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Is The Fed Really a Product of The NWO or is Disinformation Being Used To Make Them Look Bad.
page: 1share:
I think anyone who knows me on this site has seen my stances on the federal reserve and I stand by my stances. I got a U2U from DonWhite that says
the following....
Ok so to me this sets up a premise to a good debate so I sent him back responding....
Ok so the debate begins the lines are drawn is the FED really part of a bigger plan to rob us blind and give all our power to a select few for world domination or is it disinformation by people like me and others on the site....let the debate begin
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
"Mischief springs from the power which the moneyed interest derives from a paper currency which they are able to control . . " Andrew Jackson
May I offer without presupposing?
The First National Bank of the United States was created by Alexander Hamilton with the blessing of George Washington and the Federalist Party. It had a 20 year charter. The bank continued after its charter expired and ultimately a Second National Bank was chartered.
In part to encourage the adoption of the NEW (in 1787) Constitution, the NEW central government would assume all the debts of the several states. In 1787 the US was in default to both France and the English merchants and etc. By the time John Adams lost his bid for re-election, 1800, the Federal governments creditworthiness had been reestablished.
Jackson - an old agrarian in a nascent industrial world - wrecked the Bank by ordering a succession of recalcitrant Secretaries of the Treasury to withdraw ALL the US’s money from that bank and put into other private banks. Sort of an early precursor of Nixon’s Saturday Night Massacre of AGs. That move effectively ended the National Banks of the United States.
The US Government, after barely surviving the laissez-faire economics of the Gilded Age following the Civil War, fumbled around and finally enacted the 16th amendment to support the expanding government and simultaneously enacted the Federal Reserve Act to crate a central bank, American style.
American style? Privately owned but Federally regulated and the Fed’s top management appointed by the US Government.
There is not enough gold or silver to run a modern superpower economy. Besides, it wears holes in your pockets. Fiat money is a must and that means, the issuing authority must CONTROL the value of its currency or give it over to currency speculators. See also China. en.wikipedia.org...
Don W
Ok so to me this sets up a premise to a good debate so I sent him back responding....
Fiat currencies have no value. Its only worth the paper its printed on that that is one of my issues and the second is it is just unconstituitional. You are essentially giving one of the governments most powerful weapons the power of its own currency to a select few people. Federally regulated let me ask you when do you think the last time the federal reserve was audited? With that being said it also bugs me that every year 30 to 40% of our tax dollars goes to pay interest on all of this fiat money that was borrowed. This puts our hard working dollars into banks hands. I mean is it not enough that the banks are making a killing on compound interest and other means of collecting money from debtors that we have to pay them with our tax dollars too? That 40% could be going to ALOT more places than to a bank. Now I know your response is well all of the money is put back into the treasury that the FED makes. How do you know? Without serious regulation or auditing how can you possibly know for sure that this is occuring. The time of our ways are coming to an end for we are pissing more and more of these countries who are buying all of this currency of ours and if they all decide to dump one day guess what. Now this also doesnt take into effect the oil factor. Right now the oil is pegged in dollars except for three countries who are refusing to peg in dollars Iran, Venuzuela, and Russia. What happens if a country like Iran floods the market with cheap oil and then says Ill give you this oil cheap but it needs to be bought in euros where is our currency going to go? Ill tell you where right down the damn tubes and once again the working people will be left in the dust.
Now on to what solves the issue. If our currency was gold backed or backed by anything with value instead of this debt backed currency it would force the government to watch its spending habits which means lower taxes and no income taxes. Keep in mind the IRS wasnt foarmed till 1913 the same time as the FED why? Because with the fiat system you need high taxes to keep the value of that currency strong.
Now as far as the historical part..Washington was a soldier not an economist and he was very hesitent on signing in the First Bank. You had Thomas Jefferson on one side worried about giving up the rights of people and states to banks essentially and Hamilton who was the bank on the other. He did go with Hamilton eventually though some back room scheming but that does not make the decision right. Andrew Jackson also was against a privatized bank running our currency and he was almost killed for it. They claimed the guy was nuts but was he? You wonder how the Rockefellers of the world has their endless amount of money and power and its all goes back to ownership of the FED.
Im a Thomas Jefferson kind of guy not an Alexander Hamilton kind of guy I think he was in bed with the English and thats why he wanted the english style banking system when you look at his war stances during the proxy french american war you will see...
Ok so the debate begins the lines are drawn is the FED really part of a bigger plan to rob us blind and give all our power to a select few for world domination or is it disinformation by people like me and others on the site....let the debate begin
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the subject but you really shouldn't share u2u's like this. I would expect all my u2u's to be private
between me and the recipient.
Unless of course he was OK with it, in which case I should just shut up now
Unless of course he was OK with it, in which case I should just shut up now
I was taught bits and pieces of the FED's history in college, but never put it all together until I saw Zeitgeist. So, I would have to say its 90%
likely to be a tool of the NWO that seems to be coming upon us like a tiger pounces on sheep.
reply to post by Maxmars
Hey, I appreciate your good manners Mr Maxmars but this is a DISCUSSION board and I was discussing. My remarks were off topic so I wanted to share them but not post them. So, I'm OK with Mr mybigunit. Mr M and I have not corresponded previously, so if I wanted to maintain privacy, the burden would be on me to say so in my communication which I did not ask.
As to the comeback post by Mr mybigunit, I'm going to take some more time to reply. Right now - 6:35 PM in Jacksonville - I'm going to supper.
More Later
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
. . you really shouldn't share u2u's like this. I would expect all my u2u's to be private between me and the recipient. Unless of course he was OK with it, in which case I should just shut up now .
Hey, I appreciate your good manners Mr Maxmars but this is a DISCUSSION board and I was discussing. My remarks were off topic so I wanted to share them but not post them. So, I'm OK with Mr mybigunit. Mr M and I have not corresponded previously, so if I wanted to maintain privacy, the burden would be on me to say so in my communication which I did not ask.
As to the comeback post by Mr mybigunit, I'm going to take some more time to reply. Right now - 6:35 PM in Jacksonville - I'm going to supper.
More Later
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
reply to post by mybigunit
1) That’s correct. In 1933 the US enjoyed 4 different kinds of money. Red seal ink was the United States Note. An IOU issued by the US Treasury. Yellow seal ink was currency backed by gold and redeemable at various places for gold. Outlawed in 1933. Blue seal ink was the popular silver certificate, redeemable at any bank for silver coins. And green ink seals. The Federal Reserve note. It is the only currency currently printed and distributed. It’s acceptance around the world depends entirely on the FAITH the people in the exchange have in the United States of America.
By the bye, the historic price of gold had been $20 an ounce. In 1933, the government ordered the turning in of gold coins but paid $35 an ounce, nearly double the going price. That is why there was very little complaining.
2) I ask anyone to compare the difficulty of getting a quick decision out of Congress - 535 members each elected on his or her own - and 5 delegates - whereas the Fed Reserve Board of Governors is made up of 12 members. (12 is s significant number in Judeo-Christian culture). I believe the Board meets every 6 weeks.
3) Audited? I don’t know. I’m not sure the Federal Reserve System needs an ordinary audit. Their product is printed money and the service of setting interest rates they charge to banks for loans of OUR money. The overnight rate is the most common one we hear about. At midnight, every bank must balance its books. If its “short” of money - i.e., loaned more that day then they had on hand - they have to “borrow” from the Fed to balance.
