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Is The Fed Really a Product of The NWO or is Disinformation Being Used To Make Them Look Bad.

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posted on May, 19 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


From your little Linkidy link ..

Federal
Reserve and
Government
accounts 2
(2)


2007 - Mar 8,849.7
June 8,867.7
Sept 9,007.7
Dec 9,229.2


But.. It does not say what type of security nor what type of account. In a sense, its like borrowing from your self to make it appear as if money is there and it's really not. Or, my next guess would be Government offices or branches investing their own budget back into Federally backed securities to increase their own budget.

However, after asking a trader in my office, he gave me a better description of these numbers.





Retirement accounts.
Federal Retirement accounts indexed into Federal Bonds, also, municipals and of course other market securities. However, it would not be improbable that a majority of said debt is for retirement and benefit uses.

But either way, that is ownership of Federal Securities.

It is not a loan.

I know the Gov issues securities, and I don't care who the hell buys them, so long as they are bought. However, I am looking for evidence the Gov borrows money from banks in outright loans.




posted on May, 19 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by mybigunit
 



That is not what I asked........

Is there ANY EVIDENCE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TAKES LOANS FROM BANKS OR THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!!!!!????????

National Debt from my studies and classes to attain my license to trade registered securities.. National Debt is in the form of Bonds for the vast majority, to which individuals and entities buy and the Gov pays interest.

So...

Answer my question damnit!



Umm either you are really trying to confuse me or I do not understand what you are asking. I just showed you the governments own numbers that shows the money we have borrowed, who from, and how much we owe them. I dont know what other proof I can get you. Thats basically what a bond is its an iou. Its like a loan....If we werent getting loans or borrowing money we wouldnt have a debt.





In finance, a bond is a debt security, in which the authorized issuer owes the holders a debt and is obliged to repay the principal and interest (the coupon) at a later date, termed maturity. A bond is simply a loan in the form of a security with different terminology.



[edit on 19-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Umm at the top of page 3 It says Estimated Ownership of U.S. Treasury Securities

Then it breaks it down into all the different types of holders and how much is owed. It lists anything and everything you could ever want to know about our debt.



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 




As far as the Argentine cattle Baron who has a lot of money to spend would I buy US bonds or Filipino I would choose neither and but gold and sit on it. If you don’t want a long time investment like that then maybe Id consider the US bonds.


As you may have read at Wikipedia more private gold is held in India than any other country. In fact, they have about as much as the US of A has officially. I think we agreed it was about 225 million ounces. Troy. (I worked it out once and it is my memory that 12 troy ounces are 85% of 16 avoirdupois ounces). I hated those tests that asked if 12 is 85% of 16, and one of the 16 is 28 grams, then what Is the value of one of the 12? Ugh!

Gold. It was $20 an ounce forever. Then it went to $35 but you couldn’t have any. Then it went first to $70 and then it shot straight to $800 and we thought we were in Heaven. Then it fell back to $200. For a long time it stayed in the high $200s and then the high $300s and then in the low to mid $400s. It stayed there for years. Then it skyrocketed to $1,000 but may have fallen back to the $800s. I pay no attention to the price of gold.

As in investment, that is a misnomer. The intrinsic value of gold is around $200. That is, the cost to produce it and the price users are willing to pay. The remainder of the price is esthetic appeal and a human desire to hold it, the most beautiful and one of the most durable metals on the planet.

Generally when times become uncertain, the price of gold rises because many people feel it is a secure way to hold their wealth.
It is easy to transport and it can be used for trade. When times are return to more predictable times, the price falls. I am talking small quantities of gold in easily recognizable coins or tablets such as Credit Suisse offers to the public. Quarter gram, half gram, etc.

There are many coins, the US Eagle, Mexican Peso, South African Rand, Austrian Shilling, and I’m sure there are more. I have never handled one of those coins but I image all have the ribbed edge to discourage “shaving” or “trimming” the edges. If you have an accurate scale, you can be fairly sure the coins are not out and out counterfeits. But not absolutely certain. If enough money was involved it would be no trouble for a big operator to melt down South African Rands and then debase the metal by adding 75% lead. They could then recast the coins and you could not easily or cheaply tell the difference.

