Does the bible condemn homosexuality?, page 12

reply to post by pause4thought

---

wow just checked out the links.. very interesting read..

[edit on 18-5-2008 by scorand]

reply to post by skyshow

---

Maybe he/she is legitimately curious as to WHAT the Bible teaches in Hebrew and Greek.
It spurs discusion, which can be enlightening.

reply to post by Clearskies

---

I guess...and I try to understand, but you know, we have a fascist regime now here in the US, a global energy crisis creeping up on us, along with a food crisis looming, global warming, bees disappearing, polar bears going extinct, ice melting, temperatures climbing, glaciers melting, economic hardship, famine on the horizon, no health care for hundreds of millions world wide, massive corruption at the top of nearly all the world's governments, and 9 nations armed with 26,000 nuclear bombs ready to be fired off at a moment's notice, and this God that these people keep talking about either abandoned us thousands of years ago, asleep on the job, or never actually existed in the first place. Here we sit on the brink of death and destruction and they want to argue if having an orgasm with another consenting adult be it male or female is in congruency with the scriptures? huh?

If they are so freakin' altruistic, how about mobilizing some support to help us with the REAL problems we face instead of trying to project bigotry through the so called "word"!

No, the whole reason this thread exists, is to use the last freakin’ straw available to drum up support for an agenda that is aimed at creating hatred and discontent with the real purpose (I doubt even most of them even realise it) to mobilize support on the right for political purposes, and the sad thing, is that they try to do this in the name of Jesus. I find it completely disgusting and the definition of wickedness. These folks should be ashamed of themselves!




[edit on 18-5-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow

---

I'm sorry, but what is the point of this thread anyway?

To discover what the Bible says about a subject that has a major impact on some people's lives. If you dislike what the Bible says, that is another subject.

Do you think people who read this are going to suddenly quit being gay or heterosexual?

Some people hear Christ's claims to be the Son of God, weigh them up very seriously, and believe. Sometimes those people have committed adultery or other sexual relations outside of God's moral Law. Those who become convinced that Christ and the Gospel he brought are true have to chose to follow the very difficult path of sexual purity (either celibacy or life-long commitment to a single male-female marriage) if they wish to become his disciples. That is what Christ taught - it makes no difference what people say.

The path is difficult for those of any orientation. The power to master one's cravings is available, though, to all who truly believe and follow Christ. Once they have confessed their sins to God and left them at the foot of the Cross by believing the Gospel they receive the Holy Spirit. This power is real and wonderfully transforming.

The issues faced by those of homosexual orientation are not underestimated by the Church, but they lie in the same realm of temptation as is experienced by all Christ's disciples. The fact that those who have been transformed by God's power can, and do overcome homosexual desires is attested here , for example.

It just takes up space and causes us to be distracted from actual reality

No, I'm afraid there is a reality you were unaware of: faith in Christ can transform people to the core and enable them to overcome desires which dishonour their Maker.

Who the hell cares. We have bigger problems people!

I care, and so do many other forgiven sinners who now follow Christ's Way. Many who have practiced homosexuality have had difficulties with their mental health as a consequence, and knowing how many have been freed from such things by the Gospel we share this knowledge openly - because we care.








[edit to correct spacing]

[edit on 18/5/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

---

Good post, and much closer to the truth, then what has been posted so far.
We are not under the old law, and that law is not divisible into moral and ritual or symbolic laws. Where would you put the 4th commandment, to keep the sabbath!
Also Paul said if you are under any part of the old law, then you must keep it all!
Teaching false Bible doctrine. Is even a worse sin then sexual sins.
Jesus gave clear examples of how the just live, make decisions and choices that were sometimes against the Law, but are justified by the higher laws of heaven. Laws that aren't written down. But are living. Especially the law of (mercy). Which all to many selfrighteous Christians
forget. Jesus said mercy was the heart of the law.
Paul's argument, (in part, for he spent much of his writing on the subject)
against being under the old law, including the moral laws, is following.

1Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[a] just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[c] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[

Acts 13"39-41 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from (everything) you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.'[f]"

However many of the 10 commandments were echoed by Christ teachings, especially by the 2 commands love God, love your Nieghbour.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

---

Yes, all the other laws hung on the first two. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Love your brother as yourself".

If you are keeping the first two, it is possible to sometimes be breaking
the lessor laws, that hang on the first two. The law's of Moses are not perfect. (except that they lead us to Christ), Because a written law that covers every possible scenario, cannot be composed. The world couldn't even contain that many books. We are supposed to be born again, washed clean, and able to judge every act on an individual basis. "the spiritual man judgeth all things, and is judged of no man".
That being said. The commandments are a pretty good guide, to good living.

reply to post by Howie47

---

We are not under the old law, and that law is not divisible into moral and ritual or symbolic laws...

I will not presume to call you a false teacher in the way you have me. The confusion you have on this issue is not uncommon.

The ceremonial Law - the types and symbols (laws on food, clothing, etc.) ceremonies and sacrifices all pointed forward to Christ and are therefore fulfilled and no longer valid.

The moral Law still stands - not so we can try and make ourselves righteous, but so we can know how to live God's way, to thank Him for His forgiveness through the Gospel. This is the freedom we are under in the New Covenant - those who are truly born again have no fear of not being good enough for God to accept them.

You said, on page 3 of this thread:

Christian's are no longer under the old law, even the 10 commandments.

Let us therefore examine the force of your position on this matter. According to your clearly-stated position Christians are not commanded and obliged by God to:

1) Have no Gods before the Lord. Consequently they are free to worship other Gods.

2) Not make or worship idols. Consequently they can make or worship idols.

3) Not misuse the name of the Lord God. Consequently they can misuse God's name.

4) Keep one day out of seven holy. Consequently there is no need for a day of rest and worship.

5) Honour their father and mother. Consequently they can dishonour and disobey their parents.

6) Not murder. Consequently they can commit murder.

7) Not commit adultery. Consequently they can commit sexual sin.

8) Not steal. Consequently they can steal.

9) Not bear false testimony. Consequently they can lie.

10) Not covet other people's house or wife. Consequently they can covet other people's house or wife.

You have just added a post to say

The commandments are a pretty good guide

Guidelines are guides, but can be ignored; commandments are laws requiring consequences for the lawbreaker. Anyone who says Christians can break the ten commandments with impunity is teaching their own ideas, not the Bible. God therefore disciplines believers who foolishly err, but sincerely repent - cf. David and Hebrews 12:6.

Those who are born again delight in the commandments and find great joy in seeking to worship God through keeping them from the heart. It is called sanctification.

I fear one reason you hold on to the idea that they are no longer valid is because you agree with consequence no.7 - you seek to justify sex outside a male-female marriage.

Your position is

a) internally inconsistent - firstly you say Christians are not under God's Law, even the 10 commandments, then you imply we need them.

b) externally inconsistent with what Christ and the apostles taught:

Jesus in Matthew 5:17a:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law...

...God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one [i.e. Jew & Gentile are forgiven and accepted through faith in the Cross of Christ]. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

Romans 3:29-31

Paul is saying that Christians keep the Mosaic moral Law of God because they love God who has redeemed them - it is established in the New Covenant era because Christians keep it through the power of the Holy Spirit (not perfectly, but according to the extent they live by the Spirit).

Your confusion has arisen because the Scriptures teach that we no longer need outward symbols like circumcision (being born again is circumcision of the heart) and avoiding foodstuffs and leaven (because we avoid sinful activities and turn away from sin in the heart).

You have also shown confusion over the issue Paul had with Peter. It was very simple: Peter was reverting to keeping Jewish customs - i.e. the ceremonial laws. He was discriminating between those outwardly circumcised and those who were not. Paul had to remind him that these had been fulfilled and abolished.

Peter's vision also related to foods now being clean, but the deeper meaning is given in the context: God now accepts those who believe the Gospel and turn from lawless behaviour (i.e. repentance), even Gentiles. That is why he received the vision before being sent to preach to Gentiles (who already believed in God!) but whom Peter would have separated himself from as ceremonially unclean under the Old Covenant.

