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Is The Fed Really a Product of The NWO or is Disinformation Being Used To Make Them Look Bad.

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posted on May, 16 2008 @ 08:49 AM
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Ok I think we have laid the facts out there on both sides. Now Ill get to the meat of my reasoning. If I had total control this is what I would do and why...

Fed and IRS Gone

I would switch our currency to both a gold and a silver backed currency in the form of certificates. Like the dollar but redeemable in gold or silver. I would allow for a 10/1 reserve requirement for every dollar in gold you have you can lend 10 dollars. I think this might be an area where we are getting crossed. That way we can still expand economically but also have a currency that has some hard value and to me gold and silver is as strong as it gets because of the history behind it.

Now here are the repercussions for doing this..you will see a big value decline in everything. Your house will go from being worth 300k to 30k or whatever. But in reality its not its just that our dollar is stronger. There is only so much gold out there which means really there can be only so much money out there. That means our currency should always have value as long as gold continues to have value and as history has shown it has pretty much. Changing currencies is not going to take us back to the stone ages where we go back to the barter system I mean obviously if we went back to the barter system I would stock up on food and guns.

I disagree with you on fighting for money I just want to get that out there because I feel we have one life on this earth and I dont want me or my kids or your kids if you have any to have to fight and die for some man made product whether its fiat or gold. Fighting for money or religion to me is not worth fighting for. Mess with me or my family or my land then its on though thats what matters to me. You dont need money to survive if crap really came down to crap.

Side note I feel we as humans because of technology has become to reliant on that technology and have lost a lot of humanity in the process and have lost the ability to really rely on ourselves and the government the way it is set up forces you to rely on it in one fashion or the other and to me that is not American at all to me.

In final this fraud called the FED will come to an end and Im willing to bet you any amount of money it will and it will in our lifetime. Slowly because of people like Ron Paul people are waking up and realizing that these guys are stealing money from us by inflation which is a tax that not to many people realize that we are paying. As you see with gold since the FED has kept up with that inflation where as our fiat money has not. These days even wages aren't keeping up with inflation and that in itself is a recipe for disaster. Henry Ford paid his workers a decent wage because he knew that if there was no middle class there would be no one to buy his products but I think big corporate America has missed that point. As we see huge pieces of the pie go to the top the working middle class(and even though I am a business owner and have employees I consider myself in that class) is getting wiped out and having to work 2 and sometimes 3 jobs just to make it and to me thats not right.

Im going into this because I think it all intertwines because we have A LOT of money our there in fact we have 14 trillion fiat dollars out there and a majority of that money is sitting in the hands of the top 1% and those people are not parting with that money hence the "credit crisis" so what has to happen is the FED is to put more money in the system and get it to those working class people. Well at the same time the working class people who did everything they were supposed to and save their money are getting the shaft by this big inflation tax along with all the other taxes. The whole system is screwed and we need a change. I know in your last sentence you said you want the FED gone Im curious to know if the above reasons are not part of it then what are the other possible reasons?




posted on May, 16 2008 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 




Fed and IRS Gone


You got my vote. Their method of taxation, over taxation is nothing more then metaphorical rape of individuals. I paid 25 cents in tax on my Red bull this morning. WTF. Seriously.

We declared war and kicked some British arse for far less then that.



I would switch our currency to both a gold and a silver backed currency in the form of certificates. Like the dollar but redeemable in gold or silver. I would allow for a 10/1 reserve requirement for every dollar in gold you have you can lend 10 dollars. I think this might be an area where we are getting crossed. That way we can still expand economically but also have a currency that has some hard value and to me gold and silver is as strong as it gets because of the history behind it.


10/1 huh? .. 10 dollars for every ounce? Every half an ounce? Quarter of an ounce? .001 ounces per 10 dollars? .. .00001 ounces? There is not a lot of Gold out there.. so it would have to be VERY small. If I traded in my certificate I would need a magnifying glass to see my Gold.



Now here are the repercussions for doing this..you will see a big value decline in everything. Your house will go from being worth 300k to 30k or whatever.
Yes, if we used the current near 1k per ounce per dollar. A 300k house would be 300 ounces of Gold. Which is actually a large amount of Gold. a new ratio would have to be implemented, unless you want a complete oligarchy of nobles (which I do actually) the ratio would have to be 10k dollars to an ounce, and your house could be bought for 300 bucks.

A lot of people would actually be living in little mud huts on the side of the road and government housing.



That means our currency should always have value as long as gold continues to have value and as history has shown it has pretty much. Changing currencies is not going to take us back to the stone ages where we go back to the barter system I mean obviously if we went back to the barter system I would stock up on food and guns.


Ya, unless I steal some Gold from a bank, then the supply drops, and you can't just print more paper. Or, this is happened a lot actually, your shipping some Gold to a secure location and it never shows up. Ship sunk, train crashed, guards ran off with it.

Oh damn, the country just lost it's net worth lol. It's not like now where you just void the serial numbers and replace the bills.

And it is historically noted that those who control what the world needs, is the center of trade. The Middle East got it's name because it was a hub of commerce, the largest in the world, and grew fantastically rich because of it. At one point, they where the strongest in the world, if we went to Gold Standard, the Middle East would be where I want to be .. they will control the World, not the US.

Unless we attack them, take their oil AND their Gold!



I disagree with you on fighting for money


I would rather kill to have my people remain powerful and at peace then to wait and succumb to the other people who had the balls to take the world by the short and curlies making them the most powerful nation on Earth. Nations don't survive through peace and reason, but rather through blood lust and the irrational exploits of war!



In final this fraud called the FED will come to an end and Im willing to bet you any amount of money it will and it will in our lifetime.


I hope so, I have no problem with Fiat money.. I prefer the illusion I have money to the alternative to being poor. However, the Fed is a private entity, and was not voted in by the People. In short, the banking cartels own this nation.

I will patiently await my (our) generation's Boston Tea Party. And will be the first to make sure the banking Lords reap what they sowed.



Im going into this because I think it all intertwines because we have A LOT of money our there in fact we have 14 trillion fiat dollars out there and a majority of that money is sitting in the hands of the top 1%


Same would happen with Gold.



