U.S. Holding 51,000 Iraqis In Prison, Most Illegally

These prisons have been refered to as terrorist factories by the very people who planned the war. Does this not tell you that we want someone to fight? We need a target, one that stands on the oil. Venezuela is next.

reply to post by earthman4


Good point - and we are now into that very same vicious circle, where the more people are mistreated, the more insurgents or "terrorists" we create.

Supporters of this programme of barbarity seem to view it as an abstract, forgetting that these are real people, with real emotions, in a part of the world that is religiously, and culturally a million miles from our own.

Sun Tzu said “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.”
This has been shown to be true on countless occasions, and yet the people who brought us into this war appear to have forgotten it - or never knew it in the first place.

If they did, they would realise that they are doing exactly what you said - unless as you also said, that is their intention, in which case, they are beneath contempt.

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Originally posted by budski
They ARE being held without charges, and tortured - which order came from the presidents office.

Again, read what I have posted. Specifcially where it talks about when they are charged.

Can you get a copy of the order (signed by the President) that states that torture is allowed in all cases, based purely on speculation?

These are well established facts, which you deny only because you dislike the truth of what is happenning.

I deny those facts because they are wrong. You are the one who refuses to see the truth.

Now, again, either report me or stop making snide remarks and false allegations.

What false accusations have I made against you? Prove me wrong and I will be more than happy to apologize.

You can even send me a U2U (since you don't want to put anything out in public) and that will be more than enough for me to drop it. All I am asking for is proof of what you claim.

You ask me to read what you post - and I have, yet you deny me the same courtesy.

Do you have a signed affadavit from POTUS proving he DIDN'T order - that's how puerile your statement was.

Here
is yet ANOTHER link showing sources for each and every statement and attribution for the same statements.

Here's another.

Please take the time to read them, and the attributions of where the statements came from.

Once again, I will not discuss any knowledge I have with you regarding my previous statement.

I do not know you, and perhaps more pertinent, I would not trust you.

Originally posted by budski
You ask me to read what you post - and I have, yet you deny me the same courtesy.

I have read every piece of junk you have thrown up here.

Do you have a signed affadavit from POTUS proving he DIDN'T order - that's how puerile your statement was.

I am not the one claiming he has direct knowledge of the actions of every single member of the armed forces. No such order exists, or I would have seen it by now.

is yet ANOTHER link showing sources for each and every statement and attribution for the same statements.

Since when did we start accepting things from websites with a .org extension as pure truth?

Please take the time to read them, and the attributions of where the statements came from.

Yep, read them. Can you point out where they did a thorough job of investigating by sending their own folks over to confirm?

Once again, I will not discuss any knowledge I have with you regarding my previous statement.
I do not know you, and perhaps more pertinent, I would not trust you.

Until such time as you do, your credibilty with me is zero.

As far as trusting me, whatever makes you feel better.

reply to post by COOL HAND


Sorry, but that is an outright lie and a deliberate falsehood.

I never said I had information from every member of the armed forces.

Here's a direct quote

Sorry, but ranking officers toe the party line - I speak from experience, and I say this with complete certainty.

I await your apology.

Here some more, the numbers by the quotes refer to where the quotes came from, and from whom:

Details of the Torture System

Reports have revealed acts by Coalition guards and interrogators that included vicious beating, strangulation and suffocation, forced nudity and other forms of humiliation, threats with dogs, and prolonged exposure to intense heat or cold. [11] Reports have also detailed hooding, sleep deprivation, hanging by the arms, near-drowning, sexual abuse, restricted food and water, burns, use of sharp and blunt instruments, exposure to intolerable noise, threats of murder, beating with clubs and wire, prolonged “stress” positions, electric shocks and more. [12] Even Pentagon reports have described torture in clear, unambiguous and agonizing detail. [13]

The abuses at Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad – controlled by US forces – are known worldwide. But Coalition personnel have abused and tortured prisoners at numerous other sites, including:

