Was Hitler that bad?

When people refer to Hitler they always only mention the genocide of all the nationalities, thats right, it wasnt JUST jews that dies in WW2 but many other nationalities aswell that dont even get a mention.....why? I wonder?

anyway, put the genocide aside for a minute and lets look at Hitler the man, as the Leader of his nation and what he achieved -

His most amazing achievement was his uniting the great mass of the German (and Austrian) people behind him. Throughout his career his popularity was larger and deeper than the popularity of the National Socialist Party. A great majority of Germans believed in him until the very end. In this respect he stands out among almost all of the dictators of the 19th and 20th centuries, which is especially impressive when we consider that the Germans were among the best-educated peoples in the 20th century.

He actually managed to unite the enitre german peoples who were living in seperate semi autonomous states at the time.



and also this-

what contributed to this support were the economic and social successes, for which he fully took credit, during his early leadership: the virtual disappearance of unemployment, the rising prosperity of the masses, the new social institutions, and the increase of German prestige in the 1930s—achievements unparalleled in the histories of other modern totalitarian dictatorships. In spite of the spiritual and intellectual progenitors of some of his ideas there is no German national leader to whom he may be compared. In sum, he had no forerunners—another difference between him and other dictators.

By 1938 Hitler had made Germany the most powerful and feared country in Europe (and perhaps in the world). He achieved all of this without war (and there are now some historians who state that had he died in 1938 before the mass executions began, he would have gone down in history as the greatest statesman in the history of the German people). In fact, he came very close to winning the war in 1940; but the resistance of Britain (personified by Winston Churchill) thwarted him. Nevertheless, it took the overwhelming, and in many ways unusual, Anglo-American coalition with the Soviet Union to defeat the Third Reich; and there are reasons to believe that neither side would have been able to conquer him alone.

He achieved in a decade what no other leader has....taking into account where his nation was when he came to power to where it was just before the outbreak of war.



And now, an exert from the Fuhrer himself -
members.tripod.com...

In a speech on April 28, 1939, Adolf Hitler presented the following list of what he felt were his accomplishments.

"...I overcame chaos in Germany, restored order, enormously raised production in all fields of our national economy...I succeeded in completely resettling in useful production those 7 million unemployed who so touched our hearts...I have not only politically united the German nation but also rearmed it militarily, and I have further tried to liquidate that Treaty sheet by sheet whose 448 Articles contain the vilest rape that nations and human beings have ever been expected to submit to. I have restored to the Reich the provinces grabbed from us in 1919; I have led millions of deeply unhappy Germans, who have been snatched away from us, back into the Fatherland; I have restored the thousand year old historical unity of German living space; and I have attempted to accomplish all that without shedding blood and without inflicting the sufferings of war on my people or any other. I have accomplished all this, as one who 21 years ago still an unknown worker and soldier of my people, by my own efforts..."

And finally, here is how Hitler managed to rebuild the german economy into the powerhouse that it had become -

www.angelfire.com...

Another one of Hitler’s great accomplishments was German economic property under his rule. Since Germany had no colonies, their most pressing concern was to find a way to trade for raw materials. Hitler circumvented the normal trade methods, Hitler found countries to trade with. To make the deal more attractive for these countries, Hitler would subsidize the exports. They could also distribute the raw materials to whoever they wanted, but most importantly they could vary the value of the mark depending on the state of the global economy. This gave Hitler and the Nazis tight control over the German economy. Between 1933 and 1936Germany prospered and their standard of living rose to be higher than that of Britain.

Other German accomplishments that occurred under Hitler are the creations of the Autobahn and the compact car. Another accomplishment of Hitler was the efficiency of the German State. Unlike our present system here in the United States, Germany ran like a finely tuned machine. Government transportation ran on time or even early. It was said that you could set your watch to the trains. Government, banking, and all other government programs were efficient and effective. Hitler was a dictator and a very demanding one. This level of efficiency made it easier for Hitler to first off bring Germany back to a powerful and prosperous state, and secondly it made it easier for him to retain his power. So long as everything ran efficiently and effectively the people were happy. The result of a happy power base is that Hitler gained a carte blanche, and his people would follow

So in conclusion, yes, he was the leader of a political party that was involved and ran massive crimes against humanity, no denying that, but like I said in my intro, take that out of the equation and look at his leadership and his ability to turn Germany around so quickly........kind of makes me think that the US could do with somebody like Hitler to turn their economy around out of the gutter where it currently is.