I know in your last sentence you said you want the FED gone Im curious to know if the above reasons are not part of it then what are the other possible reasons?


My ideologies are blunt and cruel. ATS is not a place for me to talk about them because it's a bit to liberal for me! lol. No, really, it's because it is a private entity, and I support Gold for all it's flaws.. I am just presenting them as such because well, it is what it is.. Gold won't change anything, in fact, it would make things worse.

However I believe Humanity has gone to far from it's roots and detached from the world with a mystical illusion of net worth that does not actually exist. Materialistic and ignorant, people forget how the money system works, why it is there and how to avoid being taken advantage of our Second government, which is a private entity. I would rather see things the way they once where. I would rather see the end of Democracy, because entities such as the Federal Reserve are clear evidence that people are to damn ignorant to govern themselves. Why give them a Constitution if they will simply succumb and be told what to do anyways? Why give them an elected government if they won't vote, and take in good faith what ever a TV tells them? Why have a system of checks and balances if they allow corruption to form an outside entity to manipulate those three branches? Why preach freedom and equality, rights for all and the God given right to vote when bank board members essentially control the entire system anyways?

Ya, the Fed should go. So should the Fiat money system. And they can take the god forsaken constitution as well, we stopped using it long ago.

Now look.. you made me rant!



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 10:13 AM
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Juicy thread topic...great input...thanks for the heads-up MBU...nothing I like better than an opportunity to rag on the FRB. I'd just like to cherry-pick a few items that jumped-out at me if you don't mind...maybe come back later, and share a few ideas in greater depth.



By the bye, the historic price of gold had been $20 an ounce. In 1933, the government ordered the turning in of gold coins but paid $35 an ounce, nearly double the going price. That is why there was very little complaining. - DW


If I'm not mistaken Don, citizens were compensated at the official rate of $20oz. (actually $20 + change). Gold was revalued at $35oz after the confiscation...meaning their FRN' were devalued by almost 70%.

In other words: Not the best trade for J-6P...but he wasn't entirely naive either. Rumors circulated ahead of the actual decree. By some estimates, less than 50% of the Gold in circulation was actually surrendered.

Ostensibly, Roosevelt confiscated the public 'bling' to restore faith in the banking system...the currency...but a more nefarious motive has been argued...a motive more in keeping with MBU' suspicions.

In 1966, before he completely embraced the dark-side, a younger Alan Greenspan wrote:

The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit.

The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.




Look at it this way, which country - the US, the RF, Iran or Venezuela - can stand the high prices of oil the BEST or the easiest? - DW


The country with the strongest relative currency.

********

Golden attributes? Limited supply ($value) - both labor and energy intensive ($value) - 2MM$ in a shoe-box (practicality) - recognized store of value for 2,000yrs (universal acceptance)....and it's kinda purdy too (aesthetic value/appeal).


*Anybody notice Gold this am? The Dollar?



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by OBE1
 


Yeah this is one of those threads you will not get a lot of people on because it actually requires thought and intelligence to hold a conversation with us so people in there will be limited but it will be a good conversation. Yes dollar tanking and gold a rising ....Im telling you like I told Rock I think the fraud known as the FED will be coming to an end in our lifetime. Cant wait for the day....till then Im buying gold and not gold contracts.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by OBE1
 


Excellent post. It is a better written notion to which I was hinting at.

Why do we live the life of God's? .. We have more materialistic crap then we know what to do with, and constantly inventing more useless crap to satisfy our technological needs.

I will tell you..

The expansion of credit, the illusion of wealth and the prospects that America will always back what we create (be it fiat or not).

WITHOUT the mass expansion of Credit innovation and corporate expansion never would have taken place on the scale that it did..

And if we where to revert back to the old ways, such as Gold and Silver, well we will loose all the advances we had made.

It is exactly as Greenspan said. We have no value, our goods, property, they have no value under the Fiat system, HOWEVER, the illusion and the faith that it does, well that keeps the system running. As long as people THINK they are worth something, that is all that matters.

I don't support the Fed, the National Banking practices, and I don't agree with the Fiat system.

I do however recognize the devastation that would occur if the system where dismantled.

I recognize it, within our system, as a necessary evil. Until the day the Government fails, and all the economy is erased in a day .. and a new system rises, the Fiat system is the only system we can use.



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Just popping in to say great thread and good work people. This is ATS at it's best IMO. I've been reading with great interest (many applauses and stars handed out).
.



posted on May, 17 2008 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



I don’t know if the amount matters ... If we went to a gold backed dollar we would have 200+ billion dollars worth but that also makes the dollar much stronger which means things are much cheaper . . What I also didn’t throw in there is silver reserves ... I'm for gold and silver backed money . . people can choose . . Choice Don not stuck with one money that is inflated and inflated to pay for massive spending and benefits of a select few bankers . . I'm sure people would be rushing to buy our valuable currency killing inflation dead in its tracks . . I'm going to attempt to do the math but if oil is 800 an ounce . . its actually more right now . . i'm guesstimating a tank of gas under the new dollar would be $.30 a gallon because gold has held up with the inflating gas .... If I had to choose between 200 billion in fiat money or 200 billion in gold to me it’s a no brainer . . [my emphasis]


Well said, Mr M/B/U. But look here.

Let’s have a great experiment. Let’s put the industrialized world on the Gold Standard. Let’s have a period of great expansion of the leading powers. Then, let’s have a great war that decimates the male population of the Great Powers. Let’s have a period of great puritanism and greater still frivolity to follow the Great War. Then, let it be 1929.

The era of expansion we called the Victorian Era. The war was World War 1. Followed here by the Prohibition Era. Al Capone. The Jazz Age. The Roaring Twenties. Then came the CRASH. 1929. Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929. Around the industrialized world worse followed bad. Germany turned to a radical, Adolph Hitler. He was following on Italy’s own Mussolini. The Japanese Army had murdered the democrats in the Diet while the Emperor turned his head. Russia had gone communist but was mired in the mud of bureaucracy. In America one worker in 3 was out of work. Men left their homes and rode the rails looking for work. Always chasing the rainbow! They lived in cardboard hobo cities alongside the railroad tracks. Hooverville they called it. And they shared hobo soup.