I imagine a large bank would “run” an account that would fluctuate daily. Also the “discount” rate is important. Say the discount rate is 5%. That means the bank borrows $100 million from the Fed but gets its hands on only $95 million but it owes $100 million. A loan where the interest is deducted in advance is a “discount” loan.
4) You can get all the data on the Federal debt at firstgov.org. I believe the debt is about $7 t. and we pay about 4.5% interest on that, making about $310 b. a year in interest payments. Out current budget is $3.3 t. so we are paying about 10% of the budget in interest. No other entity on Earth could borrow $7 t. and pay only 4.5% interest! That is a great compliment people all around the world have in the Unites States of America!
It self-corrects. If there is TOO much money, we have INFLATION. If there is TOO little money we have DEFLATION. The Fed can’t stop either from following the money supply. It is generally accepted that 2% inflation per annum is the best of all possible worlds. A rising tide floats all ships. OTOH, too much inflation is destructive. Look up the Weimar Republic in the 1920s to see the worst example in modern times.
The banker’s nightmare is the borrower will get “ahead” of him. When that happens - the borrower owes too much - the banker has in effect become a partner with the borrower. The lender cannot let the borrower fail! That is why we “gave” or “loaned” $200 b. to the BIG BOYS on Wall Street. As much as I hate them we have to keep them afloat. Believe me, if I was Robespierre Junior, I’d take my guillotine down to Wall Street for its first demonstration. But for now, we need them.
Look, just as in the banker-borrower scenario above, Iran needs the revenue from its oil to stay afloat. Likewise Russia and more so Venezuela. Iran exports about 3 mbd - million barrels a day - and likewise for Russia and Venezuela. Say 10 mbd for all three. World production is about 85 mbd but consumption runs around 84 mbd. Good for producers but bad for consumers.
Look at it this way, which country - the US, the RF, Iran or Venezuela - can stand the high prices of oil the BEST or the easiest? All three of those countries will FALL long before the US trips. Relax.
Look, the Netherlands first voted NO then France - the kingpin of the EU - voted NO to the 300 page EU Constitution. It is problematic if the EU will ever get a constitution. Again, the EU is only an irritant to the US. Want to see a real paper tiger? Look at Brussels and Strasbourg. But not at W-DC.
I used to know but for now say the US owns 700 million ounces of gold. At $800 an ounce that’s 56 to the 10th power. $560 b. But just a year ago the price of gold was $400 an ounce or less. I submit the world’s economy could not function with price fluctuations of such magnitudes in the short time periods. And most countries around the world do not have any gold at all. How could they engage in global commerce with no money? There are too many people today and we are too interdependent for gold, silver, platinum or even uranium to be used as money.
With electronic fund transfers, even paper is TOO slow for today’s commerce. We have about $400 b. of greenbacks in circulation. 65% here, 35% abroad. The true “world’s currency.” As for the Rockefeller-types we will always have them. Even in socialism, some people are MORE equal than others.
I’d like to think both Jefferson and Hamilton would be strong central government Democrats if they were alive today. But alas, they are not but we are so we must find a way to manage a $14 t. economy with 300+ million people over nearly 4 million square miles. We are far past the time of “small” government whatever that meant then. My advice? Buy some K-Y Jelly.
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
(1) Fiat currencies have no value. Its only worth the paper its printed on that that is one of my issues and the second is it is just unconstitutional. (2) You are essentially giving one of the governments most powerful weapons the power of its own currency to a select few people. (3) Federally regulated let me ask you when do you think the last time the federal reserve was audited? (4) With that being said it also bugs me that every year 30 to 40% of our tax dollars goes to pay interest on all of this fiat money that was borrowed.
1) That’s correct. In 1933 the US enjoyed 4 different kinds of money. Red seal ink was the United States Note. An IOU issued by the US Treasury. Yellow seal ink was currency backed by gold and redeemable at various places for gold. Outlawed in 1933. Blue seal ink was the popular silver certificate, redeemable at any bank for silver coins. And green ink seals. The Federal Reserve note. It is the only currency currently printed and distributed. It’s acceptance around the world depends entirely on the FAITH the people in the exchange have in the United States of America.
By the bye, the historic price of gold had been $20 an ounce. In 1933, the government ordered the turning in of gold coins but paid $35 an ounce, nearly double the going price. That is why there was very little complaining.
2) I ask anyone to compare the difficulty of getting a quick decision out of Congress - 535 members each elected on his or her own - and 5 delegates - whereas the Fed Reserve Board of Governors is made up of 12 members. (12 is s significant number in Judeo-Christian culture). I believe the Board meets every 6 weeks.
3) Audited? I don’t know. I’m not sure the Federal Reserve System needs an ordinary audit. Their product is printed money and the service of setting interest rates they charge to banks for loans of OUR money. The overnight rate is the most common one we hear about. At midnight, every bank must balance its books. If its “short” of money - i.e., loaned more that day then they had on hand - they have to “borrow” from the Fed to balance.
I imagine a large bank would “run” an account that would fluctuate daily. Also the “discount” rate is important. Say the discount rate is 5%. That means the bank borrows $100 million from the Fed but gets its hands on only $95 million but it owes $100 million. A loan where the interest is deducted in advance is a “discount” loan.
4) You can get all the data on the Federal debt at firstgov.org. I believe the debt is about $7 t. and we pay about 4.5% interest on that, making about $310 b. a year in interest payments. Out current budget is $3.3 t. so we are paying about 10% of the budget in interest. No other entity on Earth could borrow $7 t. and pay only 4.5% interest! That is a great compliment people all around the world have in the Unites States of America!
I know your response is well all of the money is put back into the treasury that the FED makes. How do you know?
It self-corrects. If there is TOO much money, we have INFLATION. If there is TOO little money we have DEFLATION. The Fed can’t stop either from following the money supply. It is generally accepted that 2% inflation per annum is the best of all possible worlds. A rising tide floats all ships. OTOH, too much inflation is destructive. Look up the Weimar Republic in the 1920s to see the worst example in modern times.
The time of our ways are coming to an end for we are pissing more and more of these countries who are buying all of this currency of ours and if they all decide to dump one day guess what.
The banker’s nightmare is the borrower will get “ahead” of him. When that happens - the borrower owes too much - the banker has in effect become a partner with the borrower. The lender cannot let the borrower fail! That is why we “gave” or “loaned” $200 b. to the BIG BOYS on Wall Street. As much as I hate them we have to keep them afloat. Believe me, if I was Robespierre Junior, I’d take my guillotine down to Wall Street for its first demonstration. But for now, we need them.
Now this also doesn’t take into effect the oil factor. Right now the oil is pegged in dollars except for three countries who are refusing to peg in dollars Iran, Venezuela, and Russia.
Look, just as in the banker-borrower scenario above, Iran needs the revenue from its oil to stay afloat. Likewise Russia and more so Venezuela. Iran exports about 3 mbd - million barrels a day - and likewise for Russia and Venezuela. Say 10 mbd for all three. World production is about 85 mbd but consumption runs around 84 mbd. Good for producers but bad for consumers.
Look at it this way, which country - the US, the RF, Iran or Venezuela - can stand the high prices of oil the BEST or the easiest? All three of those countries will FALL long before the US trips. Relax.
