Does the bible condemn homosexuality?

The Hebrew lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon; this is keyed to the "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament." These files are considered public domain:

To'ebah

1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

Hebrew: ואיש אשר ישכב את־זכר משכבי אשה תועבה עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם׃

English: It's unethical for a man to ritually have sex with a man. It's abominable and they must be put to death for their sin against the blood.

[edit on 17/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

[edit on 17/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


So that's it man?

In the face of Scriptures from Jude, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Revelation, etc., etc., all quoted as clearly stating that those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kingdom of God, that's all you've got left to justify this thread?!

Someone who is not an expert in Hebrew telling us about an O.T. word having a supposedly more subtle meaning than generations of Hebrew scholars have concluded.

Admit defeat.

[edit to change hilarious spelling mistake!]

[edit on 17/5/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

So that's it man?

In the face of Scriptures from Jude, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Revelation, etc., etc., all quoted as clearly stating that those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kongdom of God, that's all you've got left to justify this thread?!

Someone who is not an expert in Hebrew telling us about an O.T. word having a supposedly more subtle meaning than generations of Hebrew scholars have concluded.

Admit defeat.

Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 "What is it you want?" he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom." 22 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

If even Jesus is unable to say who will enter the Kingdom of God, how are you somehow able?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


That was in reference to Zebedee's son's RULING with Jeshua.
Even the thief on the cross was told;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Of Course He knows (by looking at the heart) who is worthy....

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

So that's it man?

In the face of Scriptures from Jude, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Revelation, etc., etc., all quoted as clearly stating that those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kingdom of God, that's all you've got left to justify this thread?!

Someone who is not an expert in Hebrew telling us about an O.T. word having a supposedly more subtle meaning than generations of Hebrew scholars have concluded.

Admit defeat.

[edit to change hilarious spelling mistake!]

[edit on 17/5/08 by pause4thought]

What are the Greek and Hebrew words for homophilia that you refer to as immoral and that people who are gay are doomed to be burnt on the fire. I.e. will not enter the Kingdom. Who are you to judge and decide who will enter the Kingdom of God? Set people free and you may be set free yourself, don't judge and you will not be condemned. God will judge and Jesus will execute. Mind your step here, mind the gap...

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

That was in reference to Zebedee's son's RULING with Jeshua.
Even the thief on the cross was told;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Of Course He knows (by looking at the heart) who is worthy....

The Zebedees simply wanted to sit on either side of Jesus in his kingdom, not to rule. If you read the next couple of words you can read that Jesus says he can't let anyone in to the Kingdom. Only God, the Father can decide who will enter the Kingdom.

And the person on the cross wasn't granted access to Paradise. Jesus says that "what has happened here today" will enter with me into Paradise. Read a correct translation.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I may be detecting a note of humility here, I grant you that. I am not interested in defeating anyone in some triumphalist sense, but rather in leading people to faith in Christ and Biblical repentance, which leads to Christ's promise of forgiveness and eternal life.

My confidence that I am forgiven is based entirely on Christ's promises.

I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgement but has passed from death to life.

Gospel of John 5:24

"I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life."

Gospel of John 6:47

As Christ Himself repeatedly made clear, the faith He has in mind is only the type that leads to repentance from the natural way of life (whereby a person essentially lives for the gratification of fleshly desires), and turns to live by God's Law to thank and glorify and Him. This is why He said:

..."I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Gospel of John 3:3,5&6

"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:38

God first forgives, then gives the power to leave behind the old, natural life whereby we were slaves to our cravings. He plants a new heart and new desires within, and enables us to hate the things that formerly controlled us.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordenances.

(God speaking in Ezekiel 36:26&27)

This is where every Christian starts their journey. The man in my avatar is pointing someone to the cross. "You feel the burden of your sin before God, go and lay it down at the Cross," he says, in love.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life."

