Chancellor announces £2.7billion tax cut

reply to post by sminkeypinkey


You seem incapable of reasoned discussion without wearing your labour blinkers, so I'm just gonna go ahead and pop you on ignore.

You were wrong, you were proved wrong and you resort to your usual little point by point tactic to somehow try and prove you're right, when the whole world can see you contradicted yourself.

TTFN

Excellent news for me as I am one of the unlucky few who make less the 40g pa.

My vote, first installament of layaway bought and paid for.

Originally posted by Ste2652

I've seen people say this is 'buying votes', and maybe it is - but surely every tax cut is?

Absolutely correct.

What makes it really cheeky is that politics is the only game (I can think of) where people get 'bribed' with their own money... and they STILL fall for it

Originally posted by budski
You seem incapable of reasoned discussion without wearing your labour blinkers

- It's called debate. This isn't a mutual agreement society.

Sorry if you don't understand this but it'd be a very boring place around here if everyone took the same view.

Originally posted by budski
so I'm just gonna go ahead and pop you on ignore.

- Oh the humanity!

Well, if you must......I..... I......I'll just have to try and find a way to make it through without you.

Originally posted by budski
You were wrong, you were proved wrong and you resort to your usual little point by point tactic to somehow try and prove you're right, when the whole world can see you contradicted yourself.

- OK, I guess that's as good as it's going to get.

I'll just take that as an admission that despite going as far as raking up an old post when you thought it suited you before and being challenged on the matter you could not in fact actually turn up posts of me personally "attacking" anyone
(not even yourself).

You enjoy yourself now!

reply to post by Dagar


I like that outlook... it's pretty apt!

A good way of seeing how successful this (and the early debate on Labour's programme for the upcoming Parliament) will be the Crewe by-election next week. At this point it looks like the Conservatives might win, so we'll see if Labour can hold on or not after this announcement.

reply to post by budski


Whilst i'm not a fan of the way sminkeypinkey defends everything labour does, and i swear he'd defend them if they rolled tanks down our streets for our own safety I must defend him here, he never said "all people would be better off", he said "the vast majority" that's a big difference. I think it wrong to twist his words there.

How about that sminkey, a defense of you from me! Also i think sminkey has a sort of charm about him, a respected fo

Brown however has al the charm of a wet dog and half the brains, well ok no that's a slight exaggeration, but my point stands that although the economy in the last 10 years has been good it is not the labour government that caused it. The country was coming into a boom in my opinion just as labour got in. the USa, the UK and a great deal of europe and asian markets all seem to have gone through major growth.

Gordon Brown and the labour government have simply been riding the wave, like a lucky surfer who happens to just hit that perfect bit of sea. Now lets see if they can keep that wave going or if it will crash.

The tories have some policys i'm not happy abot to be honest, however i prefer their policies to labour and what i find terrible is the fact labour keep stealing their ideas. Cameron is accused of not having policies but that's only because every time he brings one out labour nick it.

this tax bailout is a simple backtrack by the government, whilst it needed to be done i agree it shows they made a bad decision to start with, they don't think thigns thorugh and have to react to the people. Now whilst i think it's great they have listened to the people, you have to question a government that blunders fm one thing to the next, they aren't in touch with the people until the people bang that displeasure drum.

Gordon Brown seems to be quite unpopular but i will say this, i don't want the tories to get in, i think things will be getting slightly worse before they get better and i want labour to carry the can for that. If a tory government gets in and things go wrong then they'll be blaimed unfairly.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
How about that sminkey, a defense of you from me! Also i think sminkey has a sort of charm about him, a respected fo

- You're too kind, a pleasant surprise no less.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
this tax bailout is a simple backtrack by the government

- Well each of us is entitles to our view but I do think that such a highly unusual cash injection into the economy has a lot more to do with the bigger picture than whether or not Labour got themselves into an un-Holy mess over the 10p rate abolition (and I agree they did).

The Americans didn't inject £80 billion into their economy for nothing (I think it is something other than just the usual 'normal politics').

TBH I'm now wondering if we ought to expect more Gov spending in the Nov statement and in the next budget.
I'm wondering just what economic news they know that we don't.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


That's the thing - I in no way twisted his words, read the whole thread.

That's just the spin he put on it because he did an about face and wanted to defend broon at all costs - he defended the abolishment of the 10p tax rate, then did an about turn and defended the decision to give people the money back.

Where I come from that's called hypocrisy, and he stinks of it every time he types.

I really don't care for these rabid socialists who think they are always right and can do no wrong - plus I'm pretty sure he's actually a polly toynbee clone, and she's an absolutely despicable woman.

So he's on ignore and will stay that way.