THEN came 1933.
Franklin Roosevelt said TAKE US OFF THE GOLD STANDARD. Congress acted and made it UNLAWFUL for Americans to possess gold as money. FDR gave us FIAT money. John Maynard Keynes replaced Adam Smith as the godfather of economics. Pump priming was all the rage. WPA, PWA, TVA, REA, AAA, NRA, SEC, FCC, FTC, FPC, NLRB and CCC. These and more Federal agencies were created to TRANSFORM America from a 19th century agrarian economy into a modern industrialized PLANNED economy.

America was 120 million strong in 1930, but now 303 or 307 million depending on whose numbers you use. Let’s summarize the major differences between then and now. Larger houses. Most air conditioned. Many with swimming pools. All with 2 car garages, most filled to overflowing into the driveway. Everyone in the family has his or her own cell phone, iPhone or MP3. Laptops are as common as paper and pencils once were. Digital cameras. We mostly fly to where we want to go but if we drive, we ride in a 5,000 pound, 300 horsepower 4 door 8 air bag SUV!

Hey, I could go on. 16 X 9 tv replaced 4 X 3. Digital high def after 2009. Zoom cameras on every cell phone - if you want it. A 2 year contract gets you one “free.” And etc. Longer life expectancy - if you are white. Safer living if you live in a gated community.

AND ALL THAT AND MORE ON FIAT MONEY!

Hey, textbooks can debate which is preferable, fiat or gold, but look around you. Gold gave you 1929. Fiat brought you here! Gold is a trip to nostalgia land. And that's not a journey I want to take!

Mr M/B/U, you said “ . . If I had to choose between 200 billion in fiat money or 200 billion in gold to me it’s a no brainer . . “ Are you sure you don’t want TO TAKE THAT BACK?

Considering which has worked and which has not, I'm for FIAT every time.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 17 2008 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite

Hey, textbooks can argue which is preferable, fiat or gold, but look around you. Gold gave you 1929. Fiat brought you here!

Mr M/B/U, you said “ . . If I had to choose between 200 billion in fiat money or 200 billion in gold to me it’s a no brainer . . “ Are you sure you don’t want TO TAKE THAT BACK?



The crash of 1929 had nothing to do with the gold standard. It was a Federal Reserve and banks who where lending massive amounts of money which created a boom but it also created massive amount of debt similar that we have today.

What differs is credit was available but people refused to borrow because they didnt want to rack up new debt. Now its the opposite people want to borrow and the banks are not lending so essentially in both instances new money is not getting out there. The fed is printing printing and printing and its all being held by the banks. So we get the inflationary causes of mass printing but the money not funneling through they system the banks are using it to shore up their books.

So why am I comparing now and then. Because it shows you how the federal reserve fails. They create these booms using money they dont have and print and print and inflate and inflate then we have crashes because the boom is not a real boom. Its fake its an illusion. The only people who really come out on top are either the really lucky ones to pull their money out at the right time or the ones who got to lend the money first. Hitler or prohibition had nothing to do with the gold standard. The only near relation it had was the fact that is showed signs of a government clamping down on the people and slowly taking their rights away.

Now as far as today the big houses and big cars and this and that. Well we all now see its not real wealth. Foreclosures are at 1929 levels and auto sales are dead. Hell in fact people are giving their cars back. We have all this but yet we dont have all this. The only people who really have all this is the banks. Who owns all the houses and cars. The banks. The same banks that are causing these problems. Like when Jamie Dimon Chase CEO looks out his window and says "You see this, all this." The guy next to him says "yeah" "This is all ours. All the houses, cars, land its all ours." When you own a house you dont really own a house even if you are one of the very very few to pay for a house in cash. Try not paying your property taxes and tell my how long you have that house for. An illusion.

Now on the final question if I could choose between 200 in gold or 200 in fiat lets make this simple. In 1930 lets say I turned my money and bought 30 oz of gold at that time is was around $20 an oz and buried it so our government couldnt find it. That would of been around $600.00. Lets put that same $600 in a savings account at a 3% interest rate (90% of the times banks give u less but lets think high here). I would have $6018.04 in my bank account today. If I had that money in gold I would have $27,000.00 (900 an oz today). You can trade it in for whatver paper you want euro dollar or whatever so you can buy your happy meal. On top of that I have the security of knowing gold will always have a value. Fiat money you never know. It could crash at any time for any reason. Fiat has never lasted in history and our fiat money will not last forever here. Now here is the one reality check. The government can confiscate your gold at anytime compliments of executive order 6102. So that really puts people like me in a bind so bury it well. Regardless if I had to choose between 200 million in gold or 200 million in fiat paper money give me the gold and Ill take my chances with the government.

Do I understand you point? Of course, I just disagree. What we have today may or may not be because of fiat money this is debatable but I will say that what we have today isnt real for the middle class and poor its only real for the people who control this fiat money.

[edit on 17-5-2008 by mybigunit]

[edit on 17-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


reply to post by RockPuck
 


At 62, the odds don't favor my being around to witness the abolishment of the FRB...but hopefully my 11yr old son will record that experience


Placing the management of a country's currency in the hands of a quasi-political special interest group, well, that's one issue...boom-bust. Allowing this same group to short-circuit the ability of free markets to govern economic distribution...whatever the justification.......is a whole other can-o-worms. Lets see how these bank rescues play-out over time.

Referring back to the boom-bust cycle, the climate we are experiencing today might be better characterized as boombust...surging commodity prices/declining economic growth. Informally: Stagflation.

