to get this point across till I'm blue in the face. It's truly wonderful to be able to agree with you that prejudice against homosexual orientation, although often mistakenly associated with Biblical Christianity, is based on ignorance, bigotry, discrimination and is often also hypocrisy. (-Who among us has not experienced temptation to something forbidden by God?)

I went to some lengths to get this across in another thread here, for example.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy:

Reply by jakyll to post by Bigwhammey:

I understand that you are being honest with yourself here. However I'm inclined to encourage you to consider not identifying yourself too heavily in this way, any more than an unmarried person of heterosexual orientation thinks of themselves as a fornicator and/or adulterer just because they experience temptation/desire for intimacy before marriage. You are who you are - don't let other people's hang-ups bear too heavily on you.






[edit to add a subheading]

[edit on 9/7/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by jakyll

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Dear Jakyll

I suggest you to read the information that I provided in the links I mention in my previous post, that clearly shows that your condition is not contrary to Christianism, and why not to come to my thread in BTS that it is also open to this interesting discussion.

You can find it through my profile: www.abovetopsecret.com...

About the situation you described well there are many societies arround the world in which it is not socially bad looking but completely natural that people kiss people of his same genre, although not necesarily with sexual purposes, that is the case of Canada, and many countries of Europe like France, Hungary, Servia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Russia, Bielorus.

The kiss has a so strong sexual meaning just only in the Western hemisphere, but in other parts of the world is a gesture of friendship or any kind of love.

Also the fashion is another field in which we found similar situations:

The skirt is a cloth that can be used by men openly and it is part of social accepted costume in societies like Scotland, Ireland, Hawaii, all the Polinesia and Melanesia, All the Amazonic region of South America, and in the Indochina and Sri Lanka.

I would like to know what would be the opinion of important figures of the great civilizations of the past that used skirts in men for centuries if they could have opportunity to comeback to our time, like in a Time machine, that is the case of Greece, Rome, Cartago, Phoenicia, Ancient Persia, Ancient Egypt and Ancient Mesopotomia.

The same discussion can be in the long hair for men, how many important figures of the History used to have it?

JesusChrist, Alexander the Great, Athila, CarloMagno, Luis XIV, among all his succesors, Johann Sebastian Bach, Wolfang Amadeus Motzart, Isaac Newton, Leonardo Da vinci, Albert Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Rene Descartes, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz .

However there are still regions of America in which the puritanism makes the long hair as unaceptable for serious and reputed Gentlemen, on what basis??

There are many social customes and moral norms that are actually product of the hypocrecy or big misunderstandings transfered by one generation to the following.

Thanks to be so open in your comments here,

your friend,

The angel of Lightness



[edit on 7/9/2008 by The angel of light]

I kiss my cat all the time, it's an act of passion and love, not an expression of sexuality. But of course, I don't stick my tongue down it's throat...

reply to post by pause4thought

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Someone in my own church told some teenage girls that they shouldn't listen to bands like Queen because it would make them gay

Its incredible that in the 21st century ppl still come out with such insane and ignorant comments.

My reply to this woman was that,by her logic, if listening to Freddie Mercury sing can make you gay,then listening to someone like Bono would make gay ppl straight.Yet it doesn't.I wonder why.


A cpl of interesting quotes;

"We don't choose to be white or black,male or female,left-handed or right-handed,gay or straight.We awaken in each instance to the reality of what we are.Nothing external to our humanity activates our self-understanding.It simply is.Alcohol distorts life for the alcoholic. Homosexuality does not distort the life of the gay person.Your pastor's understanding is simply one more version of the idea that homosexuality is a sickness or addiction that needs to be cured if possible and if not possible,it needs to be suppressed.Wholeness never came to anyone who tried to suppress his or her deepest identity." John Shelby Spong.

reply to post by jakyll

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I agree: the idea music could have such an impact speaks more of prejudice than understanding.

I've really enjoyed agreeing with you. Prefer it, actually.

However...

...I find myself disagreeing with the (albeit far more cogent) argument from JS Spong. The views expressed are based on the unbiblical concept that if something is natural it must be OK. Based on this logic sex outside marriage ('fornication' in biblical terminology) and adultery would be just fine, whereas those who wrote the Old and New Testaments - and Christ Himself - all spoke of these unequivocally as sin.