What happens if a country like Iran floods the market with cheap oil and then says Ill give you this oil cheap but it needs to be bought in euros where is our currency going to go? Ill tell you where right down the damn tubes and once again the working people will be left in the dust.
Look, the Netherlands first voted NO then France - the kingpin of the EU - voted NO to the 300 page EU Constitution. It is problematic if the EU will ever get a constitution. Again, the EU is only an irritant to the US. Want to see a real paper tiger? Look at Brussels and Strasbourg. But not at W-DC.
Now on to what solves the issue. If our currency was gold backed or backed by anything with value instead of this debt backed currency it would force the government to watch its spending habits which means lower taxes and no income taxes. Keep in mind the IRS wasn’t formed till 1913 the same time as the FED why? Because with the fiat system you need high taxes to keep the value of that currency strong. You wonder how the Rockefellers of the world has their endless amount of money and power and its all goes back to ownership of the FED.
I used to know but for now say the US owns 700 million ounces of gold. At $800 an ounce that’s 56 to the 10th power. $560 b. But just a year ago the price of gold was $400 an ounce or less. I submit the world’s economy could not function with price fluctuations of such magnitudes in the short time periods. And most countries around the world do not have any gold at all. How could they engage in global commerce with no money? There are too many people today and we are too interdependent for gold, silver, platinum or even uranium to be used as money.
With electronic fund transfers, even paper is TOO slow for today’s commerce. We have about $400 b. of greenbacks in circulation. 65% here, 35% abroad. The true “world’s currency.” As for the Rockefeller-types we will always have them. Even in socialism, some people are MORE equal than others.
Im a Thomas Jefferson kind of guy not an Alexander Hamilton kind of guy I think he was in bed with the English and that why he wanted the English style banking system when you look at his war stances during the proxy french American war you will see...
I’d like to think both Jefferson and Hamilton would be strong central government Democrats if they were alive today. But alas, they are not but we are so we must find a way to manage a $14 t. economy with 300+ million people over nearly 4 million square miles. We are far past the time of “small” government whatever that meant then. My advice? Buy some K-Y Jelly.
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
Ok Don dont go anywhere its going to take me a sec to respond.....give me 10 min lots of typing
reply to post by donwhite
Ok and yes sorry if I offended you by posting your U2U but I do feel this would be a good
intellegent discussion between two intellegent people so I had to do this and get others input
in the mean time. With that backscratching out of the way lets get down to business.
Sure they can get an audit. The fed loans out billions of dollars a year and they get interest on this money. Now when the fed was created it is supposed to take all the money made minus expenses and give it to the treasury. But we do not know if this is happening or if they are giving the correct amounts because there are no audits. I'm sure you're right there would have to be a way to do it that probably i'snt normal I don't know but there has to be a way so we can make sure that money is being put to where it is supposed to go and not being funneled into certain individuals pockets.
Right now our budget is 9 trillion heading for 10. 5 trillion of that debt is held by our own fed which means we pay 200 billion a year in interest to our own bank and the other debt is held by other countries and banks. See the two links below
www.fms.treas.gov...
www.treas.gov...
and here is a bar chart confirming your point of the 9% we pay in interest
So there yo are correct. But with the 800 billion dollar deficit we will push over 10 trillion in debt. At 4.5% that is 450 billion dollars and 4.5% is not an exact number it varies but that still a lot of tax payer dollars going to banks when this is money we should be creating ourselves and its a lot of money going to banks when ..
We have to be the worlds police
We have to fund all the entitlements
We have our roads,bridges, and infrastructure crumbling before our very eyes
When we have to run our local police state (war on drugs, prostitution, certain religious sects etc)
When we just have a huge overall government we have to support that 400 billion could be going to other places.
Now as far as inflation I understand inflation. Now according to M3 numbers we went from 10 trillion in outstanding money to 14 trillion since 2005. That my friend is creating a lot of money in a short amount of time. People wonder why the dollar is in the crapper well there you go...and we contiunue to print like its going out of style. Now before a lot of countries like China would buy this spare money to keep inflation tame but now not only are they talking about not buying anymore of our currency they are talking about dumping it which continues to hurt the dollar. Gold however has kept up with inflation. Per your numbers above in the 30s it was $20 an oz where as now it is $870 or so. But the value of our dollar hasnt gone up since then no in fact it has lost approx 80% of its value since then.
As far as lending 200 billion to the boys on the street that number is closer to 475 billion dec the fed had 775 worth of treasuries and now has 300 billion. Now I dont know those numbers to be 100% accurate but I have heard of numbers as high as 600 billion on CNBC. The feds balance sheet is in a world of hurt so what going to happen hey lets print more money and devalue some more.
Our government has more gold than that I sent you a link in a post below this one our government holds the most gold by far in the world. That isnt even including what the normal people here holds that the government will take from us when our currency crash happens and yes it will happen.
Jefferson was farrrrrr from a central government democrat that was John Adams. Jefferson was quite the opposite. He belived in states rights and the the peoples rights to control the government not the government controlling them where as John Adams was really what we would call the Democrat he was for big government and what not. John Adams was also weary of a central bank really the main advocater for the bank was Hamilton because Hamilton WAS a banker.(BTW I happen to believe Republicans are the big government ones but that is for another thread) Once again look at when these banks are formed right around war time after 1812 the second bank was formed, during the civil war, just before WW1, I mean there is a reason for this Ill let you put 2 and 2 together.
I really need to pound in this oil issue and make sure you are understanding what I mean and how serious this is. When I was telling you about Iran think about this. With oil being pegged to the dollar it keeps the currency in demand which is why countries buy our currency so they have it on hand to but oil and what not. So what happens if Iran says forget Opec and all you guys. If you guys buy all your oil direct from us instead of on the way overpriced open market where speculators have way over done the price we will sell it for $30 a barrel but to get it this cheap it needs to be done in euros. So what is going to happen all these countries are going to dump the dollar and buy euros so they can get their hands on the cheap gas. Once again supply in demand when you have more people dumping the dollar than buying it hey more inflation. There are rumors this is why we have issues with Iran and that it has nothing to do with nukes. That want to collapse our financial system and that is how they are going to do it.
In final all of this inflation devaluation has to affect someone the disappearing value cant come without a cost. So who does it affect. It doesn't affect the people who control the money the first ones to lend it and use it no it affects the end user which is essentially us people. It is like another hidden fee they dont want you to know about. On top of the costs to us we have fought wars and lost lives for the sake of protecting our currency and financial system and continue to to this day. I feel our currency should be gold and silver backed and the value of gold traded on the free market like it has been. That way at least if something happens we have something to back it up.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
Ok and yes sorry if I offended you by posting your U2U but I do feel this would be a good
intellegent discussion between two intellegent people so I had to do this and get others input
in the mean time. With that backscratching out of the way lets get down to business.
3) Audited? I don’t know. I’m not sure the Federal Reserve System needs an ordinary audit. Their product is printed money and the service of setting interest rates they charge to banks for loans of OUR money. The overnight rate is the most common one we hear about. At midnight, every bank must balance its books. If its “short” of money - i.e., loaned more that day then they had on hand - they have to “borrow” from the Fed to balance.