Assay. The only way to know what you are buying is to have the metal assayed. That is very expensive to have done and guarantees only the bars or coins you actually assayed. I see no harm in having 5% of your savings in gold coins. Beyond that, I would not go.



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


I am well aware of what a Security is and what type of Security a Bond is.

However, a Bond is not a "loan" in the sense that "we borrow money from ourselves" is..

Of which you can see my quesstimation as to why the Federal Reserve owns Bonds and that that also includes EVERY SINGLE Government agency and department -- like the Military for instance.

And it thus, most likely, consisting of retirement and other investments.

However.

I asked "Has the Federal Government ever taken a loan out from a bank?"

and so far the answer is "no, no they have not".



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



As far as the Argentine cattle Baron who has a lot of money to spend would I buy US bonds or Filipino I would choose neither and but gold and sit on it. If you don’t want a long time investment like that then maybe Id consider the US bonds.


As you may have read at Wikipedia more private gold is held in India than any other country. In fact, they have about as much as the US of A has officially. I think we agreed it was about 225 million ounces. Troy. I worked it out once and it is my memory that 12 troy ounces (1 troy pound) are 85% of 16 avoirdupois ounces(1 pound av.). I hated those tests that asked “if 12 is 85% of 16, and one of the 16 is 28 grams, then what Is the value of one of the 12?” Ugh!

Gold. It was $20 an ounce forever. Then it went to $35 but you couldn’t have any. Then it went first to $70 and then it shot straight to $800 and we thought we were in Heaven. Then it fell back to $200. For a long time it stayed in the high $200s and then the high $300s and then in the low to mid $400s. It stayed there for years. Then it skyrocketed to $1,000 2 months ago but may have fallen back to the $800s today. I pay no attention to the price of gold.

As in investment, that is a misnomer. The intrinsic value of gold is around $200. That is, the cost to produce it and the price users are willing to pay. The remainder of the price is in its esthetic appeal and a universal human desire to hold it, the most beautiful and one of the most durable metals on the planet.

Generally when times become uncertain, the price of gold rises because many people feel it is a secure way to hold their wealth. It is easy to transport and it can be used for trade. In the old days people would sew it in their clothes. When times are return to more predictable times, the price falls.

I am talking of small quantities of gold in easily recognizable coins or tablets such as Credit Suisse offers to the public. Quarter gram, half gram, etc. There are many coins, the US Eagle, Mexican Peso, South African Rand, Austrian Shilling, and I’m sure there are more. I have never handled one of those coins but I image all have the ribbed edge to discourage “shaving” or “trimming” the edges. If you have a real accurate balance scale, you can be fairly sure the coins are not out and out counterfeits. But not absolutely certain.

If enough money was involved it would be no trouble for a big operator to melt down South African Rands and then debase the metal by adding 50% lead. They could then recast the coins and you could not easily or cheaply tell the difference.

Assay. The only way to know what you are buying is to have the metal assayed. That is very expensive to have done and guarantees only the bars or coins you actually assayed. I see no harm in having 5% of your savings in gold coins. Beyond that, I would not go.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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Hey guys...think maybe we're not supposed to understand? Which makes the discussion today all the more meaningful


Whenever the topic of US deficit spending comes-up, I think of that Humphrey Borgart line from The Treasure of Sierra Madre: Hey mister, can you stake a fellow American to a meal? The government borrows from any person or entity that pays federal taxes...from everyone that contributes to the social security trust, and from any person or institution that invests in a variety of government debt instruments (your pension fund?).

On the other hand....



Originally posted by Rockpuck

I know the Gov issues securities, and I don't care who the hell buys them, so long as they are bought. However, I am looking for evidence the Gov borrows money from banks in outright loans.