John 3:14&15

As Jesus said, when introducing people to the Gospel,

Repent [which means turn your life in the opposite direction], because the kingdom of Heaven has come near

Gospel of Matthew 4:17

And as you know, all are invited.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Who are you to judge and decide who will enter the Kingdom of God?

I can't and I don't in the sense you mean. Ultimately I don't know who truly belives and has truly repented. There are hypocrites who say one thing and do another in secret. However God does not leave us guessing as to what true repentance means, and I, and others, just proclaim what He has said.

This is how Christians regard other people. It is not a spirit of judgement, but of 'Have you received God's mercy through faith in the Cross and being born again?'

From now on, then, we do not know anyone in a purely human way. Even if we have known Christ in a purely human way, yet now we no longer know Him like that. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come.

Now everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ; certain that God is appealing through us, we plead on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God."

He made the One who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21

Sharing the Good News is not being judgmental, even though it does involve saying "You are a sinful person, the same as me". It is actually being reconciliatory - between God and man, vicariously.








[edit for typing error]

[edit on 17/5/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Who are you to judge and decide who will enter the Kingdom of God?

I can't and I don't in the sense you mean.

Your own words condemn you. You said:

Originally posted by pause4thought
those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kingdom of God

As for defeat, taste the green grass!

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

I may be detecting a note of humility here, I grant you that. I am not interested in defeating anyone in some triumphalist sense, but rather in leading people to faith in Christ and Biblical repentance, which leads to Christ's promise of forgiveness and eternal life.

My confidence that I am forgiven is based entirely on Christ's promises.

I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgement but has passed from death to life.

Gospel of John 5:24

"I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life."

Gospel of John 6:47

As Christ Himself repeatedly made clear, the faith He has in mind is only the type that leads to repentance from the natural way of life (whereby a person essentially lives for the gratification of fleshly desires), and turns to live by God's Law to thank and glorify and Him. This is why He said:

..."I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Gospel of John 3:3,5&6

"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:38

God first forgives, then gives the power to leave behind the old, natural life whereby we were slaves to our cravings. He plants a new heart and new desires within, and enables us to hate the things that formerly controlled us.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordenances.

(God speaking in Ezekiel 36:26&27)

This is where every Christian starts their journey. The man in my avatar is pointing someone to the cross. "You feel the burden of your sin before God, go and lay it down at the Cross," he says, in love.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life."

John 3:14&15

As Jesus said, when introducing people to the Gospel,

Repent [which means turn your life in the opposite direction], because the kingdom of Heaven has come near

Gospel of Matthew 4:17

And as you know, all are invited.

Why are you flooding me with self rightious squabble. Will you enter the Kingdom in your opinion? My guess is that if any of us are to enter we will lack eyes and hands and be humbled and even humiliated to the utmost effect. We will wish we were rather dead than having to live in the light of God. I am a sinner and will need to be pardoned for many things. But one thing is certain: I have never sacrificed myself to Ba'al or worshipped a golden calf, and none of my gay friends have either as far as I know...

As usual like any other thread that has to do with controversial issues in relation to the morality of humans and the bible this leaning into preaching.

Now lets go back to the original OP and its historical significance.

While the bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality, it does condemn fornication, Paul in “Romans 1" talks about un natural acts, but what Paul refers here are the worshiping of Idols ( man ) rather than God, this could be call “lust” this is when fornication comes into play.

As man and woman lives can be surrounded by lust and driven by sex and forget God, this in turn will lead to un natural acts against God.

During the times of Paul historically the temples used to worship the “Gods” were full of prostitutes, male and female.

Paul does not specify what that unnatural sexual conduct is, but it is something not natural for those that have made sex their God.

As the case of of pederasty that was widely practiced in those times.

Also historically heterosexual men were engaged into sexual acts against other heterosexual mens as a mean of humiliation after battle.

As we know sodomy were also used forcibly on women throughout history during rape.

Remember that Paul in his teachings was trying to make the hateful pagans guilty of their way of worshiping their Gods.

While making the list of sin that good worshiping Christians should avoid to differentiate themselves from the pagans of the times.

Worshiping God first unconditionally, any other way of worshiping was sinful.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Your own words condemn you. You said:

Originally posted by pause4thought:

those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kingdom of God

No, God's words, not mine, condemn homosexual sex:

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom...

1 Corinthians 6:9&10

Homosexual sex is sin. Argue with what God has said if you will, but it will not help you when you stand before Him, much less the fact that you have taught others the opposite of what Scripture says.

The very next sentence continuing from the above quote leaves us in no doubt that those who have practiced homosexual sex can be cleansed, forgiven, and given a new heart that wants to abide by God's Law:

...Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:11

No-one, however, can claim to have truly received God's forgiveness and at the same time continue in an immoral lifestyle, whether it be adultery, homosexual sex or anything else outlined in the Scripture above or anywhere else:

What should we say then? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may multiply? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?..

...in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in a new way of life

Romans 6:1,2&4b

It is not those who experience homosexual attraction that need to turn from it - some Christians can still struggle with it in the same way others can struggle with temptation to heterosexual activity outside marriage - but those who have given in to their desires in their minds and/or committed corresponding acts.

I explained this at length
here.

All who read this please note: I am not singling out homosexual sex as worse than, say, adultery, rape or any other sex outside marriage. I am merely responding to the theme of this thread, and I have made it abundantly clear throughout that Christ invites all to turn from sin, believe, and enter His kingdom now, and in the life hereafter.







[edit to revise quotation marks]

[edit on 17/5/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Your own words condemn you. You said:

Originally posted by pause4thought:

those who practice homosexual sex will not enter the kingdom of God

No, God's words, not mine, condemn homosexual sex:

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom...

1 Corinthians 6:9&10

Now where in the Greek text do you find a word translating into homosexuals? I'll help you: Arsenokoites, and it refers to "men lying down", this refers to the law of Leviticus 20:13 and is about idol worship/Ba'alism and ritual fornication between men. It is often translated into homosexual because the church interpret the Law incorrectly to fit church doctrine and dogma.

You also find this word in 1 Timothy, and there it is connected to unsound doctrine/ritual which is correct. How can anyone do a doctrinal sin except in relation to religious rituals.

[edit on 17/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


You are, sadly, still reading into the text what is not there in order to fit it to your agenda.

This comes from the scholarly (1,326-page) IVP New Bible Dictionary:

In 1 Cor. 6:9f. practicing homosexuals are included among the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God... [then, referring to the list of sinful behaviour in this passage:] ...the whole list represents an updated version of the Ten Commandments. Paul parallels the 7th commandment (on adultery) with a reference to 'immoral persons' (pornoi) and and 'sodomites' ['homosexuals' in my translation] (arsenokoitai), words which cover all sexual intercourse outside marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual...

...It has been suggested that the meaning of arsenikoites in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 may be restricted to that of 'male prostitute' (cf. Vulgate masculi concubitores). Linguistic evidence to support this view is lacking, however... It seems beyond reasonable doubt that Paul intended to condemn homosexual conduct (but not homosexual people) in the most general and theologically broad terms he knew... As Creator, Law-Giver and King, the Lord's condemnation of such behaviour was absolutely plain.

NCM: I have come to expect you will reject any such evidence, as it goes against your agenda. Other, more fair-minded readers might see that here, as elsewhere, you are merely clutching at straws.

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

You are, sadly, still reading into the text what is not there in order to fit it to your agenda.

This comes from the scholarly (1,326-page) IVP New Bible Dictionary:

In 1 Cor. 6:9f. practicing homosexuals are included among the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God... [then, referring to the list of sinful behaviour in this passage:] ...the whole list represents an updated version of the Ten Commandments. Paul parallels the 7th commandment (on adultery) with a reference to 'immoral persons' (pornoi) and and 'sodomites' ['homosexuals' in my translation] (arsenokoitai), words which cover all sexual intercourse outside marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual...