Temptation to homosexual practice, and even homosexual desires themselves do not define a person's identity. What does - in biblical terms - is their attitude to God, to His ways and to their own sinful nature.

An essential element of the Christian life is taking a different attitude to natural, but sinful, desires and inclinations than those who are not seeking to follow Christ. We admit they are present, but learn to hate them in the light of the way they are repulsive to our Father in Heaven. Thus whereas before we enjoyed engaging in and feeding the sinful desires of our imagination, we now find them repulsive, preferring fellowship with God to whatever is contrary to his will.

Far from causing a person to deny their identity and make them depressed, this lifelong battle actually increasingly frees a person from their slavery to their natural, sinful desires and brings a satisfaction so deep no-one who has not experienced it can imagine it. It is those who indulge every lust, whim and desire that become disillusioned and often depressed as they sooner or later realise the promised bliss of 'self-fulfilment' is a deception.

Peace with your Maker = human fulfilment

As a person with heterosexual inclinations I had to fight lustful thoughts and desires, denying what seemed natural, until I got married. Thereafter I had to continue the battle in the mind and heart to stay faithful (which, in Christian terms, includes the thought-life even though no Christian achieves total perfection there). It goes without saying I had to refrain from actual sexual activity outside marriage, although true disciples of Christ increasingly realise they only find satisfaction and fulfilment in living God's way, so the desire to break God's commandments wanes - not least because every time you win a battle the natural inclinations of the heart become a little more aligned with God's own ways. In time a person with God's Spirit can more and more do whatever pleases them, because it is God's ways that please them! The desire to steal, lie, blaspheme, commit immorality, etc., is replaced with the desire to be like Christ.

A disciple of Christ with homosexual inclinations is also called to deny themselves what may seem natural: permitting and feeding lusts and desires in the thoughts and, outwardly, homosexual actions. But the same process described above enables them to increasingly win the battle in the mind and heart, which in turn leads to outward faithfulness and new desires. In time some true disciples of Christ with these temptations find they are replaced by desires for male-female marriage, which can be fulfilled in a God-honouring way. Others find the same level of satisfaction and ability to honour their Father in Heaven by remaining celibate - and this can be a very positive choice for them, freeing them to do things for others that would not be possible within the confines of marriage. (I'm sure you recognize that here, as elsewhere, I have specific passages of the New Testament in mind.)

Follow the Way, the Truth and the Life jakyll, and one day I'll see you up there, together with Christ and all who are His.








[edit on 9/7/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by jakyll

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I was being a smarty pants with the gay website quip. But I've seen it before and it's a distortion of the scripture.

You still missing the point I am afraid. The decision to destroy Sodom was made the day before the Angels went to the city. The NON rape event had nothing to do with why it was destroyed.

Quite frankly, it does not really say what the unrighteous acts are. You do have a point there. But the Angel thing is not valid as the reason why. I think it was really just a complete spirit of hedonism. Don't you?


I admire them for their struggle.

Hmmm as far as prejudice, seems like it's going the other way to me. It's pretty widely accepted in our culture. The sodomy laws have been repealed etc. And I have taken more flack as a Christian for speaking for the Bible position on this issue than anything else here at ATS. I was avoiding this thread because of that. It's not very PC to give the biblical position.



I still think it is a deception that you are stuck being inclined that way. I just believe the testimonies of folks who have changed. That doesn't mean its easy.



You must mean with in the body of believers? You can't look at Richard Dawkins and know hes an atheist. But too men kissing is obviously homosexual. So people notice it. Often Gays flaunt it. I think it scares people because it opposes the natural order toward procreation and family. But really its pretty accepted in the secular world.


Not everyone drinks everyday. Some are "binge" drinkers etc. But it is similar in that its a strong inclination that doesn't necessarily just go away. It causess problems but you do it anyway etc. You seem to be born that way. Even after years of abstinence if you pick it back up you are in the same mess quick.


I think Sodom was punished for utter depravity in all regards. Not just sexuality. Its a a valid point... but so what? It hardly matters in light of the many other scriptures that speak against it. Romans 1 is solid.

