Together We Can Put an End to Religious/Ideological Bigotry at ATS!

reply to post by worldwatcher


Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you for further clarifying what my intentions are here. I don't want my message to be lost by people assuming that I have some ulterior motives beyond what I have stated.

There might be people out there that don't respect me, though I have tried hard to earn the respect of others. Which is exactly why I am trying to get mods involved here. There is a certain amount of respect that must be given to you and other mods because of your position, and that will help keep this thread moving not only in the right direction, but moving in general.

Though we all owe you a certain amount of respect because of the position you hold here at ATS, you have earned my utmost respect time and time again and this occasion is no different. Thank you for answering my request, and taking the time be involved in something that effects all of us.

I respect all religions

What I don't respect are the people who try to push a belief on to others. I have my own beliefs that I tend to go back and forth on myself. I believe in a God, I just don't think the bible contains a lot of truth.

If I see a group practicing their religion, I respect that. If I see a group trying to push their religion/belief on to others by doing things like taking quotes from the bible out of context to push their own idea, that's when I feel I should say something and I usually do. Especially if children are involved.

People should be able to choose whatever religion they want to follow. Not be forced into choosing one. If I ever had kids that's how I'd want them to do it. Research them and choose what they feel comfortable with. Not pick one just because it's what most of their friends or family follow. I'll never push anyone into my beliefs. I keep it to myself unless I'm asked about it and even then I won't go into details unless they are interested and want to know more. Even then I'll just say it's better to go research it themselves instead of getting just one persons view of it.

I agree that a lot of these religious threads that pop up on here are purposely written just to strike the nerves of people who believe in something else. That's why I usually ignore the entire religious section. I think the last couple days is the most I've ever talked about religion on ATS and I've only made about 3 posts I think. It's nothing but people arguing or twisting others words around and some trying to push their particular beliefs on to others.

I'll most likely make this my last post about religion on here. I saw a user take a whole post of mine in another thread on religion and completely twist it around to make it look like something I didn't say and that annoys me more than anything when people do that. All because they can't respect the opinions of others. Before anyone says anything, I'm not disrespecting anyone's opinion on religions. It only bothers me when people try to force a religion on others. I have good friends who follow different religions and I have a lot of respect for them because they don't go forcing it on others.

Originally posted by nightmare_david

I agree that a lot of these religious threads that pop up on here are purposely written just to strike the nerves of people who believe in something else. That's why I usually ignore the entire religious section. I think the last couple days is the most I've ever talked about religion on ATS and I've only made about 3 posts I think. It's nothing but people arguing or twisting others words around and some trying to push their particular beliefs on to others.

You have made several valid points, but I feel this one is very important. I enjoy discussing religion, and conspiracies in religion. Sometimes I even enjoy spirited, yet civil debate. It's the current climate that has turned many people, who would normally offer much to any conversation, off. I have a feeling that there are many people who are waiting in the wings for an opportunity to discuss things openly and not be belittled. You deserve the star I'm about to give you, and though you intended for that to be your last post on this subject, I think you could be very valuable in this thread. Don't throw in the towel yet, your opinions do matter.

reply to post by Osiris1953


My friend, I agree in what you saw. However, your scope is short sided. It is not just in Religion where this occurs, nor is it only in Religion where this should be changed.

To many people confuse Discuss with Debate (as do I, being a debator previously). People enjoy being right, there are few joys greater than having one say 'Uncle'... whether on the play ground or in a forum. The "I Am Right!" and the "I Win!" are hard to avoid.

I love being proven wrong because it allows me to learn, I love more being right in the first place because it gives me confidence in my findings when I have no others to lean on. Most poeple adore the latter, care naught for the first.

And Debate, as well, is well and good. It's how one approaches the Debate, how one joins and adds to the Debate. Basically, in all manners of discussion, it is how one behaves themself.

To many people refuse to agree to disagree. This solves much. Stating "I have seen your side, and though logic is to be found I am simply not convinced. Nor do I have to be. I will continue with my ideas, now more founded due to the information you have given. I thank you for further educating me, even as we continue to disagree." How perfect a world if every disagreance ended thusly.