Also Paul said if you are under any part of the old law, then you must keep it all!

Look at the context: he was saying 'Those who circumcise themselves have to keep all the laws about how to wash, dress, cut their hair, and even perform sacrifices! We have been freed from that: Christ has fulfilled the symbols and we no longer need them. We now live in the reality.

Is the Mosaic moral Law abrogated, as you suggest? No - as Paul (and Christ!) make clear - it stands and is established by Christian living.

As to what you say about us living by laws not written down, I know what you are saying: we are motivated and guided by the commandment to love God and our fellow human beings. But this is not in conflict with God's moral law - it leads to us fulfilling it!

You specifically asked about the fourth commandment. Yes, how we keep it now is viewed in different ways, and it does at first sight appear anachronistic. But listen to what Christ said:

...whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven.

Gospel of Matthew 5:19

Did He also say anything about how long they are valid? -

I assure you: Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the Law...

You made an assertion about 'self-righteous' Christians. If you read my posts you will only find me referring to myself as a sinner, a forgiven sinner, an abject sinner, a sinner like the next man. Your implication that teaching repentance from homosexual sin means we lack mercy is as unbiblical as saying teaching repentance from adultery shows a lack of mercy.

You claim to live under God's grace. Do you have the grace to reconsider your position?


[edited punctuation]

[edit on 18/5/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by pause4thought

---

"Cherry Picking" is what your doing with Paul's and My arguments. I don't expect to convert you from your churches doctrine.
The references that both I and "the truth" have provided, are very clear for all to read. Chose to ignore them and thier warnings againts false teaching, if you must.
However here is one final reference to protect all readers from the
bondage you teach.
Gal 5:
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is (obligated to obey the whole law). 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

P.S. The opposite of not being under the old law is not lawlessness. As
you suggest. Christians are made clean and born again of God's Spirit. (
Which is the spirit of love and light.) We know right from wrong by God's Spirit. As I quoted before. "as many as that lead of the Spirit of God, are the Sons of God". If you are lead by anything else, then you are not yet a Son of God. You are still under the tutor. "The Law" and not under "Grace".

[edit on 18-5-2008 by Howie47]

[edit on 18-5-2008 by Howie47]

I assure you: Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the Law...

reply to post by pause4thought

---

This is a good warning, that all who say we are still under the Law, should take heed too. If you haven't received God's Grace. You are
still under the Law and it's curses! Only receiving Jesus Christ as your
one and only savior, can you be freed from the curse of the Law.

reply to post by Howie47

---

You are still under the tutor. "The Law" and not under "Grace".

How wrong you are!!

Nearly 30 years ago I became convicted of my sin through studying the life of Christ - the only man who ever kept the Law of God in full. I cried out to God for mercy, often with tears. Believing my sins had all been paid for by Christ on the Cross I was freed from the Law of sin and death (the principle that if I sin I will suffer eternal consequences), was baptised, and have had peace in my conscience ever since.

Since then my life has been one of worshiping God in the joy of the Holy Spirit, through many severe trials. I proclaim God's free gift of redemption, mercy, grace, love - and a thousand other ways of putting it - to as many as I am able, by God's grace.

I also teach that God's true children - those who have been born again, as Christ explained in John chapter 3 - express their love for God by keeping his commandments. You turn a blind eye to Christ's words and the words of Scripture on this matter, continuing to insist Christians can ignore God's commandments, with all the consequences I outlined in my previous post.

Christ and the apostles could not have taught against this more clearly. You continue to ignore what I quoted in my previous post, which condemns lawlessness with 100% unambiguity.

I'll revert back to what I said earlier:

This is what Jesus said he will say to those who claim to be his followers but ignore God's Law:

"I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

Jesus in Matthew 7:23b

..."they will gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness."

Matthew 13:41b

I could provide many more such examples. As far as God is concerned the moral Law of God still stands in its entirety, and God requires that his people seek to live by it - to thank him for the Cross, not to justify themselves!

This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," without keeping His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:3&4

Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.