I doubt that it's possible, or even practical to expect the return of a global Gold Standard. Aside from overwhelming political sentiment against such a move...Gold backing, or Gold convertibility won't address the current problem: Too many Dollars in circulation. I like Jim Sinclair's analogy of USA as a corporation...with the Dollar representing one share of t's common stock. Aside from poor earnings...what do investors fear most? Stock dilution...the kiss of death for share price, and confidence in company management. I think dw, MBU, and RP all agreed that Dollar strength and viability is sustained by FAITH. I would only refine that truism to add; confidence in the monetary authorities of the United States. Secretatry Paulson' task is perception management...maintaining investor confidence in the common share of USA-Corp. Have you seen him scurrying about lately? Yes, at this stage, I think we can honestly state: The US Dollar is a confidence game


As a result of declining earnings and the over-issuance of it's common stock...USA-Corp has a major balance sheet problem. Simply declaring trillions of outstanding shares to be redeemable in Gold won't repair the existing balance sheet. Besides, imagine the run on Ft. Knox














[edit on 18-5-2008 by OBE1]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 01:47 AM
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Fiat Empire -


Google Video Link




G. Edward Griffin on the Origin of the Federal Reserve


Google Video Link




The Money Masters


Google Video Link



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 01:52 AM
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Today the gold standard just won't work. There isn't enough of it to go around, and don't forget the people who have most of the gold today are the same ones we're trying to get rid of.


Fiat currency can work, so long as its issuance isn't controlled by a corrupt organization motivated by greed. Issuance of money must be public, controllable by the people (not a small private group), accountable (no fractional-reserve magic accounting schemes) and the issue of compound interest deserves a very serious, hard look.


If I had loaned the world 1 cent at the time of christ, with 5% apr, today the world would owe me a lot. So much so, that if the price of gold is $900 an ounce, then the world owes me a mass of gold over 300,000 times the weight of the Sun.


One person never did this, but the banking scheme as a whole continues to collect massive and increasing interest from the public on an ongoing basis. This monster can never be satisfied... so why even attempt to feed it?



[edit on 18-5-2008 by ianr5741]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by ianr5741
 



(1) Fiat currency can work, so long as its issuance isn't controlled by a corrupt organization motivated by greed. Issuance of money must be public, controllable by the people . . (not a small private group),


I have posted above proof positive that FIAT money works. We are living proof of that; not some debate society wondering why we are all broke. Although I was not present at the creation of the Federal Reserve System, I claim to have a fair understanding of it. Every licensed bank - a depository of other people’s money - is allowed to join the Federal Reserve System usually called the Fed. Because of the advantages of membership, as far as I know
all the banks in the United States are members. Assessments based on deposits are used to defray the cost of running the Fed.

Until DHL and other private couriers came on line, the Fed served most of us as the clearing house for interstate checking. The Fed always “loaned” money to its members, and ultimately - 1933 - became the sole source of printed currency. Fiat money. The implication that the Fed is a “corrupt” organization falls on deaf ears to me.

The Fed is “public” more so than any private bank I am aware of. It’s Board of Governors and its Chairman are all appointed by the president, approved by the Senate, and serve definite terms in office. It would be difficult to create a quasi-private organization more subject to public scrutiny than the Fed. IMO.



. . accountable (no fractional-reserve magic accounting schemes) and the issue of compound interest deserves a very serious, hard look.


Code words put me on alert. Jargon puts me on alert. I see both in the phrase “ . . no fractional-reserve magic accounting schemes . . “ and all the more when coupled with “ . . the issue of compound interest.” An issue I was totally unaware existed.

I regard myself as fairly well educated. I have a college degree. I have read more than 25 books in the last 3 years. I have FOX off my remote. I hate CNN since Time-Warner has made it over as Fox Junior. I trust only PBS and I’m faithful to Andy Rooney. I admit much of my interest lies in science and not so much in politics or grand scale economics but still, I should have heard something about those issues. But I have not. Which could be all my fault.

Therefore, seeking information, I ask: 1) HOW would those issues be best dealt with? 2) What would be different if that was accomplished?



(2) One person never did this, but the banking scheme as a whole continues to collect massive and increasing interest from the public on an ongoing basis. This monster can never be satisfied... so why even attempt to feed it?


It seems my arbitrary division of this post into TWO parts feeds one into the other. The discount rate is announced publicly. I think it is 2% currently. So if your bank “borrows” $100 million from the Fed, they actually get $98 million but owe $100 million. Discount meaning interest paid in advance.

I perceive the question is “where does the 1000s of instances of $2 million paid in advance go?” As I have argued in other threads at ATS, money can’t be static! It must be dynamic. In motion. We cannot squirrel away billions of printed dollars at Ft. Knox for a rainy day. Life is not so simple anymore. Money taken out of circulation merely deflates the economy. Money added to the economy merely inflates the economy. Problem is, some people benefit MORE from the one than from the other while others are HARMED by the one more than by the other. Who said life was simple?

To answer your implicit question "where is the money" I say, “It’s on the books.” I don’t know how much banks borrow every day. But if the Fed has only fifty cents on the books, it would be WEAK. OTOH, if it had 5 trillion dollars on the books, it would be STRONG.

Which is better for America to have, a weak system or a strong system? The answer is obvious. A big country needs a BIG Fed.



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by OBE1
 



At 62, the odds don't favor my being around to witness the abolishment of the FRB ... but hopefully my 11yr old son will record that experience . .


You may not be so lucky! You could live much longer than you imagine. Like it or not, just like the United Nations, if we didn’t already have one we would have to invent it today. So it is with the Fed. You cannot have a $14 t. US economy in a $45 t. global economy without a Fed.



Placing the management of a country's currency in the hands of a quasi-political special interest group, well, that's one issue ... boom-bust. Allowing this same group to short-circuit the ability of free markets to govern economic distribution ...


On reflection, we could not put the money in the hands of Congress. “Earmarks” would be the rule of the day not the exception. I offer we have the best compromise in the Fed system. I believe it is the nature of a free economy to go boom-bust. The USSR tried to plan the economy but it was TOO large for them. The Chinese gave up on planning their economy in 1977 and while they are killing the Earth by their CO2 emissions, they are the Wonder of the Economic World. (I attribute most of China’s newfound money success to the ready availability of foreign capital which China has coupled with its exploited labor. Say hello PLA).



As a result of declining earnings and the over-issuance of it's common stock ... USA-Corp has a major balance sheet problem. Simply declaring trillions of outstanding shares to be redeemable in Gold won't repair the existing balance sheet. Besides, imagine the run on Ft. Knox


So what’s to do? Although I have labeled Don Rumsfeld as Herr Oberfuhrer, he said it best: “We go to war with what we have not with what we’d like to have.” Very wrong for him but OK for us. We produce NO dead bodies for our neglect. After just a short time in Korea - late 1953-54 - I hypothesized that if the CG - commanding general - had to eat, sleep and work on the front line with the soldiers he sent there, we’d have far fewer wars.

