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The Crisis At Home

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posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by The Nighthawk
 


LOL. Where did I use the world liberal? And where have I attacked anyone here. I would never call names.


Good God. If this is what the thread has come down to - inmature people calling others names, then I will go find another thread with adults on it.


[edit on 14-5-2008 by greeneyedleo]




posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by mybigunit
reply to post by centurion1211
 


No I mean you throw the word liberal or libertarian out there like we are some sort of evil people...Ill let you in on a little secret our founder fathers were libertarians...basically we believe in freedom and small government and the government that does exist is to serve the people not the people to serve them. I used to be a hardcore Bush loving republican after 9/11 then I woke up and realized man these guys tout small government, low spending, and freedom but then do quite the opposite. They spend money like its going out of style


Then we are basically in agreement, although you seemed to be supporting nighthawk's (totally opposite) position for awhile there. I voted for Bush twice and can no longer even stand to look at or listen to him. The absolute worst thing about supporting Bush was that I still believe he was better than anyone the libs ran against him.


[edit on 5/14/2008 by centurion1211]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
Everyone wants a good job, but not everyone is capable of working a good job. There is a difference.


Define a "good job". Thirty-five years a go the gas jockey at the station down the street made enough money to support a family of four with their own home and two cars in the garage. Real wages have depressed in this country to a point where "cost-of-living" increases don't keep pace with inflation.


Anything that requires them to work long hours for minimum wage.


Wrong. Millions of Americans have been forced to take 2 or 3 of these very jobs.



I did not say that unions weren't a bad thing in the past, just that they have become useless in this day and age. Now they are worried about the unions more than the workers they represent. I fully agree that they did some good in the past, but those days are gone.


Union membership is a tiny fraction of what it once was. Unions didn't drive manufacturing away, if you believe that there's a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you. NAFTA and the end of tariffs as an enforcement tool led to America's manufacturing decline.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by greeneyedleo
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I have no "heroes" that are in office. Sorry.


I'll bet you considered Reagan a hero. Nixon maybe. They bear responsibility for this.


And the "welfare" issue has been a problem probably before I was born. So, lets not blame it on the PTB...but blame it on those abusing the system.


And again, those abusing the system are allowed to because the system and its mechanisms to prevent abuse have been deliberately broken.


Remember "personal responsibility" is key


Ah yes, the conservative catch-phrase of the day. Has it occurred to you that even the most responsible person might need the help of an outside force?



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Define a "good job".
One that provides what you need, not want.




Anything that requires them to work long hours for minimum wage.

Wrong. Millions of Americans have been forced to take 2 or 3 of these very jobs.

Why do they have to take 2 or 3 of these jobs? Could it be that they are incapable of doing any other kind of work?



Union membership is a tiny fraction of what it once was. Unions didn't drive manufacturing away, if you believe that there's a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you. NAFTA and the end of tariffs as an enforcement tool led to America's manufacturing decline.


Are you kidding me? I am guessing that you have not taken any kind of economic courses anywhere?



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 


I do agree with him on basic principals and I think you guys agree too but I dont think you guys are communicating it correctly. I mean like I said in another thread we shouldnt have homeless people here especially people who work and are homeless that is not American at all and then at the same time send billions in food and aid overseas...clean your backyard before you clean others...

And same with health insurance if our government who works for us gets free good health care then why cant we or at least subsidized healthcare. They work for us and many cant afford health insurance Im fortunate to be able to but $700 a month is a blow though to the pocket book. Either they pay for their own insurance or make it affordable for others. I know it sounds like big government but in this world market we have to compete and if our workers are not healthy and they are hungry and if your typical $10 an hour job is still not enough to pay the bills then its going to be hard to compete just my opinion....

btw greeneyedleo have you had some libertarian love before??? better than that old conservative love no one does it better than liberals...


[edit on 14-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
[
I have no "heroes" that are in office. Sorry.


I'll bet you considered Reagan a hero. Nixon maybe. They bear responsibility for this.