Hi RP. I think this is what you are referring to. Debt Monetization. In a period of slow economic activity, with federal tax revenues declining, and a decline in public purchase of treasury instruments...the gubmn't has, and will, issue treasuries to the Federal Reserve Bank in order correct a deficit in the current account balance. The Fed creates 'new money' for this transaction, and the debt is recorded as an asset on Fed' books. Basically, this could be described as turning within to finance debt.

Here's the part I don't understand. If I purchase a government debt instrument at a specified yield...and the gubmn't uses a percentage of my tax dollars (and yours) to pay that yield (yes, they do)...aren't I actually providing a percentage of my own profit


When dealing with crippling deficits at the state level, the new government strategy is to borrow against 'future' lottery revenues...call it securitization....cross it's fingers and hope like hell the tickets sell


Schwarzenegger urges lottery bonds for budget





[edit on 19-5-2008 by OBE1]



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 04:37 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 



Gold. It was $20 an ounce forever. Then it went to $35 but you couldn’t have any. Then it went first to $70 and then it shot straight to $800 and we thought we were in Heaven. Then it fell back to $200. For a long time it stayed in the high $200s and then the high $300s and then in the low to mid $400s. It stayed there for years. Then it skyrocketed to $1,000 2 months ago but may have fallen back to the $800s today. I pay no attention to the price of gold.



Rome didn't fall in a day dw, and neither will the Dollar. Secular bull markets can run for decades. Never straight-up...always with over-heats and corrective phases, i.e. May 2006, and the recent correction from $1,032 in Asia. If you pull-up a basic Dollar/Gold chart, you can see precisely when this market started. Look at the powerful divergence beginning in 2002. It's obvious that the PTB wants a weaker Dollar...the effort is to manage an 'orderly' decline. Word on the street is the PTB actually wants Gold higher. They say the relic is being groomed to resume it's role as a monetary control. No, not as convertible backing for the currency a-la the antiquated Gold Standard...but a new twist on the old Gold Cover Clause. The GCC that was gradually sterilized...then fully discarded in 1968.



As in investment, that is a misnomer. The intrinsic value of gold is around $200. That is, the cost to produce it and the price users are willing to pay. The remainder of the price is in its esthetic appeal and a universal human desire to hold it, the most beautiful and one of the most durable metals on the planet.


Production costs vary from mine to mine. Variables include: the political climate, regulatory commission, and environmental standards of the host country, geological structure, ore-body composition and mineralization, ore grades, depth, smelter costs etc etc etc. The average production costs for top tier producers are currently running around $450oz. Energy inputs being a main driver. In short, production costs are ramping.

Tonight, as I type, 'users' are paying $908.30 spot in the Asian markets...investment demand...dealers...jewlery demand.



Assay. The only way to know what you are buying is to have the metal assayed. That is very expensive to have done and guarantees only the bars or coins you actually assayed. I see no harm in having 5% of your savings in gold coins. Beyond that, I would not go.



Hey, I sincerely respect you Don...but that's not accurate. An investor wanting to take physical possession can buy safe bullion from an number of reputable, certified dealers, and leave his magnet at home.....or pay top dollar and buy on-line directly from the US Mint for that matter. They're trustworthy...right? U2U me and I'll give you a reliable source or two


Given the strength of the fundamentals, 5% percent seems a little skimpy Don. With a little homework first, maybe a goal of 10% - 15% with a couple bars of silver thrown-in for extra bulk & profit



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by OBE1
 


Excellent posts OBE1 I think we generally agree.

However, like we will both agree that since yields on Government Securities are paid for by tax dollars, we all in a sense pay our own interest or at least a fraction of it..

It would also appear that the Government borrowing against the Federal Reserve in the method of issuing security contracts to the Bank is no different then me, short on cash, taking a napkin and writing One Dollar and a smiley face on it and spending it at Walmart like real money!

However, as the Government does apparently borrow in the method of out right loans in the guise of issued Securities to them selves, the Federal Government DOES hold the power to liquidate any bank in the Country. Not only that, but they also hold the power the legally void out any Security Contract, especially ones written to themselves.

