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Was Hitler that bad?

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posted on May, 14 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by bigbert81
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


Hmmm, interesting post Lucid...

I had actually not heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And thanks for willing to take some of the heat. I think anybody that knows me will know how used to it I am by now, but it's much appreciated, and more noble than I'm used to seeing here.

Here is another article I found...disturbing...which I thought you might want to read:

SRC: english.people.com.cn...

Thanks again.

And here's something more:

Tibet's rule was like Nazi Germany



O.K. , now that's just wrong; you quote a communist Chinese newspaper as your authority for the idea that Tibet was at one time an evil regime, and then to somehow bolster your contention, you throw in a link from an Indian newspaper. Now, is it just me or does anyone else see something wrong with this picture? Why no news coverage from western news sources or historical references? Could you be any more biased in your contentions? And I am not even a fan of the Dalai Lama, or Tibet for that matter; I just hate to see such flimsy evidene thrown out there as authoritative.




posted on May, 14 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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"was Hitler all that bad?" YES your threads a TROLL



Why do you need some else to to communicate the plainly obvious to you?
How Bad is Bad? How Stupid is Stupid?
Anyone seriously asking the original posters question may lack the ability to comprehend the answer.
]I can't believe I dignified this thread with an answer



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 05:58 PM
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I would like to ask you all a question in regards to the Nature of Evil. If we are to say Hitler was the most Evil person in the world, as many here have stated then I say. How so... Many of you will turn and say, Well look at how many people he killed and how he killed them. Now my question to you is - did Hitler personally go to each concentration camp, and throw the switch to gas. Did he shoot every single one of the people who died, or was it someone elses hand who was stupid enough to listen. To me this sounds like point blame. Now don't get me wrong Hitler was a very sadistic person. But really the only way he was able to achieve the scale that he did was by people following his orders.

If I turn to someone and say "Go Kill those 50 people!", and this individual goes and does it. Am I More evil than the man who actually carried it out, or are we equally sadistic. In my eye Hitler takes far too much credit. He was a brilliant man to be able to convince so many to do his bidding, but at the same time he personally did not kill as many people as the people who listened. It was "YOU" the people who did. It required people like "YOU" to support this to let it happen.

We can turn the finger again to more now a days. George Bush Declares a War in Iraq, and out boys go over there, and take down Saddam, and in the process kill thousands of unarmed citizens who got caught in the middle. Something here is wrong. There is no excuse for so many civilian casualties. Is the president to blame, or is it each soldier who followed orders. Now I am not say the War in Iraq, is wrong or right. I am just asking a question. As in the movie V for Vendetta. When V is giving his speech to the people over the air waves. He talks of how the people are robbed by fear, fear of terrorist and disease, and how the high chancellor took dictatorship through such means. Then the key statement comes into play. "If you are looking for the guilty party, you only need look into a mirror". We are the guilty party. At anytime we could stand up and say "NO" this isn't right, but we don't we sit quietly grumbling to each other.

Was Hitler to blame, was it the SS officers, was it you and me who sat and watched, was it George Bush, was it the soldiers, was it the civilians. I am not giving my opinion, I am only putting the question in a broader light.

Alternative Historical Researcher,

Blake K. Stoltman



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


Well, if you had done as much research as you claim to, then you would know that there's evidence that backs up what the Chinese are saying, however none about what the Dalai Lama claims (with regards to the torture).

So, now tell me, what's wrong with the first link I posted as well?

And I know where that last article came from. The point is to go out and do some research on your own.

[edit on 5/14/2008 by bigbert81]

[edit on 5/14/2008 by bigbert81]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by BStoltman

Was Hitler to blame, was it the SS officers, was it you and me who sat and watched, was it George Bush, was it the soldiers, was it the civilians. I am not giving my opinion, I am only putting the question in a broader light.



In terms of a broader light, you have forgotten the key aspect of which Hitler held his power over people.

He would not simply say "Go and kill those 50 people", he would pay one or two dozen hired goons with government money to infiltrate the military and spread the seeds of hatred, which would in turn make things smoother when he did infact say "Go and kill those 50 people".

It's called subversion mate, and Hitler was a class-act at it.

Do you sincerely believe you cannot be brainwashed into killing people?