Sure they can get an audit. The fed loans out billions of dollars a year and they get interest on this money. Now when the fed was created it is supposed to take all the money made minus expenses and give it to the treasury. But we do not know if this is happening or if they are giving the correct amounts because there are no audits. I'm sure you're right there would have to be a way to do it that probably i'snt normal I don't know but there has to be a way so we can make sure that money is being put to where it is supposed to go and not being funneled into certain individuals pockets.
4) You can get all the data on the Federal debt at firstgov.org. I believe the debt is about $7 t. and we pay about 4.5% interest on that, making about $310 b. a year in interest payments. Out current budget is $3.3 t. so we are paying about 10% of the budget in interest. No other entity on Earth could borrow $7 t. and pay only 4.5% interest! That is a great compliment people all around the world have in the Unites States of America!
Right now our budget is 9 trillion heading for 10. 5 trillion of that debt is held by our own fed which means we pay 200 billion a year in interest to our own bank and the other debt is held by other countries and banks. See the two links below
www.fms.treas.gov...
www.treas.gov...
and here is a bar chart confirming your point of the 9% we pay in interest
So there yo are correct. But with the 800 billion dollar deficit we will push over 10 trillion in debt. At 4.5% that is 450 billion dollars and 4.5% is not an exact number it varies but that still a lot of tax payer dollars going to banks when this is money we should be creating ourselves and its a lot of money going to banks when ..
We have to be the worlds police
We have to fund all the entitlements
We have our roads,bridges, and infrastructure crumbling before our very eyes
When we have to run our local police state (war on drugs, prostitution, certain religious sects etc)
When we just have a huge overall government we have to support that 400 billion could be going to other places.
Now as far as inflation I understand inflation. Now according to M3 numbers we went from 10 trillion in outstanding money to 14 trillion since 2005. That my friend is creating a lot of money in a short amount of time. People wonder why the dollar is in the crapper well there you go...and we contiunue to print like its going out of style. Now before a lot of countries like China would buy this spare money to keep inflation tame but now not only are they talking about not buying anymore of our currency they are talking about dumping it which continues to hurt the dollar. Gold however has kept up with inflation. Per your numbers above in the 30s it was $20 an oz where as now it is $870 or so. But the value of our dollar hasnt gone up since then no in fact it has lost approx 80% of its value since then.
As far as lending 200 billion to the boys on the street that number is closer to 475 billion dec the fed had 775 worth of treasuries and now has 300 billion. Now I dont know those numbers to be 100% accurate but I have heard of numbers as high as 600 billion on CNBC. The feds balance sheet is in a world of hurt so what going to happen hey lets print more money and devalue some more.
Our government has more gold than that I sent you a link in a post below this one our government holds the most gold by far in the world. That isnt even including what the normal people here holds that the government will take from us when our currency crash happens and yes it will happen.
Jefferson was farrrrrr from a central government democrat that was John Adams. Jefferson was quite the opposite. He belived in states rights and the the peoples rights to control the government not the government controlling them where as John Adams was really what we would call the Democrat he was for big government and what not. John Adams was also weary of a central bank really the main advocater for the bank was Hamilton because Hamilton WAS a banker.(BTW I happen to believe Republicans are the big government ones but that is for another thread) Once again look at when these banks are formed right around war time after 1812 the second bank was formed, during the civil war, just before WW1, I mean there is a reason for this Ill let you put 2 and 2 together.
I really need to pound in this oil issue and make sure you are understanding what I mean and how serious this is. When I was telling you about Iran think about this. With oil being pegged to the dollar it keeps the currency in demand which is why countries buy our currency so they have it on hand to but oil and what not. So what happens if Iran says forget Opec and all you guys. If you guys buy all your oil direct from us instead of on the way overpriced open market where speculators have way over done the price we will sell it for $30 a barrel but to get it this cheap it needs to be done in euros. So what is going to happen all these countries are going to dump the dollar and buy euros so they can get their hands on the cheap gas. Once again supply in demand when you have more people dumping the dollar than buying it hey more inflation. There are rumors this is why we have issues with Iran and that it has nothing to do with nukes. That want to collapse our financial system and that is how they are going to do it.
In final all of this inflation devaluation has to affect someone the disappearing value cant come without a cost. So who does it affect. It doesn't affect the people who control the money the first ones to lend it and use it no it affects the end user which is essentially us people. It is like another hidden fee they dont want you to know about. On top of the costs to us we have fought wars and lost lives for the sake of protecting our currency and financial system and continue to to this day. I feel our currency should be gold and silver backed and the value of gold traded on the free market like it has been. That way at least if something happens we have something to back it up.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
en.wikipedia.org...
There is how much gold we have. Now I dont want to base this as fact but it seems accurate. If we went back to the gold standard America would benefit because we hold most of the gold.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
There is how much gold we have. Now I dont want to base this as fact but it seems accurate. If we went back to the gold standard America would benefit because we hold most of the gold.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]
reply to post by mybigunit
That puts the US gold reserve at 225 million ounces. I said 700 million, but I can live with the lower 225 number. I have also read that the gold is divided in about equal amounts and stored in three places. Ft. Knox. The Federal Reserve Bank in NYC, and at a facility in upstate NY. I've heard the name but I don't recall it now.
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
There is how much gold we have. Now I dont want to base this as fact but it seems accurate. If we went back to the gold standard America would benefit because we hold most of the gold.
That puts the US gold reserve at 225 million ounces. I said 700 million, but I can live with the lower 225 number. I have also read that the gold is divided in about equal amounts and stored in three places. Ft. Knox. The Federal Reserve Bank in NYC, and at a facility in upstate NY. I've heard the name but I don't recall it now.
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by mybigunit
There is how much gold we have. Now I dont want to base this as fact but it seems accurate. If we went back to the gold standard America would benefit because we hold most of the gold.
That puts the US gold reserve at 225 million ounces. I said 700 million, but I can live with the lower 225 number. I have also read that the gold is divided in about equal amounts and stored in three places. Ft. Knox. The Federal Reserve Bank in NYC, and at a facility in upstate NY. I've heard the name but I don't recall it now.
[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]
I dont know if the amount matters...I mean if we went to a gold backed dollar we would have 200+ billion dollars worth but that also makes the dollar much stronger which means things are much cheaper so if your argument is well if we got rid of the fiat money then we would only have 200 billion dollars to our name....but Im sure people would be rushing to buy our valuable currency killing inflation dead in its tracks. Im going to attempt to do the math but if oil is 800 an ounce which its actually more right now but im guesstimating a tank of gas under the new dollar would be $.30 a gallon maybe because gold has held up with the inflating gas....
If I had to choose between 200 billion in fiat money or 200 billion in gold to me its a no brainer.
What I also didnt throw in there is silver reserves...Im for gold and silver backed money and people can choose the currency this wish. Choice Don not stuck with one money that is inflated and inflated to pay for massive spending and benefits of a select few bankers.
[edit on 14-5-2008 by mybigunit]
reply to post by mybigunit
Frankly, I don’t like either of those links. TOO much data and TOO many esoteric references to innumerable accounts and etc. As relates to the Federal or National Debt, I refer you to the following link: www.brillig.com...
The national debt today is $9.369 t. and it is growing at $1.58 b. per day. This site has other links including one that says the 2008 Federal budget is $3.1 t. Try it.