As a leader he will never ever be appreciated for his accomplishments for it was the actions of his party from his own orders that he will be marked in history for.

I think the reason Hitler receives all the rap is that he has been a major part of Western/European history, rather than, say Mao or Stalin. Stalin indeed murdered far more people than Hitler, but because Hitler, and the Second World War played such a major role in western history, he is often the center of attention.

reply to post by caballero


Hitler was crazy.
They all are.

But Hitler caused WW2, Stalin didnt.

i will leave you with this.

History is a set of lies that people have decided to agree upon.


and this

Winners Get To Write History.

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
reply to post by caballero

 

After all, Hitler started a pretty damn big fight if you hadn't noticed.
[edit on 14-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

Yes he did and he would have in all likelihood WON his war if the Japanese had not dragged the Americans into it. The American public was very very much against getting physically involved in that conflict and we would have stayed out of it.

I think Hitler is epitomized as the ultimate evil leader because it was the first time that level of genocide hit the mainstream world consciousness and it was pretty amazing. He will remain the most infamous because of that alone.

Along those lines Osama will always remain the ultimate "terrorist" in the minds of americans, even if another extremist managed to outdo the 9/11 feat it could never compete. We will never be that shocked again, therefore no later day terrorist will be able to take the place of Osama in the minds of Americans.

There are no degrees of genocide.

There is only genocide.

Simple as that, really.

Originally posted by neformore
There are no degrees of genocide.

There is only genocide.

Simple as that, really.

Genocide is defined by the intent, not the body count.

gen·o·cide -- deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

So yes perhaps the word "level" was misused. There are no levels of genocide, however the end results can vary greatly. Humans have practiced genocide for a very long time, perhaps I should have said it was the first time the world became aware of genocide on that scale. Is that better?

In my view he failed dismally.

He brought the German economy out of the 1929-39 Great Depression?

Well, from out of a gigantic pool of many millions of unemployed - who he motivated with dreams of racialist superiority and a quasi-religious victim mentality from having been defeated in the 1914-18 war (along with the physical liquidation of the trade unions) - he obtained many millions and millions of man-hours of virtually unpaid slave work on infrastructure projects (such as the autobahns) which increased the efficiency of the economy and greatly reduced inflation.

I have to admit, getting huge numbers of people to work for free because they're undr the impression that their destiny is to rule the world is highly original - but Hitler didn't think of it - large infrastructure projects were already well begun during the re-building of Germany after the first war - all Hitler's economic advisors did was replace "work for pay" with militarized "work to build thousand-year empire of the master race". In effect, he made the cost of labour irrelevant as a factor (and the cost of labour is always the biggest factor).

But their mistake was this - and it's a spiritual mistake as much as it is an economic one - EVERYTHING has to be paid for. One way or another, the universe exacts the cost of even a stone being kicked along a road, and the illusion that you make yourself immune from this by murdering anyone who says otherwise is just that.

The majority of the German people stood behind him and even helped to put Jews into work/death camps often turning Jews in or just plain doing street exterminations via stoning, etc...The extreme hatred frenzy he worked the German people into against the Jews was just unreal.

His war wasn't bad enough as he ordered death marches knowing he was going to be defeated. Trying to eliminate witnesses to his and "his people's atrocities was one of the final acts of his reign.

When you think of Genocide you think of Hilter. Just go to Germany now and ask around but don't be surprised if you end up in jail as the shame is still paramount on the minds of the German people.

I know Jews that have gone thru this. They tell me stories of running away as small children while planes flew overhead strafing them with gunfire. Starving in the middle of winter with no firewood, some even resorting to cannibalism to stay alive. Watching as their mothers are torn from them and then being sent to child labor camps.