[edit on 7/9/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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The other famous scripture against homosexuality is taken from Leviticus.
Yet the abominations mentioned within it refer to that which is ritually unclean.These also include women during their menstural cycle,eating
with strangers,eating sheffish,eating pork etc.
And if you want to keep Leviticus 18:22 then you have to keep all the other laws mentioned in Leviticus,all 611 of them.Yet Christians don't,they say those laws are for the Jewish ppl only.That must mean then the law mentioned above must be just for the Jews only too!! Remember,we can't pick and choose which Divine Laws we want to follow.


Most Jewish scholars interpret the verse as being against anal sex between 2 men.Why? Because in this sexual act someone has to take the passive role-the role of the woman.And,as women were seen as being highly inferior to men,it would be unseemly for a man to submit to this position.Some Jewish scholars usually have verse 22 translated thus:"Do not lie with a man as if it were the same thing as lying with a woman." or "Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman."
Others see it like this:


If this is the case then the 1st mention of homosexuality is Romans,a book written some time between 51-57.AD.
This leads to an important conclusion.If this is the very 1st mention then this faith exited for 1000's of yrs with no mention of homosexuality being against God and nature.
Less than 300yrs before the book of Romans was written the Hebrews,
thanks to the conquests of Alexander the Great,came into direct contact with
the ppls of Greece.As we all know,most of Greece had a very liberal outlook
on homosexuality.The Hebrew state had existed peacefully for over 200yrs before the arrival of the Greeks and Macedonians and then it found itself caught in a power struggle once more between the Seleucid state with its capital in Syria to the north and the Ptolemaic state,with its capital in Egypt to the south.Once more,Judah would be conquered first by one,and then by the other, as it shifted from being a Seleucid vassal state to a Ptolemaic vassal state.Between 319 and 302 BC,Jerusalem changed hands seven times!

I'm sure the Jewish ppl had such hatred for the Greeks & Macedonians.
They were more foreign than any group they had ever seen. In a state founded on maintaining the purity of the Hebrew religion, the gods of the Greeks seemed wildly offensive. In a society rigidly opposed to the exposure of the body, the Greek practice of wrestling in the nude and deliberately dressing light must have been appalling.Some Greek states also had liberal
attitudes to women,no doubt this would've been highly disaproved of by the Jews.And,like the Catholics did to other cultures,i'm sure that many Jews will have demonized the Greeks,their religion and their sexual practises and their
social attitudes.

Is it so far fetched to see a connection between the Jews (and early Christians) 1st contact with the Greeks and their changing attitude to homosexuality? I don't think so.

reply to post by pause4thought

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As the Bible does not condemn gay marriage,do you think it acceptable for gay men or women to marry?

Just curious.Most gay ppl have different attitudes.I know some who don't agree with it at all and then others who believe they have every right to do so.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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I agree.
And i'm sure at some point i've had a go at you as well.lol.

I do admire ppl who stand by their beliefs tho,after all,as Jesus says;if you don't deny him he won't deny you to God.

But i also believe that a religion has to change with the times.It can keep its core beliefs and laws and still do this.

You have to ask yourself one question;should religious tolerance stand in the
way of social attitudes?

If you think about it,and the answer is no,then wouldn't women still be in a state where they are "kept" by their fathers and then their husbands,a state of submission,a state where free will is denied.Wouldn't ppl still be using Bible verses that talk of wicked/sinful ppls skin becoming dark as an excuse to be cruel to black,asian,oriental etc?

God is not condemning anybody he is givning the man a choice whether he wants to follow him or not... God does not condemn or damn he lets man do it to himself

reply to post by jakyll

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What I think, as such, makes no difference. What the Maker and Judge of every one of us thinks is all that matters. Scripture as a whole, and Jesus in person, are all in agreement that sex outside male-female marriage is immorality. Before marriage it is referred to as fornication; after marriage it is referred to as adultery.

Those who experience homosexual temptation are not singled out, as I have pointed out repeatedly. I went to some lengths to explain this here, (on page 14,) for example.

I will just add that I greatly respect your decision to live a celibate lifestyle. Keep in mind that this is no second-rate option: the Lord himself practiced it, and spoke of the ability to live this way for the sake of the kingdom of God as a high calling - it is a gift that few posses.