* Central prisons such as Camp Cropper , Camp Bucca and Camp Shu'aiba near Basra (a UK facility)
* Secret interrogation sites such as Camp Nama near Baghdad , [14] and Camp Diamondback at the Mosul Airport . [15]
* Makeshift prison camps
* Divisional and brigade level military detention centers
* Forward operating bases such as Tiger in al-Qaim [16] and Mercury in Falluja, [17]
* Points of capture. [18]

H undreds of US personnel have abused and tortured prisoners in Iraq . [19]UK forces have also been clearly involved and the Dutch contingent has also been implicated. [20] Regular military forces and units of military police guards have most often appeared in press stories, official reports and court martials. Virtually all of those in the spotlight during the Abu Ghraib scandal were US army reservists, members of the 800 th Military Police Brigade. But this focus was seriously misleading.

Less visible, but far more systematically involved in abusive practices, are:

* Military Intelligence personnel
* Special Operations personnel (US Army Rangers, US Navy Seals, British Special Air Services, etc.)
* CIA and other intelligence and police service personnel (in particular, staff of the Defense Intelligence Agency, the FBI and the British Secret Intelligence Service, sometimes known as MI6). [21]

At Abu Ghraib, Military Intelligence (and the CIA) controlled Cellblocks 1A and 1B, the prison buildings where torture was taking place. [22] Military Intelligence put pressure on the Military Police guards to “set the conditions” (i.e. abusively prepare detainees) for interrogation. [23] The notorious Camp Nama , another major interrogation site, included among its key personnel: special operations, military intelligence, and CIA. [24] Others involved in the torture and abuse are:

* Military medical personnel, including doctors, who have helped design, approve and monitor abusive interrogation, as well as filing false medical reports, including false death certificates. [25]
* Private military contractors, including employees of Titan and CACI International, who were hired to perform guard duty, translation or interrogation services. [26]CACI alone employed almost half of all interrogators and analysts at Abu Ghraib during the scandal period. [27] Some of these contract personnel previously worked in US domestic prisons, where they already had records of criminal abuse of prisoners. [28]

where the information came from:

[11] The first reports to detail torture methods were: Bucca Report, ICRC Report, and Taguba Report. We have studied seven military reports and twelve reports from human rights organizations where these methods are described in detail. Much additional evidence is available in the press and in military court martial trails, as referenced below.

[12]Ibid.

[13] See Bucca Report, Taguba Report; and reports by General Donald Ryder, Colonel Stuart Herrington, General Paul Mikolashek, and General George Fay, among others.

[14] Human Rights Watch, No Blood, No Foul (July 2006) pp. 6-25. See also Eric Schmitt and Carolyn Marshall, “ In Secret Unit's 'Black Room,' a Grim Portrait of US Abuse ” New York Times ( March 19, 2006 )

[15] Human Rights Watch, op.cit . pp. 38-47

[16]Ibid. , pp. 25-38

[17] Human Rights Watch, Leadership Failure: Firsthand Accounts of Torture of Iraqi Detainees by the U.S. Army's 82 nd Airborne Division (September, 2005) A “forward operating base” is a temporary base located close to a theater of operations.

[18] The Mikolashek Report mentions that in the period to June 2004, nearly half of the alleged cases of abuse occurred at the “point of capture,” – that is, before persons had been brought to any detention facility at all. And of 20 cases of detainee deaths examined, 10 occurred in prisons, five at forward collection points and five at points of capture. See Josh White and Scott Higham, “Army Calls Abuses ‘Aberrations'” Washington Post ( July 23, 2004 )

[19] See Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project (Human Rights Watch, Human Rights First and the New York University School of Law Center for Human Rights and Global Justice, By the Numbers (April, 2006) and American Civil Liberty Union, Enduring Abuse (April 2006)

[20]As additional evidence emerges of UK abusive detention practices, the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights has expressed concern and asked for explanations about the “use of inhuman and degrading interrogation techniques.” Robert Verkaik, “Kidnap and Torture: New Claims of Army War Crimes in Iraq ” Independent (May 18, 2007); Robert Verkaik, “Human Rights in Iraq : a Case to Answer” Independent (May 29, 2007) “Dutch Military in Iraq Abuse Row” BBC (November 17, 2006)