While the Federal Reserve may be made up of member banks on the private sector of banking, they are still acting as the Federal Oversight on all banks on behalf of the Federal Government. The ideas of a centralized bank to ensure protection against a dysfunctional unorganized banking system pre 1930's has been around since the Jefferson era. However, many forget it's still controlled by the Federal Government, Congress to be exact.

And when you think of it this way, the Federal Government issuing Federalized Securities to an agency working for the Federal Government is... hilarious. Then again, it is also no wonder that our currency has been in an endless free fall for quite some time now!



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Sorry I went to bed early last night so Ill try and get some responses rolling.

I now understand your question and it could be answered in two ways. One the OBE1 way or two there is my more simplistic way. If our government spends our money that they get from us and spend more than we have then what would that government have to do? They have to borrow that money or print the money. Now under our constitution the government should be printing its own money and setting the value and not having a bank do it for them. If the FED didnt exist then we would print our own money if it couldnt be borrowed. Because the government is doing it itself there is no interest to be paid on it. Right now the 5 trillion of our debt is with the fed. We pay interest on that. Essentially borrowing money that is ours because once again a government ran by the constitution would be printing its own money not having to have it printed by the FED and paying interest on it.

[edit on 20-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by OBE1
 





Here's the part I don't understand. If I purchase a government debt instrument at a specified yield...and the gubmn't uses a percentage of my tax dollars (and yours) to pay that yield (yes, they do)...aren't I actually providing a percentage of my own profit


Yes where as if our government printed the money itself and not through a FED/Bank there would not need to be interest paid and that money saved in interest could pay down the national debt. The reason why they borrow the money is to keep inflation tame on all this money that we spend but eventually the interest will start to strangle us.



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 




If our government spends our money that they get from us and spend more than we have then what would that government have to do? They have to borrow that money or print the money.


Yes and no.

Yes, they borrow money. I hold Federal Bonds myself personally, I hold Federal Debt. The Federal Government issues a sale of bonds, giving them a maturity date and a yield rate. At this time, my bonds that I currently have mature in one year. Kinda stupid if you think about it, a bond for one year earning I think 1% interest haha.. but it beats the bank accounts, and a CD is even lower interest rates, and an Annuity or other form of security like mutual funds or something tie money up for up to 10 years!

So people put money into bonds for various reasons, mostly to hedge investments.

It's like..... voluntary taxation .. only, the government is paying you for your money.

This is not a new concept, it's an old concept. So the Government uses the money from the sale of these bonds to spend on any number of programs. Like war for instance. Every hear of a War Bond?

So the government borrows from her people? So what?

I don't have a problem with that at all so long as they remain to have the ability to back their own securities.

But then there is just printing money.. not brightest idea by all means.. hyper inflation and so forth. Typically American Inflation is unavoidable because of the way our economy works.. people expect pay increases and thus, when they get them, we have a period of economic growth where people have to much money. Then the price of goods like Food and Gas catch up to them as wages go stagnet and there is monetary devaluation.

The government, imo, tries to keep personal inflation away from the people by creating a seperate monetary system that only governs themselves. They borrow money against themselves in an effort to increase money supply with securities sold to themselves.. sort of.. legally loaning your self money, yet attaching a system to ensure hyper inflation does not take place -- like paying an interest on your own debt.

At least, that is the way I currently see it.. I am just throwing around ideas here because.. everyone has a different answer.

I will not however accept that the Federal Government takes outright loans from BANKS at outragious interest rates like so many conspiracy theorist believe.

Stupid system? Maybe, maybe not.. it HAS worked hasn't it?



If the FED didnt exist then we would print our own money if it couldnt be borrowed.


We still print our own money.. the Fed acts like an oversight for banks. I have not seen any evidence that they officially "mint" the money.