Arguing over who is the worse mass murderer is not an argument anyone will win. In fact, it's not worth the argument as death, torture, pain and anguish are the only result.

Originally posted by SystemiK
It's rather ridiculous to claim that "Hitler is the only one we hear about ever".

I agree.

We Americans fought against Hitler and the Nazis and we suffered because of him more than the other listed, so perhaps that why people bring his name up first when the list of bad guys comes up.

But he certainly isn't the only one we ever hear about.

Hitler is cited as "the bad guy" because of the specific details of the story. He was hailed as a genius in his own time. He turned Germany around and gave people pride and hope, but then it took this cartoonishly sinister turn. The State-sponsored megalomania, the pomp and circumstance. The man had a presence that I can only compare with someone like Napoleon. Really powerful. Stalin was a methodical killer. He made no attempts to bring Supernature or Metaphysical aspects into the picture. Hitler was all about power derived from a remote mythological past. He wrote legends for his followers. It captures the imagination of Joe Schmo the way a horror movie does. Manson was crazy and evil, but it's those necrophiliacs and cannibals that get the attention. Morbid and sensational. His political career is a lot easier to see an Antichrist analogy with than Stalin or Saddam or whoever. He's good press, I guess. Maybe?

reply to post by caballero


I fear that many people will take your point completely the wrong way, but I for one am very glad you have said it.

Hitler was pure evil, but Stalin was every bit as bad and very probably worse for his evil was almost random, which makes it even scarier in my opinion. Hitler was wrong, and he was absolutely evil, but there was a (very perverse) sense of logic behind his actions. Stalin on the other hand had no visible logic behind his hatred and evil - ordering the deaths of millions without anything but paranoia behind it, and making those left alive second guess everyone and everything.

I also very much agree with your point about the fact that, whilst our youngsters are taught widely about the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis, Stalin and the crimes of the Communists are hardly ever mentioned.

This is amply demonstrated by the fact that if you go to one of the big summer music festivals here in the UK you will find dozens of people waving Soviet flags alongside the rainbows of Greenpeace etc... now surely people would not put up with Swastikas being displayed?

Whats more, when I lived in Brixton, London, I often saw the British Communist party peddling their evil in front of the tube station, with massive Soviet flags and mountains of propaganda, plus portraits of Stalin - now again, would that be tolerated if the Nazis were doing it?

Another point - the former mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, was a former member of the British Communist Party; would London have tolerated a former Nazi? I don't think so.

Also, when I was at art school here in England (the Kent Institute of Art & Design, Maidstone), I witnessed the faculty and other students frequently glamourising Stalin and the Soviet Union. Again, this would never have been tolerated if it was regarding Hitler and the Nazi Party.

Just one final though; it is interesting to remember that the west was fighting the Soviet Union during the 20s and 30s - actively aiding the white Russians, and then the Finns, and that after the Soviets invaded Poland with Nazi Germany in 1939 we were pretty much in a defacto state of war with them. This only changed when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union in 1941. Churchill was so worried that the British people would not be willing to send aid to the Soviets under Stalin (because at the time most Brits viewed Stalin as the same as Hitler), that a massive propaganda campaign was launched to make the British people warm to 'Uncle Joe' - it was incredibly succesfull, and after the war the socialists in the UK used this coerced opinion change to peddle their cause. The results are still seen today across the west. I assume a similar propaganda campaign was launched to convert US public opinion into supporting the Soviets during the dark days of WW2, as the US too had been fighting the Soviets directly during the 20s.

They were both evil, but the Communists and Socialists have definately got off a lot lighter in the history books!

I hear he was fun to watch at partys.
Other than that the jury was in years ago. Yes he was worse than "that"!

Problem is that the Nazis did not just drop their belief system and walk away after the war.

People who try to put a fresh coat of paint on that corpse, are playing with fire. So lets just ask. Are you another stinking Nazi?

Pre War Russsia 40 MIL dead, preparing for the defense.
Hitler 20 MIL dead, not including the war itself.