[21] See for example Schmitt and Marshall , op.cit. ; Human Rights First, Command's Responsibility (February, 2006) pp. 7 and 9; Peter Beaumont, Martin Bright, Paul Harris, “British Quizzed Iraqis at Torture Jail” Observer ( May 9, 2004 ); David Johnston, “US Inquiry Falters on Civilians Accused of Detainee Abuse” International Herald Tribune ( December 19, 2006 ). Human Rights Watch's information on Camp Nama , an extremely abusive secret site for prisoner interrogation, quotes a participant who says that most of those at the camp were CIA and special forces personnel. “No Blood, No Foul” p. 8. The FBI has also reportedly been involved in interrogation in Camp Nama and elsewhere in Iraq (Schmitt and Marshall, op. cit .).

[22] Taguba Report, op. cit. pp. 18-19

[23]Ibid ., p. 18. See also “ICRC Report”, op. cit. p. 13. There has been extreme underreporting of the actual interrogations at Abu Ghraib.

[24] Human Rights Watch, No Blood, No Foul (July 2006) pp. 6-25

[25] Steven H. Miles, “Abu Graib: its legacy for military medicine” The Lancet , Vol 364 ( August 21, 2004 ) pp. 725-729

[26] Taguba Report. The report mentions by name four persons from the two contractor firms who were involved in torture. Contractors have been immune from military law and none have been prosecuted under US law for these crimes.

[27] Peter Beaumont, “Abu Ghraib Abuse Firms are Rewarded” Observer ( January 16, 2005 )

[28] Avery Gordon, “D'où viennent les tortionnaires d'Abu Ghraib?” Le Monde Diplomatique (November, 2006) pp. 20-21

source

Originally posted by budski
[Sorry, but that is an outright lie and a deliberate falsehood.
I never said I had information from every member of the armed forces.

I never said that you did either. Reread what I posted.

Here's a direct quote

Sorry, but ranking officers toe the party line - I speak from experience, and I say this with complete certainty.

I await your apology.

May apology for what? You claim to have experience, yet you refuse to give any details of that experience. You won't even admit to knowing any senior ranking officers. I have daily experience with senior officers, and they don't "toe the party line." If they expected all officers to "toe the party line" then no one would have gotten promoted during the Clinton administration.

Am I supposed to apologize because you can't back up your claims?

reply to post by COOL HAND


I have posted information above, and the sources it came from, including high ranking officers and government documents.

Can you provide evidence to refute this.

Originally posted by budski
I have posted information above, and the sources it came from, including high ranking officers and government documents.

I must be missing something here, where are the high ranking officers in your articles who claim that they ordered (or participated) in the torturing of prisoners on the orders of the President.

Can you provide evidence to refute this.

Refute what? You want me to show an order that was never given?

PS Can you honestly say that you trust every source that they used to make this article? If so, I suggest you take a close look at where they got some of their information.

reply to post by COOL HAND

Even Pentagon reports have described torture in clear, unambiguous and agonizing detail. [13]

[13] See Bucca Report, Taguba Report; and reports by General Donald Ryder, Colonel Stuart Herrington, General Paul Mikolashek, and General George Fay, among others.

From previous post.

Please provide sources to refute the information I have posted.

I will continue posting excerts from publications, and their sources.

If you choose not to refute these articles and sources, I will take this to mean that you have no case for what you are saying, as I have known throughout this thread.



[edit on 16/5/2008 by budski]

Originally posted by budski
I will continue posting excerts from publications, and their sources.

Then post that report so we can read it for ourselves. I am curious as to what they place the number at.

If you choose not to refute these articles and sources, I will take this to mean that you have no case for what you are saying, as I have known throughout this thread.

Ohh, good one. Are we in fifth grade again?

reply to post by COOL HAND


I have previously posted it - the fact that you chose not to read it is your problem.

Those olivegreen coloured specs must be hard to see through.

And... We have whole lot more of our own innocent citizens in jail.