I admit LIFE is a great Ponzi Scheme. But it brings along more people than any other scheme we’ve devised. For sure we don’t want to do a re-run of the Weimar Republic but if we can avoid that temptation, we may ride this wave indefinitely!



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



The Cross of Gold speech was a speech delivered by William Jennings Bryan (1860-1925) at the 1896 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. The speech advocated Bimetallism. At the time, the Democratic Party wanted to standardize the value of the dollar to silver and opposed pegging the value of the United States dollar to a gold standard alone. The inflation that would result from the silver standard would make it easier for farmers and other debtors to pay off their debts by increasing their revenue dollars. It would also reverse the deflation which the U.S. experienced
from 1873-1896. Follows the ending of the speech.

"Having behind us the producing masses of this nation and the world, supported by the commercial interests, the laboring interests and the toilers everywhere, we will answer their demand for a gold standard by saying to them: You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."
W. J. Bryan

PS. Bryan was a devout Presbyterian, an outspoken supporter of popular democracy, an outspoken critic of banks and railroads, a leader of the silverite movement in the 1890s, a leading figure in the Democratic Party, a peace advocate, a prohibitionist, an opponent of Social Darwinism, and one of the most prominent leaders of Populism in late 19th- and early 20th century. Bryan was the 3 times presidential nominee of the Democratic Party. He was Woodrow Wilson’s first Secretary of State. He is probably best known for his crusade against Darwinism, which culminated in the Scopes Trial in 1925. Five days after winning the case, he died in his sleep. R.I.P.
en.wikipedia.org...


I have always admired Bryan - but not his anti-evolution or prohibition stance. Many have said he was ahead of his time, money-wise. He advocated CHEAP money which benefits the POOR as opposed to the Republicans who advocated EXPENSIVE money which benefits the RICH. I think Bryan's economics have been supremely vindicated!

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


I happen to not believe I came from a monkey also but that is for another thread. For the people who said there is not enough gold I tell you its all relative. We CAN go back to gold standard but the price of gold would have to be hiked up to keep up with the current paper money in the system. It sucks I know but when you put it in perspective it sucks that all this money is out there in the first place.

The Fiat Empire video above is a good video 58 min long but informative. The mention competing which I have said would work for me. Have a gold backed, silver backed, and fiat money system and let people choose. Right now you can choose between fiat systems from several countries but that is no good. Let the free market decide our currency. I guarantee you the fiat would not be around long after that.

As far as the FED being more public than government I dont know DW if you have a public company that you dont know the owners of I dont know how public it actually is. How many individual shareholders can you name that own the fed? None because they have never been officially released. They have accidentally released corporate shareholders but not the individual. Why do you suppose that is?

You talk about the USSR trying to plan and control their economy but that is essentially what the fed is doing. The try to control it using these "tools" they have and the BIG gun the interest rate.

Now on the boom bust cycles. This is what bothers me everyone talks about how there has to be boom bust cycles and I say why? If our economy is ran on productivity where would the bust come into play? Americans are one of the most productive societies why does there have to be a bust? I can see maybe a slowdown but recessions and depressions? I mean that is the problem any productivity of America is being sucked out by inflation which is why these days you have to have 2 incomes to survive. Then when the money exceeds the productivity then you have your bust which is what we are going through now. Why? Because of the mass printing of money.

I dont know DW I mean I dont claim to know it all I know quite a bit for my age but to me sometimes when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck sometimes its a duck and when you look at how they system is being ran both by government and the FED you have to say to yourself the system is broken and needs to be changed. I know your argument is well look at where it as gotten us. It hasnt gotten the majority of the people anywhere. Most people live paycheck to paycheck even though they put in their 40 hours a week and more. I think any American who has a full time job or even two jobs and I dont care what job it is if you are working I think you should be able to feed your family and pay the bills and right now for a lot of Americans that is not the case and I think it roots from our monetary system.



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



I happen to not believe I came from a monkey also but that is for another thread.


Monkeys are very much hands-on. I happen to be a hands on type with women - gets me in trouble too - so are you thinking I’m part monkey? (DNA aside).



For the people who said there is not enough gold I tell you its all relative. We CAN go back to gold standard but the price of gold would have to be hiked up to keep up with the current paper money in the system. It sucks I know but when you put it in perspective it sucks that all this money is out there in the first place.


Now you’re quibbling. You’re wed to gold. We show you there is not enough gold and you respond, “make it worth less!” Or is it “more?” Regardless you say, “make it fit!” While convenience is found mostly in fiat money, stability is a MUST in any currency. And frankly, the definition for fait accompli must cover the idea that you can make gold worth whatever you want and not simply make gold into a heavy to carry version of FIAT money!

The value of gold is found not only in its beauty and permanence but in its SCARCITY. I have read the intrinsic value of gold is about $200 an ounce. It is the beauty and desire to own it that makes it worth so much more.



They mention competing which I have said would work for me. Have a gold backed, silver backed, and fiat money system and let people choose. Right now you can choose between fiat systems from several countries but that is no good. Let the free market decide our currency. I guarantee you the fiat would not be around long after that.


On “free market” I’ve already denounced that is an false exercise in mental gymnastics which ignores the real world. There are markets to be sure, but NO free markets. Only in textbooks.



As far as the FED being more public than government I dont know DW if you have a public company that you dont know the owners of I dont know how public it actually is. How many individual shareholders can you name that own the fed? None because they have never been officially released. They have accidentally released corporate shareholders but not the individual. Why do you suppose that is?


OK, David Rockefeller used to own City Bank of New York. It has merged and re-merged and David Rockefeller may be dead for all I know. What part of City Bank - now spelled citibank - he owned I have no idea. Milton Eisenhower - Ike’s brother - worked for him. But I feel pretty sure that David Rockefeller held NO shares in the Federal Reserve System.

That is because I don’t think that is the way the Fed is organized. I think it is “owned” by its member banks. Not by the people who own the member banks. Maybe a difference without a distinction but I can see one here. Hardly any large banks are owned by sole proprietors. Anymore.