Revelation 14:12

What then is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It is the promise of eternal life in Heaven through repentance from lawlessness in response to the message of the Cross, with God's Spirit washing and cleansing the soul:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolitors, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Revelation 22:14&15

Has anyone noticed how those who are left outside Heaven specifically have lives characterised by breaking the ten commandments? Read the second sentence again!

Those who practice lawlessness, who have no regard for God's Law are not able to enter Heaven. That is because they never repented, even though they claimed to have believed the Gospel.

Those who call themselves Christians but disregard God's commands are described as 1) liars 2) those who commit lawlessness and 3) those whom Christ never knew.

Why?

Because they were never born again!

They never 'washed their robes' (washed away their sins through the blood of Christ's sacrifice of Himself), and were never in possession of God's promises regarding eternal life.

Howie: what you are saying is becoming clearer and clearer with your every post. In order to say homosexual practice is not condemned in the Bible you reject the Law of God. Here are the consequences:

1) Your position is logical. God's commandments forbid sex outside male-female marriage.

2) According to the New Testament teaching of Christ and the apostles you are teaching (and, I expect practising) lawlessness - a sign of not knowing Christ. You are also a teacher of this doctrine, and therefore a stumbling block. You are not one of God's people (a 'saint', a sinner who has been made holy through Christ's forgiveness and receipt of the Holy Spirit). You have the promise of being left outside Heaven, unless you turn from such ungodly teaching (and, doubtless, behaviour).

Point 2 is based entirely on what the Scriptures I have quoted say about practising lawlessness. You fit the bill, sadly, according to your own words.

You offer a Gospel without repentence, without turning from sin (breaking God's moral Law) and therefore are defined in 1 John as a liar, a false Christian.

How sad that it is necessary to face you with this in public.

reply to post by pause4thought

---

The word "lawlessness", (iniquity KJV) is used to try and communicate a
spiritual ideal to carnal man. A better definition for iniquity is wickedness. Unsaved people have a hard time understanding what is wicked. So God gave us the law to try and teach and bring us to know the difference. Once you know the difference, you no longer need the teacher. You make the mistake that many make.
They think that the 10 commandments and all it's underlying laws, are the highest law that ever was or every will be. Jesus showed a much greater and truer light then Moses. You just can't make the jump from carnal minded understanding to spiritual understanding.

reply to post by skyshow

---

yes we do.. but we have to take into account where and how these leaders came to be.. they make a lot of the same claims that a lot of christians claim.. and use it to push their agenda.. its called manipulation of the public.. and they use dogma to sway public opinion.. however they also use discusions like this to create enough diversion to push their money grubbing greed to get what they want..and if that dont work they do what bushi jr did and just take it anyway.. and yes the bible is used by them to justify what they do...just like with the native americans back in the day so they could take the land.. its nothing new, they are also useing the debate over same sex marriage.. but what a lot of people dont realize is that being aloud to marry wont hurt the institution of marriage, it will in all probability stop church dogma from condeming gays. thats why so many r putting up such a fit about it.. { idont mean the posters here,, well maby one or two. i mean the church.. its all about controll of the people.}they dont want it found out that it is just dogma...and untill we root out the source and see it for what it is we will continue to fall for their crap again and again..

reply to post by Howie47

---

true but in the ten commandments it doesnt say thou shalt not have a same sex partner

"God is an Imaginary Friend" Athiest Billboards in Denver-
  Posted 19 days ago with 31 member flags

Why are these 10 figures just like Jesus Christ??
  Posted 6 days ago with 14 member flags

What if all the major religions started out with the same story and it slowly diverged from there
  Posted 8 days ago with 11 member flags

I am an imposter in Church
  Posted 5 days ago with 11 member flags

What Kind of Christianity Is This?
  Posted 17 days ago with 7 member flags

The Great Flood Was Caused By A Comet?
  Posted 12 days ago with 7 member flags

Advert claiming cure through prayer is banned
  Posted 6 days ago with 7 member flags

The real Jewish people. Torah Jews Against ZIONISM
  Posted 14 days ago with 6 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: