It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The secret non-Christian anti-Masonic agenda by some fundamentalist Christians

page: 1
3
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 15 2008 @ 04:51 AM
link   
I contend that some fundamentalist Christians have a secret non-Christian agenda for attacking Freemasonry, and that there is a conspiracy by this group against Freemasonry.

My argument for this conspiracy against Freemasonry:

Let’s say that I wanted to make an outrageous claim such as:

“There are high-level Christians with a secret agenda controlling the world for financial gain. All the low-level Christians, such as those who simply attend church, ministers of local churches etc. have no idea of the secret agenda because they are kept in the dark by the high-level Christians, who are actually taking their money.”

Since I would not be able to prove any of this, I might take the following steps:

I would make a website which claims that this is the case. The website might even have fabricated supporting videos, or video’s taken totally out of context, but I would put them together in a way that seems to support the case.

Now, whenever I make this claim, I could use the website as proof.

Of course, this sounds absurd, but this is exactly the way that some fundamentalist Christians try to bash Masonry.

Now, my question is: “Why?”

I hold that there really are some fundamentalist Christians with a secret agenda (although not the agenda that I have claimed above.) In fact, I have absolutely no idea what this agenda may be, but I still hold that there really are some Christians with a secret non-Christian agenda, because of the following argument:

- The image of Freemasonry is certainly hurt by these false claims.

- Individual Masons suffer, and are victimized in their everyday lives because of these false claims.

When trying to find a reason for these attacks on Freemasonry, one might immediately assume that these fundamentalist Christians are doing so in the name of Christianity, but this is not the case, because:

- These arguments actually tarnish the reputation of Christianity, because it causes many people to become anti-Christian once they realise that all of the claims made by these fundamentalist Christians are, in fact, prefabricated and unsupported propaganda.

- The arguments further tarnish the reputation of Christianity, since the fact that these attackers hurt real people in the process without any real purpose goes against what Christianity teaches.

Since the reason for the anti-Freemasonry attacks are not Christian, there must be another (unknown) reason. I asked an open question to anti-masons in the The very real conspiracy against Freemasonry thread to explain WHY they attack Freemasonry the way they do, and the silence was startling.

Given the fact that their motives are not Christian, and given their silence on the matter, I have no alternative but to conclude that these fundamentalist Christians do have a secret conspirative non-Christian agenda for attacking Freemasonry.

[edit on 15/5/2008 by Saurus]




posted on May, 15 2008 @ 06:18 AM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 



Originally posted by Saurus
Now, my question is: “Why?” ... I have absolutely no idea what this agenda may be...


Christians are faith-based creatures, so when a pastor or a priest or someone in a position of religious authority says something about a particular subject, it is believed in a manner not readily understood by the more rationalist camp of thought. This is the whole thing in a nutshell that I think your complaining about.

Secret agenda? Perhaps. Secret agenda for the glory of God - yes (whether their actions actually accomplish it or not). Secret agenda to expose what they perceive as part and parcel of the occult/satanic influence in the world - yes. The latter reason is the key. Spiritual warfare is what they're all about. And, in fact, it is Biblical for them to proceed in this manner. The Word of God admonishes them to expose the darkness and conspiracy in the world. (I forget the specific passages; but they exist). I do concede, however, a lot more intellect and critical thinking in the process is urgently needed. A Bible verse to heed is this: "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men." (1 Corinthians 14:20) [A new creature needs to be invented if they wish to be taken seriously - the scholarly bible-thumper!]

If you're willing to speak rationally about the subject, then so am I. But, you must not generalize. Cite examples and be thoroughly specific (author, URL, quote, and/or book and page number).



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 06:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
 


Thanks for your reply. I think it is well thought out, and is quite thought provoking.

I have tried to take care not to generalize by adding the word 'some' in my topic and argument, and, as per your request, I shall continue to make every effort not to generalize.

My first question to you.

- Many of those fundamentalist Christians who do attack Freemasonry visciously have no proof that Freemasonry is in any way occult or has satanic influence. They have seen false evidence on site which are known to be untrue propaganda, such as freemasonrywatch.org.

- The bible does not mention Freemasonry, as it wasn;t around then.

- Thus, their perceptions of Freemasonry come from anti-masonic sites and literature such as freemasonrywatch.org.

- As far as I see it, from a anti-masons point of view, it is possible that Freemasonry might be occult/have satanic influence. The evidence is not conclusive.