...It has been suggested that the meaning of arsenikoites in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 may be restricted to that of 'male prostitute' (cf. Vulgate masculi concubitores). Linguistic evidence to support this view is lacking, however... It seems beyond reasonable doubt that Paul intended to condemn homosexual conduct (but not homosexual people) in the most general and theologically broad terms he knew... As Creator, Law-Giver and King, the Lord's condemnation of such behaviour was absolutely plain.

NCM: I have come to expect you will reject any such evidence, as it goes against your agenda. Other, more fair-minded readers might see that here, as elsewhere, you are merely clutching at straws.

Paul wasn't a lawgiver, he was a Jew refering to the Law of Israel the Torah of God, and it doesn't condemn homosexuals, only sex between men in a ritual, unethical sense. Are you saying that we should take Paul's words in higher conduct than Jesus who told us not to condemn and to treat people with love and compassion? Should Paul's words weigh in heavier than the very words of God himself who says men lying layings of women are committing abominations if ritually performed?

It's quite paradoxal that Paul, the very person who says the Law and circumcision is abolished, cite laws in the Torah condemning people to hell.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

The Hebrew lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon; this is keyed to the "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament." These files are considered public domain:


To'ebah

1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)


Hebrew: ואיש אשר ישכב את־זכר משכבי אשה תועבה עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם׃

English: It's unethical for a man to ritually have sex with a man. It's abominable and they must be put to death for their sin against the blood.


It appears your entire argument of 'ritual sense' boils down to you using To'ebah to suit your needs.

ethical: of wickedness, is also 'a disgusting thing' and used in the context of sexual immorality.

As a reader of this forum, I have seen nothing but an openly gay person disseminating the word (including lexicon definitions) to rationalise his own sin. And if we use the Word to defend our position then you attack the very word.

2 Tim 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Therefore after study of the Word...

Cor 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

...I will trust the Lord

~Siit~

P.S Apologies for ignorance and possible breach of posting protocol... my first time.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Paul wasn't a lawgiver, he was a Jew refering to the Law of Israel the Torah of God

...And why was he referring to it? -Because it still stands, which is what I have been saying all along, quoting Christ and the apostles who left absolutely no room for ambiguity on this matter. E.g. where Christ said:

Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy... whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Gospel of Matthew 5:17a&19b

As to the status of Paul's writings, it is only ever questioned by those who don't like what he wrote. That is because they have to contend with the commendations he receives from Christ and the apostles:

In and of himself, Paul was an ordinary person. Yet Paul was chosen by Christ as an apostle (lit. 'sent one' or 'one who has been commissioned'):

...this man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before Gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel.

Acts 9:15b

Do the apostles' writings somehow have lesser status than those of Moses, as you clearly imply?

...God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:20

This is how true Christians, true believers in and disciples of Christ, study what God has revealed and grow in grace:

...they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayers.

Acts 2:42

Here is the testimony of the Apostle Peter:

...our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you. He speaks about these things in all his letters, in which are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures...

2 Peter 3:15c-16

All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

You really ought to simply admit that you don't necessarily accept what Moses, Christ or the apostles wrote rather than teaching people to believe the opposite of what they said. But then again, you would have to drop the agenda...

It's quite paradoxal that Paul, the very person who says the Law and circumcision is abolished, cite laws in the Torah condemning people to hell.

No. Paul is not contradicting himself at all. Rather than presuming this you ought to question whether you have understood his teachings.

As has already been demonstrated, the New Testament, including Paul's writings, teaches that the ceremonial Law is no longer needed as it consisted of symbols of Christ and what He was to achieve in giving His life for sinners. Circumcision was a sign that tied the initiate to adherence to all those ceremonial laws about food and clothing and the whole animal-based sacrificial system.