Besides, if we just created money out of thin air.. well .. that would cause extreme inflation. OH.. we need 100 billion dollars! POOF! there it is! .. Ya, the world would see right through that lol.. but if we issue bonds and other securities and people from all over the world buy them to fuel our cash reserves it's more "controled" form of inflation .. which would essentially be equal to the interest rate being paid.

The Government pays interest to ANYONE who holds a security product, including my self of course, a guy in Japan, China, England, hill jack in Kentucky..

Everyone gets interest for loaning the government money.

It sure beats having to pay the government bills via taxes! Get rid of revenue securities the Government issues and our taxes would go up to about 40%-50% taxation of our income to pay for a government that issued NO debts!

Sorry, I will take the Gov borrowing money from obscure locations to paying anymore tax for this god forsaken Socialist nation!

And my spell checker broke, so don't mind my apparent retardedness..



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


........You can't "Pay down the national debt" ..

Because the National Debt -- outstanding security instruments..

Have specified yields and MATURITY dates..

Which come in 1 year, 5 year, 10 year and so on..

So you could say "lets pay off the national debt!" and bond holders would go "uhh .. ya, when my debts mature!" .. soo .. in 10 years you can just.. not take out a bond to replace the matured one!

The reason why you see the "national debt" going "down" is not "paying off debts" but rather, NOT issuing MORE debts to replace matured debts.

The problem is however, the Government issues WAY TO MANY debts.. if you sell one debt with a 10 year maturity, you have to issue one of those every year for 10 years, increasing to 5 10 year notes to 1 because the budget needs increase.

And this is where the REAL problem with National Debt comes from..

If you get what I mean.

[edit on 5/20/2008 by Rockpuck]



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 09:24 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 





But then there is just printing money.. not brightest idea by all means.. hyper inflation and so forth. Typically American Inflation is unavoidable because of the way our economy works.. people expect pay increases and thus, when they get them, we have a period of economic growth where people have to much money. Then the price of goods like Food and Gas catch up to them as wages go stagnet and there is monetary devaluation.


Inflation isnt just because of pay increases. It can cause inflation but like in the case we have no pay has gone no where but as you see everything else is going up. Wages have been stagnant for the past 15 years wheres the deflation at? Inflation is going to happen regardless of wages because its how our system of printing and borrowing money we dont have. Our wages might as well go up too!!



I will not however accept that the Federal Government takes outright loans from BANKS at outragious interest rates like so many conspiracy theorist believe.


You have to accept it. Its what is going on. Guy you can word bonds any way you want but selling government bonds is a fancy way of saying the government is getting a loan and the bond is a form of contract. You can sugar coat it any way you like but a loan is a loan if you have to borrow money and pay interest then you are getting a loan my friend so just apply the KY accordingly. There is no conspiracy there its hard fact.




Besides, if we just created money out of thin air.. well .. that would cause extreme inflation. OH.. we need 100 billion dollars! POOF! there it is! .. Ya, the world would see right through that lol.. but if we issue bonds and other securities and people from all over the world buy them to fuel our cash reserves it's more "controled" form of inflation .. which would essentially be equal to the interest rate being paid.


Welcome to reality. Look at the M3 numbers I posted above in fact instead of creating 100 Billion of money we have created 4 trillion in the past 2 years alone or 40%.



We still print our own money.. the Fed acts like an oversight for banks. I have not seen any evidence that they officially "mint" the money.


The mint mints the money correct but its done through the FED and we have to pay interest on that money. Because we are borrowing that money from the FED.



It sure beats having to pay the government bills via taxes! Get rid of revenue securities the Government issues and our taxes would go up to about 40%-50% taxation of our income to pay for a government that issued NO debts!


We do pay 40% to 50% in taxes its just in an indirect way. Think about it. 450 billion paid in interest that has to come from somewhere and right now its coming from our taxes. On top of that we pay the inflation tax because of the governments vision that hay we can borrow and print all this money so lets spend more and more. Soon like I said above all this borrowing we will be paying a trillion a year in interest only. I promise you will see your taxes rise then. Eventually it will come to that unless something changes.