Now on the boom bust cycles. This is what bothers me everyone talks about how there has to be boom bust cycles and I say why? If our economy is ran on productivity where would the bust come into play? Americans are one of the most productive societies why does there have to be a bust? I can see maybe a slowdown but recessions and depressions? I mean that is the problem any productivity of America is being sucked out by inflation which is why these days you have to have 2 incomes to survive. Then when the money exceeds the productivity then you have your bust which is what we are going through now. Why? Because of the mass printing of money.


Congratulations! You are a closet socialist, Mr M/B/U!



I don’t know DW I mean I don’t claim to know it all I know quite a bit for my age but to me sometimes when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck sometimes it’s a duck and when you look at how they system is being ran both by government and the FED you have to say to yourself the system is broken and needs to be changed.


You don’t have to go far back in history to see a time when ordinary people worked from daylight to dark. Many of them lived in one room houses without windows because 1) they could not afford glass and 2) windows were taxed. Because there were no police, the poor had to keep their animals inside the house with them at night lest they would be stolen as they slept. In this one room you may have 4, 5 or 6 children, a very tired woman, a malnourished man and a hog, 2 or 3 chickens and maybe a half wild dog. Now that family lived in a FREE MARKET economy!

Today you have the Wage and Hour Division of the Labor Department setting minimum wags and enforcing the 50% penalty for over 40 hours a week worked. OSHA says you cannot put a man down into an enclosed environment without training and a SBU - self breathing unit - nor can you use electricity conducing ladders in commercial settings.

The EPA will not let you drive a car that violates the emissions standards. Much of our gasoline cost is due to 30 different refining standards employed around the country to get EPA conformity. Most communities will tell you that you cannot build a house with less than X square feet, nor can you build a house with more than Y square feet on a Lot of Z square feet. If you own or live in a house listed in the Historical Registry you cannot paint either the interior or exterior until you have a permit!

You see my point.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Do I think you are a monkey? No I don't think any human came from a monkey. I don't believe in Darwin's theory in its complete form. The only part I do believe is the fact that we adapt to our surroundings but I don't think we evolved from monkeys no.



Now you’re quibbling. You’re wed to gold. We show you there is not enough gold and you respond, “make it worth less!” Or is it “more?” Regardless you say, “make it fit!” While convenience is found mostly in fiat money, stability is a MUST in any currency. And frankly, the definition for fait accompli must cover the idea that you can make gold worth whatever you want and not simply make gold into a heavy to carry version of FIAT money!


I said that in response to the people who say there is not enough gold on the market cover the existing fiat money then to you would have to convert in one fashion or another. But when its all said and done there can be only so much money out there which forces government to curb spending. It relative where as now there is no limits. Gold has always had value....always where as fiat currencies have always failed...

Closet socialist.....ouch. I don't think I said anywhere I believe in wealth redistribution. In fact I said there has been wealth redistribution but its been redistributed to the top. So in a sense the only socialists that Im seeing are the people who are sucking the wealth off of hard working Americans via the inflation tax. Socialism isn't always steal from the rich give to the poor its does work both ways and in the past 30 years I feel it is obvious this is happening.

Hell if you want to talk about socialism what about the socialism for the banks and investment companies like Bear Stearns. Why were they not allowed to go bankrupt? When the profits were rolling in and the execs were getting huge paychecks where was the socialism? I didn't see their checks getting sent to the middle class there was no socialism and on profits there never is its free market at that point. But what about when the times are bad? All of a sudden socialism works well then. Take 50 billion from the FED and give it to JP Morgan who uses it to buy Bear Stearns. Let me ask you something where does that money come from? Where did the FED get 50 billion to just give to Chase? Ill tell you where they borrow it and if they cant borrow it then they print it. Either way I pay for it both through inflation and my normal taxes. Is this fair? In fact its kind of socialistic dont you think?

Hell we have a government who spends money like there is no tomorrow why because our monetary system allows for it. There is no limits. But nothing comes for free and someone will be paying for this mass spending and its being paid in taxes and in the inflation tax. So whos the socialistic one?

I call for small government, balanced budgets, and a monetary system that doesn't rob the people and yes the fed DOES have individual owners but you will never know who they are because sometimes its better to control from behind the curtains then in front of them.

I dont see the big issues of having competing currencies. We can start there. There doesnt need to be a direct transfer Ill give you that point because that could cause serious problems. Do it slowly. Issue gold and silver backed currencies that is redeemable for anything and let the people choose. I do not see how this though of letting the people choose is some weird foreign thought...then again maybe things really have changed that much.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



I don't believe in Darwin's theory in its complete form. The only part I do believe is the fact that we adapt to our surroundings . . “


OK, I know you did not say I was part monkey. I said that. I hold there is scientific evidence that all primates descended from one common ancestor. See Foot Note.



I said that in response to the people who say there is not enough gold on the market cover the existing fiat money . . but when its all said and done there can be only so much money out there which forces government to curb spending. [Gold is] relative where as now there is no limits. Gold has always had value .... always where as fiat currencies have always failed ...


This is a classic apples and oranges debate. FYI the US has printed $400 b. in currency. Greenbacks. It’s divided 65/35% with the most being used here and the smaller amount being used abroad. The first and so far the only world currency. Recent Federal mismanagement has put that exalted status in jeopardy. It is very advantageous to us that the world trades in US Dollars.



Closet socialist ..... ouch. I don't think I said anywhere I believe in wealth redistribution. what about the socialism for the banks and investment companies like Bear Stearns. Why were they not allowed to go bankrupt? When the profits were rolling in and the execs were getting huge paychecks where was the socialism?


OK, I was putting you on! Actually the reasons I used for forming that opinion was your criticism of the lack of “protections” afforded by the government for discriminatory actions by the rich against the poor. The rich have subverted the regulatory system. As much as I hate the RICH who are manipulating us, we need Bear Stearns, J P Morgan and so on. It was cheaper on us to bail them out than to let them go under. Now, there should have been many side agreements reached between the Fed and Bear Stearns, J P Morgan etc., before the money was forthcoming. If not, then you can add Mr Ben Bernanke to the list of bandits in waiting. It’s like having the fox watch the henhouse.