And the "welfare" issue has been a problem probably before I was born. So, lets not blame it on the PTB...but blame it on those abusing the system.


And again, those abusing the system are allowed to because the system and its mechanisms to prevent abuse have been deliberately broken.


Remember "personal responsibility" is key


Ah yes, the conservative catch-phrase of the day. Has it occurred to you that even the most responsible person might need the help of an outside force?


Reagan, yes. Nixon, hardly.

The welfare system was broken from the beginning. There were people abusing it and profiting from it from day one.

The last is actually a liberal catch phrase "Has it occurred to you that even the most responsible person might need the help of an outside force?"

Exactly how did any of our ancestors before 1933 survive without the "outside force" hovering over us, taking our freedoms and invading our lives? Answer for you: They worked hard, took their lumps, maybe relied on their neighbors and communities during tough times - the last thing they expected was the government riding to their rescue.

[edit on 5/14/2008 by centurion1211]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by mybigunit
reply to post by centurion1211
 


I do agree with him on basic principals and I think you guys agree too but I dont think you guys are communicating it correctly. [edit on 14-5-2008 by mybigunit]


I sincerely doubt it. In fact, I think nighthawk's use of an F-117 painted like the U.S. flag for an avatar is a travesty, and based on posts can only assume they mean it to denigrate both the military and the flag.

For the record, I do believe this thread contains only the 2nd "nighthawk" ever shot down in flames since they were put in service.


[edit on 5/14/2008 by centurion1211]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
One that provides what you need, not want.


In a truly free society a higher proportion of the individual's "needs" would be taken care of, allowing more freedom of choice and freedom to grow as an individual without the worry of how one will survive. Think how many college-educated people we'd have if college were free, like it is in most of the civilized world.

If you have to work like a plowhorse just to cover basic necessities (we're getting there in this country) you're as much a slave as anyone who lives in Communist China. You have an illusion of personal freedom, but financially, you're just an ant under someone's thumb. One cannot truly have freedom unless some measure of freedom from the vagaries of the market is included.



Why do they have to take 2 or 3 of these jobs? Could it be that they are incapable of doing any other kind of work?


Or, could it be that such work is the only thing available in their area? I'm not talking about kids out of high school. I'm talking about those who HAD good jobs, and built their lives around that, and their job is now gone. Not everyone can just uproot and run for the next factory job in another state, you know--especially when THAT factory may close in three months as well.


Are you kidding me? I am guessing that you have not taken any kind of economic courses anywhere?


Are you denying the necessity of tariffs to enforce a level playing field for American workers vs. cheap slave-workers overseas?



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
I sincerely doubt it. In fact, I think nighthawk's use of an F-117 painted like the U.S. flag for an avatar is a travesty, and based on posts can only assume they mean it to denigrate both the military and the flag.


My avatar is appropriate. An F-117, painted in the flag of my country, a country in distress at the hands of failed conservative philosophy--thus the flag is inverted. I love my country. But we're under siege from the forces of corporate fascism and we can do a whole lot better.

And if you think I've "gone down in flames" you have an odd definition of "victory". Are you the one outlining for Bush what "victory" means in Iraq too?



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by The Nighthawk
In a truly free society a higher proportion of the individual's "needs" would be taken care of, allowing more freedom of choice and freedom to grow as an individual without the worry of how one will survive. Think how many college-educated people we'd have if college were free, like it is in most of the civilized world.


So you are a big advocate of big government?

College can be free, if you work hard and get a scholarship.




Or, could it be that such work is the only thing available in their area? I'm not talking about kids out of high school. I'm talking about those who HAD good jobs, and built their lives around that, and their job is now gone. Not everyone can just uproot and run for the next factory job in another state, you know--especially when THAT factory may close in three months as well.


Whatever, they deserve that for not planning better for the future. Those are the folks who are draining, instead of helping, the economy.




Are you denying the necessity of tariffs to enforce a level playing field for American workers vs. cheap slave-workers overseas?


You just answered my question.