Aside: In regards to the interest on the national debt. Despite the constant call of wolf Social Security has not yet gone broke. (And it won’t either). Same for Medicare. Both Trust Funds are now and always have been “in the black.” This means the ENTIRE national debt is attributable to “all other” expenses of the Federal government.
If you exclude the 21% for SS and the 19% for Medicare, which is 40% of Federal expenditures and the 9% paid on debt interest, you have HALF of the Federal outlays 100% responsible for the Federal debt. If you add the 21% allotted to Defense and Security, and add the $38 b. for the Department of Veterans Affairs - which ought to be $54 b. - and 80% of the interest payment, you can see the COST OF WAR is about 30% of our Federal budget. Around $1 t. + per year. End.
Right now our budget is 9 trillion heading for 10. 5 trillion of that debt is held by our own fed which means we pay 200 billion a year in interest to our own bank and the other debt is held by other countries and banks. See the two links below
www.fms.treas.gov...
www.treas.gov...
Frankly, I don’t like either of those links. TOO much data and TOO many esoteric references to innumerable accounts and etc. As relates to the Federal or National Debt, I refer you to the following link: www.brillig.com...
The national debt today is $9.369 t. and it is growing at $1.58 b. per day. This site has other links including one that says the 2008 Federal budget is $3.1 t. Try it.
Aside: In regards to the interest on the national debt. Despite the constant call of wolf Social Security has not yet gone broke. (And it won’t either). Same for Medicare. Both Trust Funds are now and always have been “in the black.” This means the ENTIRE national debt is attributable to “all other” expenses of the Federal government.
If you exclude the 21% for SS and the 19% for Medicare, which is 40% of Federal expenditures and the 9% paid on debt interest, you have HALF of the Federal outlays 100% responsible for the Federal debt. If you add the 21% allotted to Defense and Security, and add the $38 b. for the Department of Veterans Affairs - which ought to be $54 b. - and 80% of the interest payment, you can see the COST OF WAR is about 30% of our Federal budget. Around $1 t. + per year. End.
Originally posted by donwhite
Frankly, I don’t like either of those links. TOO much data and TOO many esoteric references to innumerable accounts and etc. As relates to the Federal or National Debt, I refer you to the following link: www.brillig.com...
The national debt today is $9.369 t. and it is growing at $1.58 b. per day. This site has other links including one that says the 2008 Federal budget is $3.1 t. Try it.
Aside: In regards to the interest on the national debt. Despite the constant call of wolf Social Security has not yet gone broke. (And it won’t either). Same for Medicare. Both Trust Funds are now and always have been “in the black.” This means the ENTIRE national debt is attributable to “all other” expenses of the Federal government.
If you exclude the 21% for SS and the 19% for Medicare, which is 40% of Federal expenditures and the 9% paid on debt interest, you have HALF of the Federal outlays 100% responsible for the Federal debt. If you add the 21% allotted to Defense and Security, and add the $38 b. for the Department of Veterans Affairs - which ought to be $54 b. - and 80% of the interest payment, you can see the COST OF WAR is about 30% of our Federal budget. Around $1 t. + per year. End.
I use those numbers because those are the actual numbers from the government.
Now we are at 9.3 trillion in debt with the budget of 3.3 trillion but the deficit is over 800 billion dollars...add that to our 9.3 trillion and there is your 10 trillion deficit.
What numbers your leaving off of there and that does not show up on the graph is the supplementals that Bushy pushes through that is not on the budget like the 70 billion he just asked for. So in actuality the military spending is much much higher.
Also the 10% in interest on the 3.3 trillion budget is 10% but when we collected 2.4 trillion in taxes in 2007. So really if you figured we payed 450 billion in interest on 2.4 trillion in revenue that means that is 22% of our revenue goes to interest. I dont like to use budgets I like to work with money that is actually ours. I mean if our government worked with the money we have instead of printed money we probably wouldnt be talking about this right now because the dollar might be worth something right now.
Im just a believer that he who controls currency has huge amounts of power and I feel that our government should be doing it and not a private bank. Now they want to give the same bank that allowed this credit crisis more power to literally control the economy and to me this is absurd. Im for small government but the government has at least 3 roles they should play and that is defend the citizens, give people the opportunity to pursue happiness, and control our currency and economy. Beyond that I dont care private companies can do these other jobs like what UPS did to the postal service. When you have an unaudited really unregulated private bank we know as the FED there is to much room for corruption at my expense and I have to write a very big check to the IRS this year so I do care where my money is going and paying interest to bankers when those same banks bend me over on interest is not one place I like my money going...not when there are other options.
[edit on 14-5-2008 by mybigunit]
reply to post by mybigunit
Well MBU .. You wanted my response, and you may or may not like it.
I hate the Federal Reserve, and I despise the world currency situation .. for numerous reasons that all may or may not be revealed in this post.
HOWEVER ....
There is such a thing as a "necessary" evil.
The pretext for many who don't like the Fec's tactics or even very foundation for which they stand and where constructed is usually misconstrude and is based on a fallacy that is never properly explained.
For instance.. there is no difference between "nothing" and Gold.
Gold is essentially nothing, as is the basis for the world Currencies. We print dollars "from nothing" but however, are actually based on something. Faith. And Gold's value has no constant nor devine value messuring system. It is essentially based on faith. Faith that, with my once of Gold I can buy some rice, a weapon, a car, some oil. And the only reason people take it is because they know someone somewhere will take it for the same or different products.
Thus it has value.
But there is a very, very limited amount of Gold. Nations used to go to war for Gold. Entire nations, entire populations, entire histories where wiped out in the persuit of solid wealth that Gold represented.
And the only logical alternative from our current monetary situation is two things. Personal Value, which we are heading to, and Gold.
Say I am the Fed. I print $10 and I give it to someone. That person can then buy something with it, because people take it. If everyone wants one of those $1's out of the $10, it has value, and it's value goes up.. thus, he buys more. If no one will take it, it's worth more burnt for heat then it is in his pocket.
Say I am the Fed. I give out 10 ounces of Gold. I have 10 ounces of Gold, and I can buy anything because people want my Gold. If everyone wants it, people will give me services, and because Gold is a limited unrenewable resource, my value can inflate at incredible rates. Because I hold my Gold I am wealthy, and because others cannot get any, they are poor. Thus my Gold goes so much further then it once did, for .0001 ounces I could get a decent service. However, if everyone has Gold, my Gold is worthless, and is worth more back in the mines because it cost more to get it then to trade it.
See what I am saying?
To rule a currency in the world markets, a Country (political boundary) or Union (League of Countries within an Economic Zone *EU*) must keep a pace of economic growth to keep the currency in demand.
Here is the genius of the Fed.. and this I cannot deny.. it is simply the most brilliant scheme every created that it will be forever hailed by historians as the single greatest invention EVER.
They printed these Dollars based on Faith. They then combined the economic power with the Military power. This is nothing new, because every nation on Earth throughout history has done this. However, it was the first of it's kind. While all other currencies where based on Gold and Silver.. ours was based on Production. When the World went to War all the world's wealth was destroyed and devalued, however, the United States, because the Dollar was based on Production, made the first ever Profit on a war. The only time this has ever been done was on a Private level, not national, when the Rothchilds after Waterloo bought up a large portion of the British Economy on false information. The US however produced the weapons of War for the Allies, the war escalated production, the Dollar soared.
Then the real genius.