The only aspects of the moral Law - the Ten Commandments and the many others which simply expand on their meaning - which are no longer valid are:

1) the enforcement of the code of legal penalties, as believers are no longer expected to be part of a theocracy, as was the case in O.T. times, where being a believer largely equated to living as a Jew and living under the Jewish legal system

2) any reliance on fulfilling the moral Law to become acceptable to God, as this can only happen through faith in the Cross of Christ. (This was, incidentally, the case in O.T. times: the ceremonies, sacrifices and the words of the prophets all pointed forward to the Cross and the Lamb of God upon it - living by the Law was just supposed to be an expression of that faith - which is why Jesus Christ is the perfect fulfilment of the entire Jewish religion, in terms of its Scriptures, ceremonies and sacrifices).

The moral Law of God was never set aside. You can only continue to make that claim in the face of unnumbered New Testament passages, many of which have been laid out in this thread.

The fact is, you reject the teaching of the Scriptures.


I wish to address another issue you raised in a previous post on this page:

Will you enter the Kingdom in your opinion?

As I have already explained using Christ's words, I entered God's kingdom 28 years ago by turning from a life controlled by my natural cravings to live for God, because I have believed the Gospel and received Christ's promises of forgiveness and eternal life. If He had not wanted his true disciples to have this confidence He would not have given them these promises.

If I die tonight I will be in Christ's kingdom, because I am, through faith, a forgiven sinner. That's why the Scripture talks about Christians being filled with inner peace, and joy inexpressible. We have inherited the promises of eternal life! As a gift!

My guess is that if any of us are to enter we will lack eyes and hands and be humbled and even humiliated to the utmost effect. We will wish we were rather dead than having to live in the light of God. I am a sinner and will need to be pardoned for many things.

If we humbly confess our sins to Him here and now He will accept us there and then, because Christ has borne the penalty we deserve. (That's why the Jewish legal system was not transferred to the Christian Church.) Now, when we confess our sins, alone with God, the required legal punishment is accounted to the Cross.

You said you were a sinner and needed pardon for many things. Hold on to that thought... then think about the Cross. Keep on thinking and confessing in its light, and God will pardon you. Christ's teaching was written down so we could possess that assurance.

What you said about wishing we were dead is the right attitude in God's light. But don't let it keep you from coming to Him now, as it does with many people. Jesus said:

...everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.

Gospel of John 3:20

Once your burden of guilt has been laid at the Cross this reverses!

Every time a Christian prays he longs for God's light, His holy presence, to draw near.

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.

James 4:8a

reply to post by pause4thought


Sodomy is the biggest BS word in our language.

"Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." -Ezekiel 16:49-50

Their sin was not homosexuality, so it is completely irresponsible for you to turn 'sodomites' into 'homosexuals'. Those are Jesus' own words, plain and simple.

reply to post by pause4thought


Again, is not the homosexuals the ones condemn in the bible but the act of fornication by men and women both and mostly by heterosexuals.

Plain and simple, you can never take away the historical facts of the time over the widely misinterpreted quotes in the bible more often than not to further religious agendas to promote modern persecution against homosexuals.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Sorry for the late reply, but somehow this thread didn't catch my eye as having been updated lately.

I found it particularly interesting that this was new info to you! I hope you read and consider what some of us are saying in response to the anti-gay claims. Those links that were posted for the other threads would be good too. Definitely good exposure to both sides of the coin.

Believe me, I read and listen to everything that is said when I enter a debate. The reason I have not heard of this before is that 1) I am about as straight as I think a man can get, and 2) I have simply not come across the rituals of Ba'al that were practiced. In my life, this would seem to have little effect. The thing that caught my eye and made me think this is worth more investigation is that the word 'abomination' does indeed relate to idol worship more often than not.

That does not mean I will eventually agree with you, however.

One thing that isn't up for debate and interpretation is that Jesus Christs never said anything in regards to it.

He did say one thing that could be interpreted as referencing it. Jesus said "I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it." Therefore, He referenced the entire law. Now as to whether He meant the Torah was in effect or whether He meant something else, is a discussion topic.

Oh, and thanks for being one of the open-minded Christians

It is very difficult to learn and grow when one closes one's mind.

TheRedneck