And my spell checker broke, so don't mind my apparent retardedness..


Ive accepted you so far not gonna let you down now
Now printing all this money without having it taken up by these other entities will cause mad inflation like I stated above and having some of the burden taken on by China has staved off inflation but now we have to pay interest on it so I guess the fundamental question is is it worth paying billions in interest to keep inflation at bay?



You say you would rather the government borrow all the money and pay interest on it instead of raising the taxes to 50% to cover for the stupid spending but let me partake on something here....

Lets say you buy a 5 year right now at 3% lets say you put 10k. In 5 years you would have about 12K let me know if my math is wrong. Ok lets say you paid 10k in taxes 2007. 22% of your tax dollar is going to pay the interest on all the borrowed money. So of that 10k in taxes you paid $2200 of that is going to interest thats just 1 year of taxes. Over 5 years you will have paid over 11k of your tax dollars to the interest on the debt and the kicker is the interest is going higher and higher.... and all for what 2k you get back....

[edit on 20-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


Bond type contracts go back into history.. well before the Fed, and will be there well after the Fed leaves.

Most wars throughout history where financed by individuals for instance, in the form of contracts like Bonds.

So .. No, I don't consider it a bad thing.. however, the US Government uses it for everything so I think we agree with this..

But you cannot just .. not have bonds lol .. and you can't just "print money' when ever you need it..

That is basic economics right there, a system like that wouldn't last a year before it collapsed.

And if you went to the Gold Standard well .. you would HAVE to use bonds. There could be no other alternative aside from taking money directly from the people.

And yes, we probably pay more in taxes then any nation on Earth when you take into effect EVERY tax we have to pay.. however.. it would be MUCH higher if we did not rely on bonds.

Right now, the Gov has no problem paying the debts, so I don't worry about it.. it's not "out of control" just yet.. although the war is stressing the ratio of debt to GDP production .. I don't think we can carry on the war for much longer with out direct consequences.

I see a tax increase with the next President.

And while the Fed is not Federal by any means, I don't think it is entirely autonomous as so many believe..



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 



........ You can't "Pay down the national debt" .. Because the National Debt -- outstanding security instruments .. Have specified yields and MATURITY dates .. Which come in 1 year, 5 year, 10 year and so on.. So you could say "lets pay off the national debt!" and bond holders would go "uhh .. ya, when my debts mature!" . . if you sell one debt with a 10 year maturity, you have to issue one of those every year for 10 years, increasing to 5 10 year notes to 1 because the budget needs increase. And this is where the REAL problem with National Debt comes from .. If you get what I mean.


I think we have a disconnect here. I think a large part of the problem in understanding this issue over the Federal Reserve system stems from not distinguishing PRIVATE enterprise and operating methods with PUBLIC functions and responsibilities of governments. Sovereign governments.

The US Government is unique. It is a sovereign state. Such entities have ALL POWER. The state can for instance, take your life. The more democratic or liberal of those states have strict rules which are followed when doing so. But in the final analysis a sovereign state cannot be compared to a private business or undertaking. Government SERVES and should not PROFIT.

Sovereign states are empowered to PRINT money. No private business can do that. No private citizen can do that. Well, legally anyway.

Debt is a shift in wealth from one to the use or benefit of another. As long as it is done regularly and transparently, it is useful and accepted. But in all cases one benefits whereas another suffers a detriment.

So what you ask? Well, to me it means among other things the US Government is not a profit or loss business. It means that whoever is in control - OBE1's PTB - can decide what policy to follow and that helps some, and inevitably hurts others.

For me the best analogy is found in looking back to the argument of the late 1890s when William Jennings Bryan championed cheap money best expressed in his slogan urging the ratio “16 to 1" for silver to gold. The US was to mint 16 silver dollars for each gold dollar. That DECISION is within the purview of a sovereign state. The relative scarcity of gold compared to the relative plenty of silver made that feasible. Either way, it was and is constitutional. The Congress was granted the power to declare the value of money. See Note 1. Such great power was not reserved to the free market. It authorizes a planned economy! (The Wealth of Nations was published in 1776).