If anyone in the world wanted something the US controlled, be it Tanks, Guns, Oil, Bullets, Planes, even man power.. they needed Dollars. Even for uniforms, canteens, backpacks, boots, Jeeps.. they needed a Dollar for everything. So the US gladly gave them in return for services.
For over 60 years the World had a Single Currency. Anywhere in the world, you could use a Dollar. Even the USSR had vast reserves of American Dollars. If you wanted to buy oil from any nation in the world.. you got it, you needed a Dollar.
So as long as everyone needed them, they where worth something.
This made America what it is.
This very scheme let American's buy single family homes spread over large areas. Cars, computers, personal businesses, homes, your gas, your lazy boy and your beer. Without it, 300 million people would not live like God's in the eyes of 3rd world nations. It was because everyone in the world needed our supposed "fake" currency that we live the lifestyle we have!
If it goes away.. we loose EVERYTHING.
So is the Fed a part of a NWO? No.. not at all.. it is apart of an OLD WORLD ORDER. It's dieing.. it served it's purpose for longer then anyone could imagine. But now the whole world uses our system. The EU use Euros, based on Production only.. the fact that if people want to do business they have a choice between Yen, Rubbles and Euros. The Dollar thus, looses value.
Inflation.
The Fed is trying desperatly to stay affloat.. so we will use our military to secure the largest source of need in regards to our Dollars == Oil. We secure oil in Dollars, the world needs us. If they need us, we keep our life style.
We keep our life style, the rich stay rich.
I believe the system is now exhausted .. to much competition.. we still have a stance but it will require a very different line of ideologies. American's are to complacent, they worry to much about other people and they consider an immoral government "bad" .. which is bizzar beyond belief. Unless that changes, I don't see America staying "number one" for long. When economic strength begins to depreciate, military strength must be used to ensure it's continued existance. Profit through war.
It works exactly like Gold. Only instead of securing Gold we secure the resource people want and make them pay for it in Dollars. where another currency is competing, instead of stealing the currency, you destroy it.
Why does the Fed jack up their own currency on purpose? To over value other currencies. Now nations that cannot handle such a strong currency are suffering.. Iceland is near bankrupcy, March 15th 2008 Ireland experienced the "Saint Patricks Day Massacre" on their markets, the differences between Poverty and Wealthy are escalating in the Middle East and in nations like France and Spain where there where already problems. Just because you see the Dollar fall and the Euro rise, does NOT mean it is a good thing for the Europeans. And it was horrific for Japan. Their currency got to the point where companies who mainly sell to American's began loosing money on every sale, Billions in revenue where lost instantly.
The Fed does not work "against" you exactly, but rather, for your own good..
Now who feels the effects of all this? The poor and the Middle Class.. sort of "sacrificing" a large portion of the population so that the rest of the population can keep their way of life.
Is that a bad thing? I think so, I would rather see direct action to solve our problems instead of beating everyone else's economy into a pulp and then continueing on with a defunct system. A system of debt that has reached it's breaking point, only, instead of solving the problems we are simply taking the easy way out and continueing the problem to blow up 10 years down the road.
Well MBU .. You wanted my response, and you may or may not like it.
I hate the Federal Reserve, and I despise the world currency situation .. for numerous reasons that all may or may not be revealed in this post.
HOWEVER ....
There is such a thing as a "necessary" evil.
The pretext for many who don't like the Fec's tactics or even very foundation for which they stand and where constructed is usually misconstrude and is based on a fallacy that is never properly explained.
For instance.. there is no difference between "nothing" and Gold.
Gold is essentially nothing, as is the basis for the world Currencies. We print dollars "from nothing" but however, are actually based on something. Faith. And Gold's value has no constant nor devine value messuring system. It is essentially based on faith. Faith that, with my once of Gold I can buy some rice, a weapon, a car, some oil. And the only reason people take it is because they know someone somewhere will take it for the same or different products.
Thus it has value.
But there is a very, very limited amount of Gold. Nations used to go to war for Gold. Entire nations, entire populations, entire histories where wiped out in the persuit of solid wealth that Gold represented.
And the only logical alternative from our current monetary situation is two things. Personal Value, which we are heading to, and Gold.
Say I am the Fed. I print $10 and I give it to someone. That person can then buy something with it, because people take it. If everyone wants one of those $1's out of the $10, it has value, and it's value goes up.. thus, he buys more. If no one will take it, it's worth more burnt for heat then it is in his pocket.
Say I am the Fed. I give out 10 ounces of Gold. I have 10 ounces of Gold, and I can buy anything because people want my Gold. If everyone wants it, people will give me services, and because Gold is a limited unrenewable resource, my value can inflate at incredible rates. Because I hold my Gold I am wealthy, and because others cannot get any, they are poor. Thus my Gold goes so much further then it once did, for .0001 ounces I could get a decent service. However, if everyone has Gold, my Gold is worthless, and is worth more back in the mines because it cost more to get it then to trade it.
See what I am saying?
To rule a currency in the world markets, a Country (political boundary) or Union (League of Countries within an Economic Zone *EU*) must keep a pace of economic growth to keep the currency in demand.
Here is the genius of the Fed.. and this I cannot deny.. it is simply the most brilliant scheme every created that it will be forever hailed by historians as the single greatest invention EVER.
They printed these Dollars based on Faith. They then combined the economic power with the Military power. This is nothing new, because every nation on Earth throughout history has done this. However, it was the first of it's kind. While all other currencies where based on Gold and Silver.. ours was based on Production. When the World went to War all the world's wealth was destroyed and devalued, however, the United States, because the Dollar was based on Production, made the first ever Profit on a war. The only time this has ever been done was on a Private level, not national, when the Rothchilds after Waterloo bought up a large portion of the British Economy on false information. The US however produced the weapons of War for the Allies, the war escalated production, the Dollar soared.
Then the real genius.
If anyone in the world wanted something the US controlled, be it Tanks, Guns, Oil, Bullets, Planes, even man power.. they needed Dollars. Even for uniforms, canteens, backpacks, boots, Jeeps.. they needed a Dollar for everything. So the US gladly gave them in return for services.
For over 60 years the World had a Single Currency. Anywhere in the world, you could use a Dollar. Even the USSR had vast reserves of American Dollars. If you wanted to buy oil from any nation in the world.. you got it, you needed a Dollar.
So as long as everyone needed them, they where worth something.
This made America what it is.
This very scheme let American's buy single family homes spread over large areas. Cars, computers, personal businesses, homes, your gas, your lazy boy and your beer. Without it, 300 million people would not live like God's in the eyes of 3rd world nations. It was because everyone in the world needed our supposed "fake" currency that we live the lifestyle we have!
If it goes away.. we loose EVERYTHING.
So is the Fed a part of a NWO? No.. not at all.. it is apart of an OLD WORLD ORDER. It's dieing.. it served it's purpose for longer then anyone could imagine. But now the whole world uses our system. The EU use Euros, based on Production only.. the fact that if people want to do business they have a choice between Yen, Rubbles and Euros. The Dollar thus, looses value.
Inflation.
The Fed is trying desperatly to stay affloat.. so we will use our military to secure the largest source of need in regards to our Dollars == Oil. We secure oil in Dollars, the world needs us. If they need us, we keep our life style.
We keep our life style, the rich stay rich.