Apparently you enjoy paying more for what you are used to get for less.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by centurion1211
I sincerely doubt it. In fact, I think nighthawk's use of an F-117 painted like the U.S. flag for an avatar is a travesty, and based on posts can only assume they mean it to denigrate both the military and the flag.


My avatar is appropriate. An F-117, painted in the flag of my country, a country in distress at the hands of failed conservative philosophy--thus the flag is inverted. I love my country. But we're under siege from the forces of corporate fascism and we can do a whole lot better.


So, then I was right about your reasons for choosing the avatar.


And if you think I've "gone down in flames" you have an odd definition of "victory". Are you the one outlining for Bush what "victory" means in Iraq too?


No, I was referring to your resorting to insults and name-calling when you very quickly ran out of meaningful things to say. I've seen this behaviour too many times from "people that probably agree with you", not to be able to spot and understand it instantly.

Now, like some others here have already said, I'm off to other more interesting threads - before someone gives you a new plane (sheet of sound bites).



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
Why do folks always dump on Defense spending when it comes to budget issues?

Why not pull from other programs instead? Is Defense the only part of the budget that can be cut?

Why is it that noone ever calls for cuts in any other part of the budget? Why not take money from foregin aid?


Perhaps it's because TRILLIONS of dollars are missing/unaccounted in defense spending?

As you know, the Department of Defense really is not in charge of its civilian workforce, in a certain sense. It's the OPM, or Office of Personnel management, I guess. There are all kinds of long- standing rules and regulations about what you can do and what you can't do. I know Dr. Zakheim's been trying to hire CPAs because the financial systems of the department are so snarled up that we can't account for some $2.6 trillion in transactions that exist, if that's believable. And yet we're told that we can't hire CPAs to help untangle it in many respect

source

If we could find that money, perhaps cutting in defense spending wouldn't hurt at all, would it?

Then there's the fact that our "defense" spending, really isn't. It's "offense" spending. And we're preparing to spend even more. I don't want to rehash other threads, but there's plenty of them in this forum that go into further detail about which country is next, and why.

Account for the money, and then we can talk about another area in which to make budget cuts.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND


So you are a big advocate of big government?

College can be free, if you work hard and get a scholarship.

You just answered my question.

Apparently you enjoy paying more for what you are used to get for less.


Where does the most scholarship and grant money come from? It comes from the big nasty Government...there are private organizations that donate for scholarships but most of that money comes from the nasty government....


I think tarrifs are a good thing in some cases...I dont think that its fair to have free trade with a country like China for example when we are doing all the consuming of their products and they arent consuming ours hence the big trade deficits...or S Korea where they wont fully open up their markets to our auto makers but yet we have free trade with them I feel that is fair....But I think that the gains in the tariffs on these unfair countries should also lower income taxes to even it out...give us a break while making Koreans pay more...

[edit on 14-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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No country in this world has found the absolute answer.
BUT a good start is to look after your own.
For example, the elderly, many who have already served their county well and truly, should not have to choose between eating, and being able to afford their medication each month.
While I have no doubt that some people choose their 'homeless' lifestyle, most people given the chance could, and would, change and become productive members of society.
Some people just need a chance.
Instead of trying to change the rest of the world out there, maybe we should start at home.
like every one else, just my opinion.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
So you are a big advocate of big government?


Modern Government will always be big. Accept it, because it's true. The only question is whose interests it serves.


College can be free, if you work hard and get a scholarship.


To a select few. That's Elitism if I ever saw it. College needs to be free to all who qualify to go, regardless of economic status.




Or, could it be that such work is the only thing available in their area? I'm not talking about kids out of high school. I'm talking about those who HAD good jobs, and built their lives around that, and their job is now gone. Not everyone can just uproot and run for the next factory job in another state, you know--especially when THAT factory may close in three months as well.


Whatever, they deserve that for not planning better for the future. Those are the folks who are draining, instead of helping, the economy.


Nice. Better hope it never happens to you.



Are you denying the necessity of tariffs to enforce a level playing field for American workers vs. cheap slave-workers overseas?


You just answered my question.