Those who already had money wanted it to remain scarce and expensive. To command high interest on borrowed money. That benefited the rich. Those who were cash poor wanted cheap money - allowing low interest on loans.

Conclusion.
Ordinary rules of banking and commerce do not apply to sovereign governments. They have inherent power to MAKE the rules.


Note 1.
US Con. Article 1, Section 8. “The Congress shall have power . . .
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.” End of US Con Quote.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by mybigunit
 


But you cannot just .. not have bonds lol .. and you can't just "print money' when ever you need it..

I see a tax increase with the next President.


You can just print money out of thin air but it will be inflationary and printing money out of thin air is what the government has been doing and on top of printing money our of thin air we are paying interest on it to our FED. If they only spent what the collected in taxes then we wouldnt have to get loans or sell bonds however you want to put it. But no we need to police the world and police here at home and run the government welfare state. That all costs money.

As far as the tax increase well its probably needed because someone has to pay for all this debt this war has racked up otherwise eventually yes the interest will strangle us and the sad thing is a majority of this interest we shouldnt be paying in the first place because its going to the fed which is illegal and unconstitutional. We get the double whammy from both the huge inflation tax and the interest we pay.

Once again its hard to believe but it is the truth and if everyone understood it there would be riots in the streets. The reason why to me gold and silver backed money is better is because it

A. Keeps government spending in check

B. Ensures paranoid people like me that my dollar will always have some sort of "intrinsic" value in which our current currency does not have.



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Let us not discuss this topic with an elephant in the room.

America is a Fascist State. It will operate as a private enterprise because, for all intent and purposes, it operates as a Corporation.

Yes, the United States operates as a sovereign country. HOWEVER. It is also obvious that the United States operates as a Corporation, as corporations have an ease of building wealth and power from the labors of others .. essentially instead of doing the nasty business of taxing people beyond what must be taxed -- which we are already an over taxed people, the government issues everything short of stock in the country it's self. People buy them, and the government operates from these funds.. no different then a Corporation.

It works for now. I can still go buy my Big Mac. It won't last forever, but nothing does.

But the country could still change everything, it still holds infinite power.. in fact, that is the ONLY reason the Fed can sell it's debt.. the infinite power of our nation can ensure it's backers survival.



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


We are far beyond the point of "keeping government spending in check" .. Bill Clinton did it.. but he also F'd up a lot of programs and departments..

We will spend our way into oblivion, then collapse and something new will replace us.

Inflation is bad enough, but to stop the sale of government bonds would cause our currency to drop like a rock and you will truly see economic hell. I mean sh** we are already having problems selling more debt.. at our last auction few showed up.. sign of the times.

It's a defunct system.



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by mybigunit
 


We are far beyond the point of "keeping government spending in check" .. Bill Clinton did it.. but he also F'd up a lot of programs and departments..

We will spend our way into oblivion, then collapse and something new will replace us.

Inflation is bad enough, but to stop the sale of government bonds would cause our currency to drop like a rock and you will truly see economic hell. I mean sh** we are already having problems selling more debt.. at our last auction few showed up.. sign of the times.

It's a defunct system.


Gold Standard Baby!!!!!! Thats where we are heading this is why gold is high because all the smart money is buying it knowing that something is coming. I dont disagree it has worked so far and yes you can buy your Big Mac which you refer to all the time
We know u get the kids meal though. But soon that will not be the case and thats why I think its good we discuss this so people understand what is going down because to save the system a big war will be started and frankly like I told you earlier Im not going to fight and die or send anyone else to fight and die for a system that has not benefited me or against countries that have not attacked our shores. Attack our shores and kill our people like the Taliban you can die but things like Vietnam or fighting Israels wars I think they need to fight them themselves.

[edit on 20-5-2008 by mybigunit]



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