Let me ask you something where does that money come from? Where did the FED get 50 billion to just give to Chase? Ill tell you where they borrow it and if they cant borrow it then they print it. Either way I pay for it both through inflation and my normal taxes. Is this fair? In fact its kind of socialistic don’t you think?


I don’t know on socialistic. We have a mixed government. We have an psychological aversion to calling it what it is. I guess that goes to prove the effectiveness of propaganda. Just listen to the critique of the current farm bill.

Where do you get $56 b? In a hurry? It’s “on the books!” No, they do not print money like that. The amount of money in circulation - M1, I think, is very important and not to be tinkered with lightly. But all those “discount” loans made to member banks? That’s where the Fed gets its money.



“ . . we have a government who spends money like there is no tomorrow why because our monetary system allows for it. There is no limits. But nothing comes for free and someone will be paying for this mass spending and its being paid in taxes and in the inflation tax. So who’s the socialistic one?


Well, to offset this complaint of yours, you must support a graduated income tax with fairly high top bracket rates. I’m advocating 50% on income over $300,000. And a surtax of 20% on any amount over $1 million. (That’s 60%). We had 91% for the top bracket rate from 1942 to 1962. A period of prosperity. That is why I ignore those who CRY crocodile tears when they have to pay taxes.

Presently we are paying 9% of Federal revenue in interest on debt. If we had been paying taxes on the 1993 Clinton tax rates, that would just 6%! That’s $90 b. or more, per year, to spend on our bridges falling down, our schools and our 43 million uninsured health care citizens. But Republicans always take care of their own.



I call for small government, balanced budgets, and a monetary system that doesn't rob the people . . I don’t see the big issues of having competing currencies. We can start there. Do it slowly. Issue gold and silver backed currencies that is redeemable for anything and let the people choose. I do not see how this though of letting the people choose is some weird foreign thought ... then again maybe things really have changed that much.


Changing currencies is almost like changing GODs. The current form of money used in the US began in the late 19th century and was last modified - size changed - in 1933. People around the world recognize US currency. They have faith in it especially if their own currency is not so good. It would take a generation before that degree of confidence was regained. Many people hoard (legally) money. Governments like it when these people are brought out in the open. The people have their own reasons for not wanting their money amounts known. Until people learn the new values of the new money, commerce would suffer. For what I do not see as an advantage would be costly to us.

As for having 3 forms of money in use simultaneous have you ever heard of the Tower of Babel?


Foot Note.
I think there are 300 million ACGT links in the double helix of a DNA - Deoxyribonucleic acid - molecule. I have read that humans share 99.5% with chimpanzees. I have read that chimpanzees do not share that many genes with monkeys which means monkeys branched off the Tree of Life before chimps then us. Shucks, I have also read humans share 10% of their DNA with oak trees. Hmm? No, I don’t know which variety of oak.



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 





This is a classic apples and oranges debate. FYI the US has printed $400 b. in currency. Greenbacks. It’s divided 65/35% with the most being used here and the smaller amount being used abroad. The first and so far the only world currency. Recent Federal mismanagement has put that exalted status in jeopardy. It is very advantageous to us that the world trades in US Dollars.


Maybe we are on a different page but I show outstanding money to be at 14 trillion




Yes I understand it is advantageous for the world to use our dollar because we need people to buy up our dollar to keep inflation low. Basically we are at the worlds mercy if we want to continue to spend the kind of money that we are spending. You are also correct that the fed and government has ruined the dollar with its policies. I mean when we have to kiss China and Saudis butt so they dont dump our currency and crash it wheres the sovereignty at?



OK, I was putting you on! Actually the reasons I used for forming that opinion was your criticism of the lack of “protections” afforded by the government for discriminatory actions by the rich against the poor. The rich have subverted the regulatory system. As much as I hate the RICH who are manipulating us, we need Bear Stearns, J P Morgan and so on. It was cheaper on us to bail them out than to let them go under. Now, there should have been many side agreements reached between the Fed and Bear Stearns, J P Morgan etc., before the money was forthcoming. If not, then you can add Mr Ben Bernanke to the list of bandits in waiting. It’s like having the fox watch the henhouse.


We need Bear Stearns? Says who? I understand the implications that it would have on our financial system by letting them go down but this is my point. We keep patching up this system and bailing it out...laymans terms we are fixing the symptoms but not curing the disease which is our federal reserve. I dont hate rich dont get me wrong but I think everyone needs to be on a level playing field and I dont feel that is the case right now. I feel there is socialism going on but in a reverse form.




Well, to offset this complaint of yours, you must support a graduated income tax with fairly high top bracket rates. I’m advocating 50% on income over $300,000. And a surtax of 20% on any amount over $1 million. (That’s 60%). We had 91% for the top bracket rate from 1942 to 1962. A period of prosperity. That is why I ignore those who CRY crocodile tears when they have to pay taxes.
Presently we are paying 9% of Federal revenue in interest on debt. If we had been paying taxes on the 1993 Clinton tax rates, that would just 6%! That’s $90 b. or more, per year, to spend on our bridges falling down, our schools and our 43 million uninsured health care citizens. But Republicans always take care of their own.


You want in on a secret? Im for NO income taxes. If there HAS to be income taxes then tax people who are in the top 1% but the tax to be minimal. Im for curbing our government spending to a point to where it
it is possible to cut all income taxes or only for the top 1%. The problem is as long as we police the world, police our people, run a welfare state, and fight wars we shouldnt be in then no taxes will not happen. As long as we have a currency that allows our government to spend the kind of money that they spend my wish for no taxes will not happen. The chart below shows that an income tax is not needed at all if we spent only money we should be spending.







Changing currencies is almost like changing GODs. The current form of money used in the US began in the late 19th century and was last modified - size changed - in 1933. People around the world recognize US currency. They have faith in it especially if their own currency is not so good. It would take a generation before that degree of confidence was regained. Many people hoard (legally) money. Governments like it when these people are brought out in the open. The people have their own reasons for not wanting their money amounts known. Until people learn the new values of the new money, commerce would suffer. For what I do not see as an advantage would be costly to us.