They might have been the ones to pull the trigger, but it was Hitler who put them in the mind to do so.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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You can only be brainwashed into killing someone - If you are so stupid as to not think for yourself. Once again the blame is pointed at the induvidual. Talk about taking responsibility for your actions. No one can make me kill someone. I always have a choice. Now yes the choice may turn to You kill him or I kill you kind of a response. But either way the choice was yours. Ignorance is not a excuse, or nor is blind faith. If some comes in and tells me Tom down the street just killed my daughter, and I go out and get a gun, and shoot Tom without checking to see if my daughter is dead or if it was even in fact Tom who did it. Then Either way, I am still the Stupid Guilty person. Not the guy who told me he killed her. Both are technically to blame, but I am to blame more for not using common sense.

Blake K. Stoltman



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by BStoltman
 


Ah, i see - so you consider the deception to be less important than the result of that deception then?



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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I say for the most part they are equally to blame. There would have been not nearly as many people killed, nor would he of conquered so much land, if it weren't for People like "You" and "Me", who blindly followed whether through fear, ignorance, or shear sadistic enjoyment. I feel people need to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody has any power over you, unless you choose to let them have the power over you. Either way "YOU" and "I" are equally to blame.

Bad is Bad whether through Fear, Ignorance, or Blind Submission.

Blake K. Stoltman



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by bigbert81
reply to post by lightseeker
 


Well, if you had done as much research as you claim to, then you would know that there's evidence that backs up what the Chinese are saying, however none about what the Dalai Lama claims.

So, now tell me, what's wrong with the first link I posted as well?



Are you kidding me? Or are you just being contrary? Tibet is in a bitter struggle to gain it's independence from the PRC; Olympic torch riots, political protests at Chinese embasies, Chinese oppression of Tibet and Tibetans, you know..the reason for the DL to be in exile and NOT in Tibet. Is this ringing any bells, Bert? The Chinese have a vested interest in making Tibet and the DL, in particular, look bad to the world; as does India, whose own minority Budhist population has been oppressed for a very long time.

It's all disinformation, propaganda and in some cases, out right lies. Now, I don't pretend to know if some of these allegations might be true but given all of the above, you would have to be suspicious and very wary of taking these stories as gospel just because they are out there.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by BStoltman
 


Hitler is responsible for releasing that hidden side in people. And i am not just talking about Gestapo , SS (or NKVD - not to offend OP) - ordinary people wrote to these organizations and ratted out on other ordinary people , often lied - because it was allowed and encouraged. And leaders are those who create such an environment that someone just to get promoted will lie on his/her boss/neighbor (knowing that this person might be sent to camps and even be killed) and it will bring him respect and power,not condemnation.
And what about image of "enemy" that Hitler (and others) used so extensively - life sucks - it is because this enemy is messing things up. And if there is some all powerfull enemy people eventually agree to do bigger and bigger crimes just to stop this awful enemy - otherwise these bad things will not cease.
Why same Germans in WW1 did the "regular" awful things that all combatant sides then did - without all that exceptional cruelty that suddenly appeared couple of decades later? Leader wanted/allowed it.
In all societies there are sadists/immoral people, just healthy society fights them or simply restricts their options.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by BStoltman
 


Hench my username, sir.

I vowed to fight subversion and propoganda wherever they reared their heads, even if my life depended on it.

The tool of a Tyrant is Subversion, be it through threat of violence or through enchantment of the mind.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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And of course - the main medium of subversion is through language.

Mine is a war of words, friend.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 




In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away


Like this stuff even matters. Unless I take you by the hand, apparently, you're not going to believe it or look this stuff up on your own.

Funny that I have to post so much info that you are too lazy to get yourself, and then insult me for doing so for you.

I'm tired of this. Do some friggin' research, then come here and argue, because from what I'm seeing, you are just being hard-headed or wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. Fine, if you still want to believe the Dalai Lama is the peace-loving person he claims to be, you truly do like to stay in the dark.

Oh, and when I say 'what the Dalai Lama claims', you obviously are not on the same page as what I've been trying to show. I'm showing the torture side, I'm not talking the 'Free Tibet' crap. Apparently you're missing my points.

[edit on 5/14/2008 by bigbert81]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by BStoltman
 


Of course, this debate is over the level of guilt that is attributed to the deceiver and the deceived.

I ask you a single question;

Was not he who was deceived innocent until the point of the deception?



If you answer is yes, then you will have realised that the deceiver has stolen the innocence of two victims, albeit the second because of the first's loss.

It is my belief that no one dies innocent, as 'Death judges all'.

If you answered no, then i am of the understanding that you believe something along the lines of "There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of Guilt?", To coin a phrase?