After all, Mary Magdaline was a woman of the street. After all, Mary Magdaline was the wife of Jesus. After all, the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus without conception. After all, it is scientifically impossible to give birth without being impregnated. The Ark is lost. The Ark is hidden. The Pyramids are tombs. The Pyramids are maps to be read from the sky.

So many things, so many views, so much information and so many people who care intensley about the discussions. So much truth to be shared, sadly sometimes it is forced.

Remember, on a board like this (not a disparaging remark, I have been loyal to ATS for years though this newer name has much less involvement... how do I get my Brrexkl back??) you will find people who go well beyond average. I mean that with great respect, as well. For it takes something more to go beyond with a cause. There are people here, who if not for the Internet being between them and an advasary, would give there life (or possibly take anothers) to further their cause. And it's much healthier for them to vent here than to take it to a physical level out there. True Die Hard Fanatics who are more engrossed in such issues than many of us who just fancy the adventure and idea of some of these great conspiricies and discussions.

An example. If I merely am interested in the idea of some ancient and great Illumanati then I will only feel a certain amount of gusto in researching and defending or accussing such an organization. However, one who has family from the Bavarian branch, or feel they have a kinship from an even older Illumanati, my very well take things very offensive. They feel on another level than the average.

If one is intense in ones Religion, then they will convey more strongly. Sometimes it is done in a wrong manner. Right cause, wrong effect.

This is how things are when people have such intense feelings on such ideals. This means the average poster must be more aware and approach things, though openly and inquisitively, more respectfully.

After all, a curious reader wanting to find out more might say "Why do Freemasons let the Illumanati control them?" Obviously an active Mason would take this as an affront, and after having been attacked many times previous may not realize the poster is uneducated and requesting education. This can lead to attacking some one for merely being uneducated on a topic (uncalled for) because of a reflex from defending himself numerous times from rants and burns (also uncalled for) and leading the discussion nowhere.

Don't assume. Ask. Politely.

reply to post by Osiris1953


Heck yea!!!!
First off star and flag for you Osiris man.
I think you deserve alot more in this particular case.
It's about damn time someone put forward this thought.

Osiris has asked me to include my thoughts though I don't think I can add much that has not already been said.

Simple fact of the matter is this is not just what the forum needs but the whole world NEEDS. But, it's got to start somewhere, why not with us? All of this divisive BS that goes on this forum is symptomatic of the problem with the world in this day and age.
None of us are without guilt in contributing to the mess though. Sure to varying degrees but finger pointing gets us no where and in the end doing that only continues and grows it.
Too long has certain leaders based their power by dividing us and telling us that anyone who is different is the enemy that must be converted or destroyed.
And IMHO it is killing us.
And MUST end if humanity is ever to move to any sort of good future.

We are all, really, if you look at it, not all that different, be you Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Budhist, etc etc etc etc.

Though it is in SOMES best interest that we think that we are. We must fight those people. Not each other.

Um. How's that Osiris?


[edit on 14-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by BradKell


I can see how my scope might be short sided. What you have done is explain a lot that hadn't necessarily thought of when drafting my original post. You have expanded the scope of this thread. I believe that we are on the same page for the most part. It is often a matter of how things are conveyed and not necessarily what is being conveyed. Either way I would appreciate it, if you intend to be up for a while, to help with this thread in my absence. Since I will be going to sleep quite shortly.

Your point of view in this matter could prove to be quit helpful, thank you for your input.

Yes I also admit there is a certain thrill from winning a rather heated debate.... but I'm going to steer clear of such guilty pleasures in the here and now.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
That's a correct statement. But those 'un-involved' people have the same right and justification to speak their mind in those spiritual threads.

I never said they didn't.

But is it your thoughts and your feelings?

I really don't mean to target you, but to bring up a reference to elucidate my point in general:

If everyone thought just like me all the time, it would get tedious and boring.

There was a time not long ago when you posted a response to me, that didn't include any of your thoughts or feelings, didn't address the thread topic, but instead just contained 11 scriptures for me to read. So you see, to some of us, the bible-thumpers are not always sharing their thoughts and feelings, rather they often put The Bible in our faces, as if that was the answer to every question.

I don't know where the 11 Bible quotes thread is.
Was it the Sally Kern's one?
I think I was answering a question about what I thought about it and there were many points to the question.
Yes, I addressed the questions AND the thread and
YES. Scriptures can be used.