- On the other hand, when they attack Freemasonry, Masons do get hurt. I have been victimized many times by anti-masons. Masons, like non-Masons, are often senstive people, and I feel that they are objectified.

- My argument is that it is un-Christian to choose an attack with accusations which may or may not be true where someone gets hurt.

When you say 'Spiritual Warfare,' I can accept that a Christian might attack an organization which is obviously anti-Christian with the cause you mention, but to attack and inflict hurt on something which may or may not be anti-Christian (from an anti-mason's perspective) is like saying I will divorce my wife because she may or may not be cheating on me.

If I divorce her, surely she has a right to get evidence that I might have that she has been cheating, and to argue her case. But yet, none of those who visciously attack Masonry provide proof to the mason, other than literature and sites which have been shown to be untrue.

I consider such actions un-Christian.

Now you say:



Christians are faith-based creatures, so when a pastor or a priest or someone in a position of religious authority says something about a particular subject, it is believed in a manner not readily understood by the more rationalist camp of thought. This is the whole thing in a nutshell that I think your complaining about.


This makes sense to me. I can accept your reasoning here. But this is where my conspiracy theory comes in.

Perhaps those who believe the anti-masonic stories from figures of religious authority should be placed in a different basket to the type that I have mentioned above.

But for some reason, also without biblical backing (because there is no Freemasonry in the bible) these figures of religious authority, who are also without proof, attack Masonry without providing Masons with a reason, or giving Masons a chance to defend themselves.

The fact that many groups of authoritative figures do the same thing against Masonry without transparent justification or reasons does suggest some sort of conspiracy.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 07:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 


Let me put it this way. You cite a specific example - the whole world is your playground - and then I will respond with either an acknowledgment that you are correct, or a refutation and proof of why I believe the opposite. Generalizing, theorizing, speculating and group analysis solves nothing - on both sides.

I've been at this for a while now - on the opposite side, that it is.

How bout it?



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 08:11 AM
link   
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
 


Things can be solved through discussion and opinions can change through discussion. Ive changed some of my views by having discussions here.
One might at first not admit it, but exposure to certain things does change ones perception.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 08:19 AM
link   
reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Certainly, Mr. Obvious.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 08:51 AM
link   
I have a very clear and specific example in mind, which is the reason that decided to start this thread.

Last night, at my lodge, we were supposed to initiate a candidate into Freemasonry. He had been through the entire application process and balloted on, and was very, very excited.

On Friday, he called a member of our lodge, and informed us that he was pulling out, because his family had told him that they would disown him if he joined, amidst tales of satan worship and the likes.

Who was hurt?

- The candidate, who had been wanting for years and years to join.
- His friend, a member of my lodge.
- My lodge and Freemasonry in general.

Who gained?

I can imagine many fundamentalists who are on this site who would immediately rejoice at the news and say that he did the right thing, and believing that they had won a victory for Christianity.

But did they really win a victory for Christianity? What if they are wrong about Masonry? What if this person's moral slip over his lifetime, now that he did not join Freemasonry, and he finds himself forgetting his Christian values? What if Masonry really would have supported him in his Christian beliefs along the way?

Do you think that, without proof of the occult/satanic influence claims, the people who indoctrinated his family really had the right to deny him that chance, not really knowing if it would have eventually made him a better man or not?

We established that people were hurt by anti-mason sentiment in this case, but, in your opinion, who really gained anything?


[edit on 15/5/2008 by Saurus]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 09:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 


Originally posted by Saurus
in your opinion, who really gained anything?


Nobody gained. Sounds to me like the classic "Bobby can't go out and play, because you're a bad influence on my boy"-argument.

It's also sad - not because he missed out on Masonry which is where you're coming from - but because the guy's a tool if he let's other people make life decisions for him (family or not). Maybe it's for the best. I know I wouldn't want someone with such a weak backbone in an organization that I'd belonged to.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 09:47 AM
link   


I know I wouldn't want someone with such a weak backbone in an organization that I'd belonged to.


I can't say I agree.

I don't think one should go against their parent's wishes in matter like this which affects the whole family.

I feel he was right to respect his parent's wishes in this case.

I feel his parents were wrong.


[edit on 15/5/2008 by Saurus]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 09:53 AM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 


I'd say it is precisely "a matter like this" that defines an individual (the operative word). Either you're a sheeple or your not. Period.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:01 AM
link   
Fair enough, our opinions differ on this point.