[edit on 14-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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For the most part yes the deceived was innocent until deceived. But there has to be a point in which the innocent loses their innocence. Now if the one who was deceived, actually took the time to investigate all the facts they could, before acting, instead of following the hearsay of man, the casualty rate would have been far less. Are you telling me that someone could convince you that it is ok to steal thousands of peoples clothes, rape them, and then send them in for a Gas shower. Now I believe in miracles, but I am sorry I personally could NEVER EVER do that. I don't care who the individual is. Even Hitler himself I would not want that done to. Evil reacted with Evil does not equal Good. Straight Death would be sufficient, let death be the penalty, or if there is a God let him punish.

Blake K. Stoltman



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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Ok,
In response to the original question, "Was Hitler that bad?"

WTF

Of course he was THAT BAD.

But the evil that was the Nazi's wasn't just the evil of one man, but the combined evils of a large group of people that took an ideology that was flawed to begin with, and transformed it into something so horrendous that it is almost beyond comprehension.
What makes the Nazi's different is that they industrialized murder.
They turned the killing of people into an industry, an industry with a massive support infrastructure. An industry that needed tremendous resources, in both manpower to man and guard, and as a consumable commodity, to support it, as it provided nothing of consequence to the nation.
Oh wait the "Final Solution" did provide things to the german people, Lamp shades and shoes,

MADE FROM THE SKIN OF PEOPLE KILLED IN THE CAMPS.

Thats right lamps shades and shoes made from human skin.

Thats evil like, aztec priests wearing the fresh skin of a victim, evil.


Stalin
Pol Pot
Mao
The Gang Of Five, dont get much play
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
The kims
Of all of the other tyrants and despots of the 20th century no one came close to the scale of the depravity the Nazis fostered.


anyway thats my $.02



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by BStoltman
Are you telling me that someone could convince you that it is ok to steal thousands of peoples clothes, rape them, and then send them in for a Gas shower.


Again, that is not how subversion works.

Imagine if you will a vine, one that begins it's life in the soil.

During it's lifetime, it will grow and attach to a tree or perhaps climb a wall in order to gain a better vantage point for photosynthesis, but it does not remain as a single vine, it multiplies and grows at an exponential rate - each seperate vine totally oblivious of each of the other vines.

Now, imagine if you will the deceiver as the manipulator of these vines - except the vines are now his minions.

Those minions may or may not be aware of one another - it is up to the deceiver to decide as to whether or not it is nessecary for them to know of one another's existence.

Now, replace ONE vine with a scientist, and a SECOND vine with a guy who has a pistol - the second vine will enforce the first vine to climb, to acheive greater heights.

Then, take a THIRD vine and replace it with a mechanic, and then a FOURTH and replace it with another guy who has a pistol.

You now have a scientist and a technician capable of engineering, and two people armed with pistols.

Everything you need in order to create a gas chamber.

Similarly, when i mentioned how Hitler would infiltrate his own military with his own men, if there are NUMEROUS men in a single unit they can work in tandem - outnumbering opposition with superior numbers.

And so the parasites begin to worm their way through everything, and every single one of them is working under the interests of the deceiver - who may or may not be letting them in on the big picture of things.

They say everyone has their price, and everyone knows that price depends on whether or not the individual in question is interested in his own betterment or the betterment of others.

For the latter, the price is often the ultimate one - Death, as in "Over my dead body".

A price a parasite like a man like Hitler was perfectly capable of providing.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 07:08 PM
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If you want to know about the type of subversion whereby an individual uses words instead of thugs in order to get what he wants, look at people like the Bush Cru.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 07:20 PM
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I must applaud you on the last post. It was a great analogy, and a great description of Compartmentalization, or the Pyramid, or Corporate Heirarchy. I agree for the most part with your statement. However giving Hitler all the Blame isn't correct. Your scenario makes it sound like No one had a clue what was going on. Yes many didn't and helped without realizing. However many knew quite obviously what was going on, and used it either for Monetary Gain, or shear fun. Once again we are all guilty for not paying attention to our surroundings.

It becomes hard to track a lie when it fall down a vine. But as you can see if you watch the videos of Hitler speaking and the thousands of people cheering, as he took nation after nation over. Hitler was supported by thousands, who knew what he was doing for the most part. Judge a vine by the fruit it bears. If the fruit is death and destruction, then eventually the rest of the vine should notice, and turn and say "Wait a second... Whats happening here." But no one did, at least not until most of Europe had been taken over. I am sorry after the first nation was taken over, I would have raise my hand and said wait a minute whats going on. Not 20 Territories later.

Blake K. Stoltman



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


I admire your knowledge



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