[edit on 14/5/2008 by budski]

reply to post by budski


Well i think putting him on ignore is quite childish when he/she seems to be very smart and worth debating. Furthermore, i'm the first to call someone on hypocrisy but i think your utter hatred of him defending labor so often is making you see hypocrisy where there is none.

So back to the issue for me! I don't think Gordon Brown will be in power much longer, his own party hate him and he sways so much on every issue it's shocking. The man has no conviction and his "flash bulb" smile as i call it i find deeply disturbing. This little tax break, is trying to make up for a mistake, but he keeps lurching from one mistake to the next!

Can we truly have faith in a government that keeps making mistakes? That keeps going against what the people want only to backtrack faster than an escaping criminal?

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


It's not hatred - far from it.

I just get sick of hearing the propaganda - he doesn't debate, he throws a party political braodcast out, complete with campbell spin and is unable to take part in reasoned discussion unless it's pro-labour.

Anything tory and it's immediately branded as bad, until labour adopt the policy, when it suddenly becomes good.

You can't debate with someone who refuses to see any other point of view.

So think what you like - I've had a year of this, and I'm done with it.

Originally posted by budski
I just get sick of hearing the propaganda - he doesn't debate, he throws a party political braodcast out, complete with campbell spin and is unable to take part in reasoned discussion unless it's pro-labour.

Agreed but maybe we should stick to the thread and not keep bashing a single member.

Originally posted by budski
Anything tory and it's immediately branded as bad, until labour adopt the policy, when it suddenly becomes good.

Again agreed, its amazing how labour keep stealing tory policy, they do it so blantantly.

Originally posted by budski
You can't debate with someone who refuses to see any other point of view.

Of course you can, that's a great person to debate with, you seem to want to convert people to your point of view, i learnt a long time ago that never happens. The more you argue your point the more they'll stick to theres like a limpet on a rock.

Originally posted by budski
So think what you like - I've had a year of this, and I'm done with it.

That's a shame, i've seen some of your back and fourths and i've enjoyed reading them.

So I understand this tax cut right, I will not benefit as I am a high rate tax payer. The Chancellor is saying that my hard work is not worth as much as some else's hard work.

I work hard with long hours, yet this Government does not see fit to reward all those that work. There is something wrong with the sytem that does not reward hard work.

I am being taxed more to pay for this tax cut. This cut tax should go across the board, after all it is my money.

As usual, a Government that cares less about those that work hard and try to make a difference.

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
So I understand this tax cut right, I will not benefit as I am a high rate tax payer.

- In relation to this new abolition of the '10p starting tax rate' compensation business (only) that is correct.

The tax threshold of higher earners will be adjusted so that this new 'tax cut' is neutral to higher rate taxpayers.

They will only see over the year the usual inflation adjustment to the threshold (now altered slightly to remove any bonus from this latest move) and the new reduction in the basic rate of income tax from 22% to 20%!.

This whole issue is one where the tory media have done their best to confuse the public.

It was a minority of our lower paid people that lost out after the abolition of the 10p starting rate and who's 'loss' was not compensated for by the redution in the basic rate of tax from 22% to 20%.
These are the people this new cut is intended to compensate.

People such as yourself (higher rate taxpayers particularly but also many basic rate payers) already benefited and were net gainers from the reduction in the basic rate of income tax being cut from 22% to 20% (and the threshold increase).

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
The Chancellor is saying that my hard work is not worth as much as some else's hard work.

- No he isn't.

He is saying that scarce resources are being aimed at the least well off and those who would have lost out otherwise.

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
I work hard with long hours, yet this Government does not see fit to reward all those that work. There is something wrong with the sytem that does not reward hard work.

- I'm sure you do but you do live in a relatively low-tax country already - a country where the basic rate of income tax has just been cut by this Gov from 22% to 20%.

This is a prime example of masterful spin by the tory party and their press friends (aided and abetted by the Gov's own blinkered outlook - they ought to have seen this coming a mile off) - this Gov makes a significant cut in the basic rate of tax with most of the population benefiting and yet are portrayed for an extended period as hurting the lowest paid.

However; this is also a country with substantial benefits of residence that stretch far beyond a mere marginal tax rate.

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
I am being taxed more to pay for this tax cut.

- No you are not.

You would have benefited twice had they not made the adjustment
(once from the tax cut in the 'basic rate of income tax' from 22% to 20% and a second time by the adjustment to offset the loss to the lowest earners of the 10p starting rate).

That was never intended originally and can hardly be described as 'fair' given that you would already benefit from the reduction in the basic rate of tax.

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
This cut tax should go across the board, after all it is my money.