I think a LOT of people can be offended if someone is against sin.


[edit on 14-5-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by WraothAscendant


That's awesome man, that's what it is. Don't worry about what others have said previously, even if your feelings reflect what others have already said you made your voice heard in a positive manner. That is really all I ask of anyone who decides to post in this thread. As you usual you came through for me when I needed you. You rock, you really do. I know that you have been in the middle of some of this religious debate/controversy in the past, but you are good guy, and I appreciate your efforts.

I hope you continue your contribution here, thank you very much.

reply to post by Clearskies


Thank you very much for responding to LL Clearskies. It might require some more discussion, but maybe the two of you can find some middle ground. I can see how a post with just scripture might come off as dismissive, but I wasn't there, and I won't pass any type of judgment on either of you. Thank you again for responding hopefully you will continue to post on this thread, your opinion is important, and the fact that you came back is wonderful.

I'm heading off to bed. Everyone has the opportunity here to help change the bitterness and anger that has been prevalent on the CIR forum. I appreciate all the contributions thus far, even from those that don't necessarily agree with me. I once again implore any and everyone to contribute here, if you approach this with a positive attitude, how can you have anything to lose? Anyhow good night one and all, I will be back as soon as I am available.

Maybe I am just cynical....

In my opinion, the religious/ideological bigotry is just a microcosm of the entire history of the human race. Even people who claim that they have no religion are so zealous with their belief that it is a religion unto itself.

Just live with it. If you or anyone else thinks that what they believe is the ultimate universal truth than fine.

If one thinks they know the truths to the universe, than a differing opinion shouldn't really matter because the other is just another ignorant person.

The bitterness and anger is just a symptom of personal insecurity and we all know how much personal insecurity there can be on the interweb.

Too much to read beyond the OP and first page, but I completely agree with the OP. It was never my intention to post on the spiritual forums as I also believe that religion is something that is extremely personal, there's even a simple way of explaining why religion is so personal:

Everybody has their own perspectives, not just on religion but on everything. Human beings, as a people are very ego-centric. Because what an INDIVIDUAL see's, feels, thinks, are completely their own. A single Human perceives the world in a unique way.

I'm also guilty, for I did delve into the religious forums (the 'deny ignorance' slogan on the banner did me in good), and despite telling myself not to post, just read, I ended up posting. I just couldn't bear it. Everyone who speaks about religion is biased. Hell! Every religion breeds it's offspring into being biased about religion, and the government even mind screws us all into being more biased.

I've seen in many of the board topics and threads that the replies of different peoples, from all up and down the the uniqueness spectrum, carry a certain level of professionalism. However the religious forums, because it's such a personal topic, manages to crack even the toughest of us ATSer's.


I'm in no way suggesting that the religious forums be taken off AboveTopSecret.com, but I think it's an issue that should be discussed, and resolved.

reply to post by Osiris1953

Great post, starred and flagged. I was posting on another thread a couple days ago when you posted your thoughts about making this thread, and was waiting to see how it was going to turn out. Your intentions are great and i hope this turns out the way you wanted it to.

If i was a mod i'd sure give you a round of applause just for making the sincere effort to put an end to all this bickering that goes on here about religious beliefs, or lack of them. It's uneccessary,imo goes against what ats is supposed to be about, and prevents a lot of people from posting.

I have posted (very reluctently) on two religious threads. On one thread i asked someone a couple of questions and they replied with courtesy and civility, which i was very thankful for, and i thanked them for being civil with me. That is what i come here for to speak to people as intelligent adults, to exchange ideas, to gain knowledge. When someone responds to me in a civilized and courteous manner this can be accomplished.

On another thread where i responded as soon as i said that i was a Christian the response was that i was responsible for everything. As a Christian i was responsible for every wrongful act that every Christian church had ever (in this person's opinion) carried out. Mind you i had not even so much as hinted at being affiliated with any church at all. All of the sudden being a Christian made me a member of an "extremist religion". One can be a Christian without being a member of a church, or being an extremist. That kind of response is what stops people from posting and joining in a conversation, and is not why i am here. It definitely does not help me learn anything, and puts me in defensive mode, most people can not discuss anything rationally when on the defensive. I'm not trying to say that i haven't seen religious people do the same thing, because i have.