I believe the system is now exhausted .. to much competition.. we still have a stance but it will require a very different line of ideologies. American's are to complacent, they worry to much about other people and they consider an immoral government "bad" .. which is bizzar beyond belief. Unless that changes, I don't see America staying "number one" for long. When economic strength begins to depreciate, military strength must be used to ensure it's continued existance. Profit through war.
It works exactly like Gold. Only instead of securing Gold we secure the resource people want and make them pay for it in Dollars. where another currency is competing, instead of stealing the currency, you destroy it.
Why does the Fed jack up their own currency on purpose? To over value other currencies. Now nations that cannot handle such a strong currency are suffering.. Iceland is near bankrupcy, March 15th 2008 Ireland experienced the "Saint Patricks Day Massacre" on their markets, the differences between Poverty and Wealthy are escalating in the Middle East and in nations like France and Spain where there where already problems. Just because you see the Dollar fall and the Euro rise, does NOT mean it is a good thing for the Europeans. And it was horrific for Japan. Their currency got to the point where companies who mainly sell to American's began loosing money on every sale, Billions in revenue where lost instantly.
The Fed does not work "against" you exactly, but rather, for your own good..
Now who feels the effects of all this? The poor and the Middle Class.. sort of "sacrificing" a large portion of the population so that the rest of the population can keep their way of life.
Is that a bad thing? I think so, I would rather see direct action to solve our problems instead of beating everyone else's economy into a pulp and then continueing on with a defunct system. A system of debt that has reached it's breaking point, only, instead of solving the problems we are simply taking the easy way out and continueing the problem to blow up 10 years down the road.
Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by mybigunit
Well MBU .. You wanted my response, and you may or may not like it.
Dont care I just want an intelligent response whether I agree or not so thats why I called on my Irish brethren
Ok the gold in a sense I understand your point it is on faith correct but like you said unlike paper dollars there is only so much gold out there. Now there is a mentality out there that the more money out there the further along we can advance. Like you said there is only so much gold so how can we advance in society with only so much gold.
I respond to that its all relative. If there is only so much gold out there then it makes that gold worth all the more which means more buying power. I mean like I said in the thread earlier if we had a gold backed dollar right now gas here would maybe and this is a high guesstimate would be $.30 a gallon. Why? Because gold is the only thing that has kept up with inflation and really held its value. It goes through high and low times but it has always kept up. For example how many times have you heard of gold being at a 0 price. Never in fact if you find a sunken ship with gold on it its worth a lot of money even 500 years later. So to me it makes sense having a currency that has some sort of value.
Now as far as the paying for the resources in dollars that was the point I was trying make make with the oil and that could really come back to bite us. Like Iran if they flood the market with cheap oil everyone will want to buy that cheap oil in Euros so what happens to the dollar.
I mean we are in a situation right now where are are printing money to cover bad money and printing and printing..Bear Stearns need a bailout here you go heres 50 billion. People need a rebate check heres 180 billion ...banks need some loans here 400 billion....bushy u have a world police organization u need to fund here 1.5 trillion dollars and they print and print and print. They dont do this to overvalue other currencies thats not true it may have that effect but its not why they do it...I mean if I went and got a press and printed my own money I would get thrown in jail and that is what the fed is doing...its a fraud...here people give me YOUR house and Ill give you this paper..
Its funny because as Im typing this I just got this video emailed to me from a friend and it talks about exactly what we are talking about....
[edit on 15-5-2008 by mybigunit]
Well my friend your logic would seem correct, however there are a few giant holes.
Assume that all the Gold in the world where exchanged for the various currencies.
Gas WOULD be .30 a gallon.
However, you might only make 40 cents a day!
If we take Gold, which is Finite, and we divide it, those who produce the production will get the Gold, else, who ever is strongest retains it. So the actual Gold supply within the economy shrinks extensivly over time. Governments will hold vast reserves of it.
And while you see the Dollar drops, Gold rises, it is not keeping up with inflation .. because Gold it's self can be inflated.
For instance, if a Emperor of Rome wanted to appease the people and give a false sense of wealth, he opens the Coffers. Once the the coffers are opened, government Gold reserves are flooded into the Market. If everyone had an average of 1 ounce of Gold one day, then the next 3 ounces on average.. the price of EVERYTHING goes up by 3 as well.
Likewise, if the Governments or those who control wealth, consolidate wealth and Gold (also Silver, Copper, and so forth) the supply in the population drops and you have greater deflation.
Essentially, corporations could not exist in true form as they do today with a Gold Standard, which I personally wouldn't mind.. but our way of life would end as we know it. The preceived wealth that we live by CANNOT be bought by all the Gold in the world, which is only in the hundreds of tons.
Gold never secured personal wealth for a populace, but rather, was a form of control over a population! Why did Fudalism flurish when Gold was used? Because one man controlled the Gold, no man could invent something and bam, sell it on the internet and he's got ounces of Gold flowing in. Didn't work like that. Wealth is consolidated, and the more it is, the more value it has.. great for the wealthy, bad for the poor.
The only reason I like the prospect of Gold is that I don't believe it is a right of Humans to have infinite wealth, but rather, finite wealth. And that those who control wealth should control a real substance and the poor who do not, should not. Essentially the very reasons I say it is a bad system, are the reasons I like it. But I am also a Monarchist.
"I mean we are in a situation right now where are are printing money to cover bad money"
Just as I explained above, the EXACT same thing happens with Gold. The ONLY difference between Money and Gold is that one if Finite, one is Infinite, however, both are regulated by the same factors, only one uses larger numbers to represent inflation and deflation in actual substance.. that is, you can print more money to represent higher inflation, however, you cannot do that with Gold, however, that does not mean Inflation is not there. Believe it or not, that actually heightens a depressed economy .. economies regulated by Gold suffer far worse.
Gold is also very VERY hard to regulate. Where as all kinds of regulations can be given to an invisible money source.
It's a system of faith.. it was designed around a control of the World EConomy..
It will be impossible to revert back to the Old Ways pre 1920's.. without drastic change anyways...
Assume that all the Gold in the world where exchanged for the various currencies.
Gas WOULD be .30 a gallon.
However, you might only make 40 cents a day!
If we take Gold, which is Finite, and we divide it, those who produce the production will get the Gold, else, who ever is strongest retains it. So the actual Gold supply within the economy shrinks extensivly over time. Governments will hold vast reserves of it.
And while you see the Dollar drops, Gold rises, it is not keeping up with inflation .. because Gold it's self can be inflated.
For instance, if a Emperor of Rome wanted to appease the people and give a false sense of wealth, he opens the Coffers. Once the the coffers are opened, government Gold reserves are flooded into the Market. If everyone had an average of 1 ounce of Gold one day, then the next 3 ounces on average.. the price of EVERYTHING goes up by 3 as well.
Likewise, if the Governments or those who control wealth, consolidate wealth and Gold (also Silver, Copper, and so forth) the supply in the population drops and you have greater deflation.
Essentially, corporations could not exist in true form as they do today with a Gold Standard, which I personally wouldn't mind.. but our way of life would end as we know it. The preceived wealth that we live by CANNOT be bought by all the Gold in the world, which is only in the hundreds of tons.