Apparently you enjoy paying more for what you are used to get for less.

No, I recognize that business made plenty of profit when tariffs were in place and Americans did their own maufacturing for a good wage. Sending manufacturing overseas allowed corporations to artificially boost their profit margins while destroying the consumer base they rely on to purchase their products. I don't know where people keep getting this revisionist garbage that it was the other way around. Henry Ford paid his workers a living wage because he realized there would be no one to buy his cars if consumers had no money. Too bad Corporate America has lost sight of that basic principle.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by centurion1211
I sincerely doubt it. In fact, I think nighthawk's use of an F-117 painted like the U.S. flag for an avatar is a travesty, and based on posts can only assume they mean it to denigrate both the military and the flag.


My avatar is appropriate. An F-117, painted in the flag of my country, a country in distress at the hands of failed conservative philosophy--thus the flag is inverted. I love my country. But we're under siege from the forces of corporate fascism and we can do a whole lot better.


So, then I was right about your reasons for choosing the avatar.


Who's insulting who now?


No, I was referring to your resorting to insults and name-calling when you very quickly ran out of meaningful things to say.


You start your garbage on every thread with insults and name-calling. Your very philosophy is an affront to human decency, and you prove again and again why conservatism has failed. And admit the truth--you never think, for one minute, that ANYTHING said that disagrees with your Sacred Cow is "meaningful". You're a flame-baiting troll who gets off on inflaming people with a legitimate beef. At least I actually believe in something. All you care for is money.


I've seen this behaviour too many times from "people that probably agree with you", not to be able to spot and understand it instantly.


Spot what, righteous anger at people who essentially want millions of Americans to up and die? Why don't you just admit it? You want the poor to die. That way there's more to go around for the well-off like yourself. Admit it!


Now, like some others here have already said, I'm off to other more interesting threads - before someone gives you a new plane (sheet of sound bites).


The only "sound bites" on this thread came directly from today's Republican Talking Points. But, go ahead, run away.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:30 PM
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america seems to be on a downward spiral.

I can tell you first hand. When my wife lost her job 1 month before my son was born, and me already taking a 15% paycut (seeing the previous job ending). While we had planned for this, what we had not planned on was the govt deniying my wife unemployment cause she was UNABLE TO WORK after HAVING A KID. so we got big bills coming in and with the main bread winner out of work... we were in a bad situation. Luckily we got ourselves mostly out of it once she got back to work, but we could have been one of those people.

Now that you have see how this can happen lets focus on solutions for making sure this does not happen again to other people.

I propose getting rid of campaign contributions, the federal reserve, over seas jobs and welfare. Put all that money back into a quality america.


and in regards to jobs, i looked over the market a few months ago, i saw the job pay went down about 25-40% from just about 3 years ago. this means that people are accepting less in addition to the federal reserve printing more money to bail out the banks.

But hey, i am just an american, not a liberal, not a conservative, not a neo anything. I just believe in preserving this country and what it was founded on. Nothing else



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND


This is why unions need to go away.





Now you have shown your hand, you are a product of commercial advertising propaganda. Unions are for the people, it is our only way of keeping corporations from screwing us.

Did you know that in Europe a worker at Wal-Mart gets a month paid vacation? They have decent wages and health care. If that hurts business so much then why is wal-mart doing business there?

Now to the point of this thread. Our military spending doesn't nothing for defense against terrorists. IT is for offense only so the mutlinational corporations can do business and have protection. It has NOTHING to do with protecting American citizens. If you understood defense strategy you would not make such ignorant comments.

Sorry you are so gullible and have bought what the military industrial complex is selling.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by greeneyedleo

Oh DD, have no fear....soon, you will have LOTS of people swooping in and patting you on your back
and us few little peons will be in the minority


I wonder why that is? Oh wait I almost forgot, most people are still human and have not sold out to the media zombie think the corporations want.

Wake up please society is not supposed to be like this. We want the rights of the people ABOVE the rights of the corporations. Not the other way around.

I am a Firefighter and may end up homeless myself WTF is wrong with you people.



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