I'm not hear to push my beleifs off on anyone, that's not my right, or my desire. My beliefs although the right ones for me, may not be right for anyone else. However i do not wish to be condemned, or belittled for my beliefs, as i do not condemn, or belittle others for thier beliefs. I do however like to learn about the beliefs of others, as i feel that one can never learn too much. And someone may have information that will help me to grow, or understand something better.

I don't think that because i am a Christian that makes me better than anyone else, or that my beliefs are automatically the right beliefs, they are just the right ones for me. I would just like for people to understand that and speak to me as a person, and not jump to the conclusion that because i am a Christian i am automatically some bible thumping, pulpit pounding zealot that believes that my way is the right way, and i must try to convert and save people.

Although i may not agree with some beliefs, i respect everyone's right to believe as they choose. I ask only that they give me the same respect. If someone has questions for me i will answer honestly and with civility and would hope to receive the same in return. I believe that is what you are trying to make happen with this thread, and i hope that it can be achieved. I'll check back and see how it works out, Thanks again for making the effort, taking the first step.



I can never seem to get those things to go where i want them to!!!!!

reply to post by Osiris1953


Yep. Forgive and forget is the way to go.
Otherwise the cycle continues to a horrorible end.

As for me rocking.
Well.........
*shrugs*
But thank you.

reply to post by Clearskies
I don't believe that osiris is trying to censor anyone, or anything. He's just asking that we talk to and treat each other with respect, civility, and dignity. Isn't that the way we all want to be treated no matter what our beliefs? Isn't that why we come here, to hear viewpoints other than our own? How can a person feel free to share thier views on anything If they fear being attacked and demeaned? All this attacking and bickering back and forth completely defeats the concept of defying ignorance and expanding one's mind.

I am in support of any effort toward inspiring greater tolerance and forbearance between differing ideologies and viewpoints of any kind, religious or not. It is heartening to see that I'm not alone or as isolated in that sentiment as I sometimes fear. Sometimes when I make posts similar to that of the OP, even as I type them I sort of mentally "cringe" for fear that they will be rejected out of hand.

I applaud the OP for his or her tolerance and desire for harmony. I too see no reason whatsoever why people can't discuss their views with mutual respect and openness. Nobody expects everyone to agree with one another, but I think it's entirely possible to get beyond even "grudging" forbearance, and get to a point at which we actually care for and respect those with views even totally polarized from our own. Why we feel compelled to perceive different viewpoints (born of differing experiences and perspectives, which is really out of anyone's hands) as adversarial is something I've never understood. People come from totally different worlds often times, so it's natural to expect disagreement. Should people be somehow excluded from our care and respect for that? Not in my opinion.

I can disagree with someone until I'm blue in the face, but I don't feel there's any justifiable reason for me to get angry at them or to attack them.

Edit to add: I too agree that the OP's intent, however one chooses to interpret his or her choice of words, was not to censor, but rather to suggest, inspire, and ask for the consideration of a more compassionate and respectful tact from all of us. They aren't laying out a mandate or suggesting that it should be mandatory. There's a difference between asking or hoping, and demanding or dictating (the latter of which would be censorship.)

[edit on 5/15/2008 by AceWombat04]

I have some pretty radical (but totally unoriginal) beliefs and theories, but I ALWAYS try my best to keep my cool even if my "opponents" don't (as is often the case when discussing radical theories).

I feel you get your point across better if you appear rational and unruffled by agressive opposition.

Just to ask the question for my own clarification. What about the threads that have hit on atheists, i remember one a while ago that had a very cndemning title if you were an atheist. Are you asking for civility only when someone has a reliigon like christianity or are atheists also protected under this net?

The whole problem is that if someone says something like "Well i don't believe that because...." then a religious person will often come back with "Well you're going to hell then". It's not exactly a god answer and doesn't address the points made. Also any points made criticising a certain part of a religion are imdeiately jumped upon as an attack instead of being discussed. I'm not sure why people do this other than they don't like their belief even being questioned.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to question someones beliefs as long as you're polite abut it and not trying to convert them or saying their religion is wrong completely. Why can't we just ask a question aobut a contradicition we find or a problem we see? That goes for atheists as well by the way, atheists also need to accept the questions, they shouldn't however have to accept being told they're going to hell, or in one of my favorite threads i've seen latley "Atheists: How o you know right from wrong?".