What kind of body count does it take for you? Let the corpses lay undisturbed.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by Cyberbian]

i was watching a film called hitler: rise of evil. Its all about his life. And actually in his child hood i actually felt sorry for him but when he turned against jews i hated him again. The guy from the full monty was playing Hitler.

i was watching a film called hitler: rise of evil. Its all about his life. And actually in his child hood i actually felt sorry for him because his father seemes to beat him alot and things really didn't go his way.but when he turned against jews i hated him again. The guy from the full monty was playing Hitler. I think he turned against jews after he was declined to go to a art collage and became homeless and saw some rich jews i think.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by welsh alien]

I believe you mean Robert Caryle.

And I am 15, I have reasearched nothing out of school on these tyrants, and i could have told you that Stalin killed many many more people that Hitler. But as was stated earlier hitler was stopped short of his full plan; thousands more would have died, millions even.

And yes we remember Hitler before any others, it was the way he killed people that was so disgusting. Many were tricked into the gas chambers, others were experimented on. To add to your list of things other leaders did....

Hitler+ the Nazis: Sowed live twins together in an attempt to make conjoined twins.

Hitler+ the Nazis: Froze people in iced water, or in winter conditions to test cures for hypothermia. Those that survived were still exectuted.

reply to post by mlmijyd


Yeah, you're right, someone who's intentions were to wipe out all of the Jewish people, and black people, and several others, and bring about a new race of Arians certainly wouldn't have beaten Mao Tse Tung or Stalin had he not been stopped.....pffffft.

C'mon.

I think Hitler is the most Demonized because of the Party he lead. I don't think it's just Hitler, it's the whole Nazi, Third Reich. Hitler was the head, so it's always a reference to Hitler.

I think what the deal with Hitler was, he was very munipilative. He could seduce people with his speech's. He had greater advanced technology than anyone else, and was in the process of creating more. The German's would have had a Nuke way before anyone else.

I believe he is demonized the most because of what he could have become. If he would not have been stopped, he would have taken over the world. Or most of Europe, then probably the U.S. He had to be stopped in his tracks before his power was unreachable by any other nation.

Look at all the German scientist's that came over here with Operation Paperclip. Look at everything they taught us. They would have leveled Britain with V2's. They counterfeited money to be dropped over London to crush it's economy. The German's were a force to be reckoned with.

The other leader's you mention weren't set on World Domination. Hitler was going to wipe out everyone he didn't see fit as a master race class. He was after WORLD genocide. The other's just did bad things to their OWN people or bordering nations. That wasn't good enough for Hitler. Hitler wanted it all. The rest didn't. I think that's the difference.

He had to be stopped sooner rather than later. If it would have been later, he couldn't have been stopped.

The truth of the matter is really very simple. Their is no such thing as Good or Bad, Wrong or Right. It always has been and always will be about interest. We say something is wrong or evil when it is not in our best interest. If something is in or best interest well then its ok or its good. Most will reject what I'm saying and thats ok I understand people reject the truth and accept the lie all the time because its easyer. Think about animals and what the human family does to them because they are just animals who cares right. Think about the lab animals that are in tiny cells being tested on crying in their cells and ask you self what did they do to deserve such treatment. What about the animals that are hunted and killed only to have their head cut off stuffed and placed on a wall. Who cares right!! their just stupid animals. Keep in mind what goes around comes around, I hope I'm not alive to see the day when we become the stupid animals being tested on lock in small cells crying in pain! When it happens to us we will all swear that our captors are evil and what they are doing is wrong. Can you even imagine women being locked in a facility only to produce eggs and have them taken away so that some other type of life form can eat them!!! How would you feel if the tables were turned?

[edit on 5/14/2008 by XcLuciFer]

I don't know that I agree with an assertion i read to the effect that Joe Stalin was a random, unreasonable murderer. What makes you think that? Stalin killed his political enemies. He killed people that were dead weight in his grander scheme of the power and patriarchy of Unlce Joe. This may be evil and crazy in that it's totally sociopathic, but not random and not without strategic considerations for his goals.( As diabolical as they were...)