- Why should the Gov be effectively barred from aiming the benefit to the least well off or have their intended efforts diluted by having to spread a the resources to those already much better off?

Why should you benefit twice?

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
As usual, a Government that cares less about those that work hard and try to make a difference.

- Well naturally you're entitled to your opinions about the Gov but at least do it on the basis of the facts of the matter.

The Gov has aimed the benefit of this tax-cut to the least well off as it was the least well off that were unintentionally going to suffer from the loss of the 10p starting rate of tax and who would not have benefited from the reduction in the basic rate of tax falling from 22% to 20%.


[edit on 18-5-2008 by sminkeypinkey]

Just so you know, this thread was talked about on the most recent Above Politics Show #17.

Of course, what the government gives with one hand, they take away with the other, and this cynical little ploy will be counterbalanced by the 2p per litre on fuel at the end of the summer "for environmental reasons" and the new car tax laws which are currently proposed.

What has happened with Labour is the same as what happened with them previously, and the Tories in between - they have got too big for their collective boots, aren't listening to the general population and to be frank, it will get their asses kicked out at the next general election and stick them in the wilderness for 10 years.

Originally posted by neformore
this cynical little ploy will be counterbalanced by the 2p per litre on fuel at the end of the summer

- Interesting interpretation of what has been going on and the balance between a possible 2p increase in fuel tax and a 2% cut in the basic rate of income tax to 20% - the lowest rate for 75yrs.

This being in addition to the conpensation for the loss of the old 10p starting rate.....which it is said will leave most basic rate tax-payers even better off than they would have been with 'just' the fall in the basic rate of tax.

It's also gone pretty much unnoticed and unremarked that the increases in the starting tax threshold will take a significant additional number of people out of tax altogether (600,000 according to Gov estimates link.

......and if the Gov does not impose the fuel duty increase, again?

I'd be interested to hear if you can give any other examples of any other UK Gov shelving already announced fuel tax increases
(and on several occasions as this Gov has done since it came into office in 1997).

You can't.

Personally I think it's a dumb move.
The Oil companies merely increase the price of fuel and pocket the increase themselves, as they have done previously, often with little hesitation or even an attempt to look decent about it.

Originally posted by neformore "for environmental reasons"

- Actually it was the tory party that introduced the 'fuel tax escalator' for environmental reasons and this Labour Gov that did away with it.

Similarly despite imposing large tax rises on fuel there never was a tory Gov with changed it's plans and did not impose a fuel tax rise that had already been announced.

Originally posted by neformore
and the new car tax laws which are currently proposed.

- Ah yes, the other tory tactic.

Get us all to be outraged on behalf of the gas-guzzler owners.

Naaa, I'm only too happy paying reduced vehicle taxes on my fuel efficient town car, thanks.
I'd very happily see the menace of those ridiculous SUV-type trucks banned from our streets.

Originally posted by neformore
and to be frank, it will get their asses kicked out at the next general election and stick them in the wilderness for 10 years.

- There's probably 2 years to go until the next general election.

I wouldn't be so quick to make such sweeping judgements just yet if I were you.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Whilst i'm not a fan of the way sminkeypinkey defends everything labour does, and i swear he'd defend them if they rolled tanks down our streets for our own safety

I must defend him here, he never said "all people would be better off", he said "the vast majority" that's a big difference. I think it wrong to twist his words there.

I disagree.

The "vast majority" equates to "all people" in a democracy. 51% equates to all people in a democracy.

What I'm really interested to see is whether sminkey is new labour or old labour... care to enlighten us, comrade sminkey?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I disagree.

The "vast majority" equates to "all people" in a democracy. 51% equates to all people in a democracy.

- Oh come on, don't be so silly.

Quite clearly whilst 51% of the vote is a majority it hardly encompasses "the vast majority" of all people (particularly when the numbers voting are, relatively speaking, so low these days).

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
What I'm really interested to see is whether sminkey is new labour or old labour... care to enlighten us, comrade sminkey?

- I've always thought of myself as more a social democrat in the wider European sense.

I'm all for being cooperative & helpful to those with wealth & in business providing they accept their share of the burden in maintaining a cohesive and relatively harmonious society (which I very definitely do believe exists).
Equally a state which offers meaningful social assistance ought not be the means nor an excuse for a life wasted or restricted.

IMO it's all about balance, neither a wholly 'capitalist' path is workable or desirable and nor is a wholly 'socialist' one.

Like I said, European countries (particularly the more northern ones such as Germany, Denmark, Holland) seem to have the balance more 'right' than most.
IMO these countries offer an excellent standard of living coupled with social assistance at a genuinely helpful level when it is required producing a country with a society more at ease with itself, which can be seen in low crime rates and excellent educational attainment and public health.