That thread to me is an absolute direct assault on a belief and seems as wrong as any anti-christian thread.

As always i'll sit on the agnostic fence, where i can argue with both sides and accept everyone could be right

Aetheists take the side to oppose religion, but they really just created their own religion and try to force that propaganda on you just like any other religion. The major flaw with both sides is that they claim to know with certainty things that we cannot know with certainty. What happens to the Christians and Muslims and Jews if we can prove there is no God and the aetheists are right? What happens to the aethesits if God makes himself known?

The people on this site are always claiming that you need to have supporting evidence with credible sources for anything you say, but at the same time make insane assumptions concerning God, which diminishes any rationality you might have.

Has anyone ever asked themselves why they do or don't believe in God? Clearly something had to create our planet, and our solar system, and our galaxy, and our universe, but what created this creative force? The systems of religion on our planet today are designed to be in conflict with one another. I believe there has to be something out there, but I fear that somewhere along the way religions were corrupted. Most likely Illuminati and NWO, but maybe just corrupted by money, power, and control. Power tends to corrupt but absolute power absolutely corrupts. Until very recently in our history, the religions had complete control of the world and have been telling our ancestors what to think for thousands of years. They were taught to reteach what they have learned and to do whatever they could to make sure people believed. The more "faith" you have, the better you are. But faith literally means to blindly believe without questioning. How can you be a member of this site if you have true faith in any religion? Go ask your pastor or priest or rabii about anyone of the topics on this board and they will TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE. This should tie directly in to the Pope announcing it is ok to believe in aliens. Why now? What has changed? John Lear might be right after all about a fake alien disclosure. The pope is pre-conditioning christians around the world to be ok with aliens, that God designed them, that aliens do not conflict with anything in the bible. However, it conflicts with everything. If the church is willing to admit this now, are they also willing to admit that the Sumerian tablets might not be myths? That the translations produced by Stitchin might actually be real? No. They will continue to tell you what is ok to believe in and what is not ok.

I watched this video yesterday, and it is by far the most complete and comprehensive video connecting the ancient peoples and mystery religions with todays religion and what is happening in the world. I feel that one of the major problems with religious people is their lack of open-mindedness. They are pre-conditioned to think that anything that might discredit their religion is a test and that if they have ultimate blind faith they will be better in the end. My challenge to the religious folks and the aetheists alike is to watch this movie in its entirety. I know a lot of people on this site have watched it already, but it is a good wake up call to anyone who has never looked into the meanings and symbols of religion and its ceremonies. Please try to approach this from a neutral standpoint and post your thoughts. I have not heard any bad feedback concerning this video to this point. I'd like to hear what is questionable and what everyone thinks is true.

video.google.com...

Hello,

My Mother was Catholic and my Father was not.

For myself I was raised Catholic but when I hit a certain age I told my Mom I didn't want to go to Church anymore I didn't like sitting , standing, sitting, standing getting dressed and all that.

Later in life as I grew I went back to Church to see how I felt about it and I was not impressed all I heard was coughing and babies crying.

As I grew older I looked back to the things in my life that did make sense to me.

(I stood in a room with extrememly tall beings so unlike a human and I was being told that they were our Creator's and known as the Elder's) and since I know about me and who I am inside things became much different for me when dealing with Religion.

When I read about the Catholic Faith and the Pope and how they even used trickery so far back in time I wasn't surprised... my thoughts always was control they just wanted control.

Now that I am older then dirt as my Grandkids say I have learned that even though Religion isn't my thing the way Religion is represented I do feel as if it is a good thing and that if people need this in there life then it is good for them to PREY to there God and to have Faith in there God. As I see it no one has a right to say they or there Religion is better then the next persons.

Human beings it seems need to have Faith and belief I can only see that as good.

With my kids and Grandkids I have told them we are Catholic "somewhat" but they in there time have to make there own choices and that they should look and learn about all Religions and see how they feel inside and then make there own choices.



[edit on 15-5-2008 by observe50]