No doubt it would not be easy and I never said it would and thats why my slowly introduce it approach seemed reasonable to me. But the long term rewards of getting rid of the type of system we have where are money is basically debt and reliance on borrowing from other countries and the FED is not going to last and it will smash the middle and poor class and in the end affecting everyone. This idea that we have to beg China not to crash us really gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. A country built on self reliance and freedom has to pander to some dictatorship for both financial reasons and for energy like us going and begging Saudi Arabia for oil...WTF!!!!


[edit on 18-5-2008 by mybigunit]

[edit on 18-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 



Maybe we are on a different page but I show outstanding money to be at 14 trillion


I was speaking of the actual amount of $1, $2, $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 bills. $400 b. worth. Before the 1960s, we also printed $500 and $1000 bills but the IRS convinced the Treasury to stop that in order to reduce the cash economy. If you find such large bills today, they command a premium, usually $50 for the $500 and $100 for the $1000. When one of those bills hits a bank, it is sent to the Fed to be destroyed. Unless the teller or branch manager “takes” it. Which is a Federal offense.

The $14 t. sounds more like the US annual GDP.
Gross domestic product. The value of all goods and services produced in the US. $13.79 trillion (2007 est.) See www.cia.gov...



Basically we are at the worlds mercy if we want to continue to spend the kind of money that we are spending. You are also correct that the fed and government has ruined the dollar with its policies. When we have to kiss China and Saudis butt so they don’t dump our currency and crash it where is the sovereignty at?


Remember the “banker’s nightmare” I wrote about earlier? That’s when the borrower has gotten so deep into the lender that the lender can no longer FORCE the borrower to pay him! That is as if the two - borrower and lender - have become partners. The two then have to work together to save both borrower and lender.

Japan is the largest holder of US debt. So far, Japan needs us more than we need them. Remember North Korea? Koreans HATE Japanese for the horrible treatment they received during the Occupation by Japan from 1910 to 1945. They were virtual slaves. One example: Korean women were forced into prostitution to “service” the Japanese Army. And etc.

I believe China is #2 in the holding of US debt. We have finally made “peace” with the Chi-coms. That was the term we used in the 50s and 60s to refer to mainland China. The PRC. People’s Republic of China. And PLA. People’s Liberation Army. Like us in Cuba we continue to support the old Chinese capitalists who were forced to take refuge in Taiwan in 1949 long after the cause has died.

Perhaps Saudi Arabia is #3 in holding of US debt? The Saudi's are the chief among the Arabs. The guardians of Mecca and Medina. The Persian Gulf is our (Arab) fall-back source of crude oil.

So far the US is well ahead of other countries in creating credit. Suppose you are an Argentine cattle baron. Say you have a lot of money to invest. Would you want to buy Filipino bonds at 10% or US bonds at 5%? And, who has the most bonds to sell? Switzerland or the US? You can’t sell bonds if you can’t make the payments. That’s why the Swiss franc will never replace the US dollar. We are the only country that can print enough money to go around and still have it accepted in commerce as having value. They need us as much as we need them.



We need Bear Stearns? Says who? I understand the implications that it would have on our financial system by letting them go down but this is my point. We keep patching up this system and bailing it out ... laymen’s terms we are fixing the symptoms but not curing the disease which is our federal reserve.


Now you are getting into our political system. Just look at the current 5 year Farm Bill. Everybody agrees - so it seems - that we need to end payments to rich people for farm land on which no farm products are produced. Yet, the best we could do was to exclude people making more than $500,000 if NOT farmers and $750,000 if actually engaged in farming. Out of a $250 b. farm bill the R&Fs are strong enough in Congress to get about $10 b. That is the price we pay for our form of government. Like it or not, it’s ours! Now it is against the law for any congressperson to cast his or her vote on a quid pro quo basis. But we have NO enforcers of that rule. NONE. ZIP. We common folk are at the mercy of the congresspersons TO DO THE RIGHT THING. But that is our system.



You want in on a secret? Im for NO income taxes. If there HAS to be income taxes then tax people who are in the top 1% but the tax to be minimal. Im for curbing our government spending to a point to where it is possible to cut all income taxes or only for the top 1%. The problem is as long as we police the world, police our people, run a welfare state, and fight wars we shouldn’t be in then no taxes will not happen.


Right! You said it. “ . . No taxes will not happen.” Look, until the Civil War we had no income taxes. The US government was supported by tariffs, excise taxes and the sale or lease of Federal land. That was it. Everything changed with the Civil War. The first income tax was imposed in 1863 at 3% on all income over $5,000. In the 1870s the tax was altered to a graduated income tax, taxing larger incomes more than smaller incomes. That law was declared unconstitutional in 1885. There was no effort to “fix” the problem.

But the Federal government MUST have more money if it was to be a GREAT power. Remember Teddy Roosevelt’s “Great White Fleet?” In the 1890s we built a dozen battleships - the WMD of its day - to enter the colonial empire world. That costs money and lots of it.

Today instead of battleships we have 10 super carriers and 2 more under construction and 4 new ones in the early design stages. $5-$10 b. each! We are building one new nuclear sub a year at $5-$6 b. each. We have an Armed Forces desperately looking for a WAR!



As long as we have a currency that allows our government to spend the kind of money that they spend my wish for no taxes will not happen. The chart below shows that an income tax is not needed at all if we spent only money we should be spending.


You put it “ . . if we spent only money we should be spending.” Go back to the Farm Bill. $250 b. over 5 years. About $200 b. for food stamps and school lunches. What would you do about that? Our economy cannot produce enough jobs to let people make enough money to feed themselves. That is a symptom of a systemic defect that needs addressing but we prefer to put a band aid on it. Again, we are back to our political system.

Food for thought.
I have concluded we have TOO much democracy in America. What we need more is GOOD government. But in almost every case, school boards, city councils, state legislatures and the Federal congress, the elected members want to MICRO-MANAGE a project over which they have neither the training nor the inclination to learn enough about to manage it well.

Therein lies our dilemma.
How do you choose the people to govern you, yet require them to do that which they can do and to leave that which they cannot do to others who can do it?

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]




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