My next question:

Do you think that religious authority figures have a right to indoctrinate people against Masonry?



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by Saurus
 


I'd say it is precisely "a matter like this" that defines an individual (the operative word). Either you're a sheeple or your not. Period.


Depends how old the guy was. Judging from Saurus' description, I'd venture that he was in his early to mid-20's, an age which I think it'd be exceptional for someone to cut themselves off from family because of differing beliefs or opinions. Now early to mid-30's to respond in the same fashion would certainly IMHO qualify that person as a "sheeple". However, it's still a crying shame for all involved and when ignorance rules the day, there are no winners.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by Saurus
Do you think that religious authority figures have a right to indoctrinate people against Masonry?


That's what they do, indoctrinate! So, yes - with and asterisk.

My own own feeling is that priests, pastors or any such intermediaries between man and God have long since proven to be a method of control, first and foremost. Holding authority? Hardly. Anyone who lets anyone else think for them is certainly - again - a tool and a sheeple.

The only test of an argument for me is if it is true. Facts speak much louder than dogma.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 10:57 AM
link   
Why do you think they indoctrinate people against Masonry if they have nothing to gain by doing so?

It seems implausable that they would do so with no reason.

There must be some agenda...

[edit on 15/5/2008 by Saurus]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 11:28 AM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 


The agenda begins with the very correct conclusion, IMO, that Freemasonry - to a fundamental Bible-believing adherent of the gospel of Jesus Christ - is thoroughly incompatible with what the Bible teaches.

A million cans of worms have been opened by this statement. We could argue and debate this until Hades freezes over. It's futile.

My own gripe is the occult aspect of it, which I think will never be reconciled. Another persuasive bit of research, is the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Masonry.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 12:22 PM
link   
reply to post by Saurus
 


I actually got into it with a guy at my new office yesterday..

Strict Catholic, saw my rings, and went on a rant that all I needed was "God and family".


He's a bigot, and a Jerk. And I believe he, like so many, are just self righteous in their belief. I don't consider them Christian by any means, though it is sad they represent a large portion of Christianity imo.

But what ever, I find it funny as hell when someone goes on a rant to my face about my personal life. He doesn't like his new nick name in the office "Holier than thou".



But essentially Fire in the mind of men is correct when he says they simply cannot connect Masonry and the Bible together. That there is some kind of polar rejection if you will, they must repel on another.

It is quites simply closed mindedness .. more often then not something they picked up from another closed minded person and instead of finding on their own, regurgitate what they heard.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 12:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


The agenda begins with the very correct conclusion, IMO, that Freemasonry - to a fundamental Bible-believing adherent of the gospel of Jesus Christ - is thoroughly incompatible with what the Bible teaches.


As one who considers Christianity, and the Bible, to the be an evolution in Gnostic thought, I must completely disagree.



My own gripe is the occult aspect of it


From your words, I assume you a Christian. If you have a "gripe" with the occult aspects of Freemasonry, what is your position on the occult aspects of Christianity?



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 12:45 PM
link   
Hello All.

I recently had a very good friend of mine chat with me about joining the Fraternity and I was thrilled that he was interested. I gave him a quick overview of the process, and spoke with the Master of the Lodge he wanted to join, and got the ball rolling for him. I received a call from him a week later wanting to call off the process, and when I asked him why, he stated that his wife had mentioned to her mother that he was going to become a Mason, and Mom-In-Law FREAKED OUT. To make a long story short, (yeah I know its too late
) I spoke with his wife and could not believe the vehemence with respect to Freemasonry. I know his wife very well and have for 15 years, and after chatting with me, she felt better knowing I was a Mason, and had not started worshiping Satan yet, and agreed to back her husband in his choice to become Mason.

What surprised me was the obvious lack of true information that she was given regarding the order, and I do wonder why she was told outright lies by her mother.

Just My 2 cents worth.

Dredz



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 12:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by Masonic Light
your position on the occult aspects of Christianity?


It depends what it is you're referring to.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 02:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


It depends what it is you're referring to.


lol, in that case it would depend on what you were referring to when you mentioned "occult aspects" of Freemasonry. Having spent all my life in Christianity, and being a long-time Mason as well as even longer-time student of occultism, I would say that the "occult aspects" of Freemasonry and Christianity are pretty much identical.




top topics



 
3
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join