Gold never secured personal wealth for a populace, but rather, was a form of control over a population! Why did Fudalism flurish when Gold was used? Because one man controlled the Gold, no man could invent something and bam, sell it on the internet and he's got ounces of Gold flowing in. Didn't work like that. Wealth is consolidated, and the more it is, the more value it has.. great for the wealthy, bad for the poor.
The only reason I like the prospect of Gold is that I don't believe it is a right of Humans to have infinite wealth, but rather, finite wealth. And that those who control wealth should control a real substance and the poor who do not, should not. Essentially the very reasons I say it is a bad system, are the reasons I like it. But I am also a Monarchist.
"I mean we are in a situation right now where are are printing money to cover bad money"
Just as I explained above, the EXACT same thing happens with Gold. The ONLY difference between Money and Gold is that one if Finite, one is Infinite, however, both are regulated by the same factors, only one uses larger numbers to represent inflation and deflation in actual substance.. that is, you can print more money to represent higher inflation, however, you cannot do that with Gold, however, that does not mean Inflation is not there. Believe it or not, that actually heightens a depressed economy .. economies regulated by Gold suffer far worse.
Gold is also very VERY hard to regulate. Where as all kinds of regulations can be given to an invisible money source.
It's a system of faith.. it was designed around a control of the World EConomy..
It will be impossible to revert back to the Old Ways pre 1920's.. without drastic change anyways...
But the fact that gold is finite as you like to put it makes it more valuable. Now I understand what you are saying in short without the 500 words
all you had to say was supply and demand People can hoard it and release it to inflate and deflate the value of gold and I agree I said that in
another post that the value of gold fluctuates just like the dollar that I understand.
But gold has never has a 0 value never ever ever ever. In the 20s and 30s gold was only $10 to $30 an oz now its $800 and oz so for you to say it hasnt kept up with inflation is just not true. Gold has gone up 800x its value or 8000x times Im not good at math since the Fed took us off the gold standard but the dollar is only 3% of its worth since 1913 so to say that it hasnt kept up just does not make sense to me. Gold will ALWAYS have a value which is more than I can say for the dollar.
Now as far as the wealth growing Rock its not real wealth its FAKE. This is the misconception that people have that oh I have all this money and Im going great well what happens with the currency crashes and mark my word it will happen because fiat currency has ALWAYS crashed I mean look at China in the 8th and 9th century and europe during the middle ages it always fails then you have to go back to hard money then go back to fiat in another form but it always fails. So all this wealth that people think they have wait till you wake up one morning and find out the dollar has crashed and all the banks have all the gold who makes out? Why do you think the banks and government stocks up on gold Rock...because they know...it may not be today or tomorrow or this year but I do think its coming in your and my lifetime. Im willing to bet on it in fact I do because I recently started buying gold...I started buying gold futures but I sold out and quit because I dont even trust trading gold paper I want the actual stuff.
www.usagold.com...
is a good site to look at but when you look at history and Ive told you this before and I know you love history also you will see it never lasts only for a hundred or so years then it reverts back to gold and silver backed then right back to fiat. One day the gig will be up and the people sitting on the gold (quietly that is because executive order 6102 say government can seize your gold in an "emergency") will be the ones who survive and whoever isnt packing will starve. Of course what do I know Im only 26 Ill bet you have heard that before.
But gold has never has a 0 value never ever ever ever. In the 20s and 30s gold was only $10 to $30 an oz now its $800 and oz so for you to say it hasnt kept up with inflation is just not true. Gold has gone up 800x its value or 8000x times Im not good at math since the Fed took us off the gold standard but the dollar is only 3% of its worth since 1913 so to say that it hasnt kept up just does not make sense to me. Gold will ALWAYS have a value which is more than I can say for the dollar.
Now as far as the wealth growing Rock its not real wealth its FAKE. This is the misconception that people have that oh I have all this money and Im going great well what happens with the currency crashes and mark my word it will happen because fiat currency has ALWAYS crashed I mean look at China in the 8th and 9th century and europe during the middle ages it always fails then you have to go back to hard money then go back to fiat in another form but it always fails. So all this wealth that people think they have wait till you wake up one morning and find out the dollar has crashed and all the banks have all the gold who makes out? Why do you think the banks and government stocks up on gold Rock...because they know...it may not be today or tomorrow or this year but I do think its coming in your and my lifetime. Im willing to bet on it in fact I do because I recently started buying gold...I started buying gold futures but I sold out and quit because I dont even trust trading gold paper I want the actual stuff.
www.usagold.com...
is a good site to look at but when you look at history and Ive told you this before and I know you love history also you will see it never lasts only for a hundred or so years then it reverts back to gold and silver backed then right back to fiat. One day the gig will be up and the people sitting on the gold (quietly that is because executive order 6102 say government can seize your gold in an "emergency") will be the ones who survive and whoever isnt packing will starve. Of course what do I know Im only 26 Ill bet you have heard that before.
But the fact that gold is finite as you like to put it makes it more valuable. Now I understand what you are saying in short without the 500 words all you had to say was supply and demand
Two things.
One, no, just because Gold is Finite does not make it valuable. The reason Gold became a popular source of money was that 1. It was hard to get, in a sense, yes, because it was finite. 2. It was pretty. 3. It does not corrode. You find Gold at the bottom of the sea it is exactly as it was when it entered the water, even after hundreds of years. 4. Portable and recognizeable and essentially universal.
Second thing. It has nothing at all to do with Supply and Demand. It's not a product, it is what it is.. it's basis is on how many people there are, how stretched is it, and depending upon how many there are determines it's wealth IN A WAY. However, not all societies used Gold, in fact, some used shells.. some used cows and sheep. Some used Jade, Silver, Copper, Beads, Bones, Nuts, stones, diamonds..
If you enter a society who trades only in odd shaped shells, your Gold is useless. Even if you have tons of it.
It's based 100% on faith.
So is the dollar.
People can hoard it and release it to inflate and deflate the value of gold and I agree I said that in another post that the value of gold fluctuates just like the dollar that I understand.
Yes.. but just because Gold is standard does not mean it's excepted. For example, the Government is saving up money to invade a country. People get taxed on how much Gold and Silver they have, the Gov takes it and puts it into the Coffers. The economy is maxed, people are poor, some are starving.
So what will the people do?
Barter. They don't even need the Gold.
Inflation with Gold is also not world wide as it is with our currency.. for isntance different countries will put a different value on Gold.. if you had Gold minted in the US and went to Lithuania they may not take Gold at all, and if you did find someone to take it, you may only get a fraction of what you could have Got in the US even though with a different monetary system like the modern one, there is an exchange rate.
But if the people of a political boundary don't except it because they don't have any anyways.. it's worthless.
But gold has never has a 0 value never ever ever ever. In the 20s and 30s gold was only $10 to $30 an oz now its $800 and oz so for you to say it hasnt kept up with inflation is just not true. Gold has gone up 800x its value or 8000x times Im not good at math since the Fed took us off the gold standard but the dollar is only 3% of its worth since 1913 so to say that it hasnt kept up just does not make sense to me. Gold will ALWAYS have a value which is more than I can say for the dollar.
Yes, it looses value? I don't have Gold. I don't want Gold. If you gave me Gold right now, I would sell it. What the hell do I want it for? If the economy crashes, I don't want it then, not even to sell, not to mint, not to forge. It's useless.
Right now, Gold has value because people hold onto it.. and the only reason the value "stays" with Inflation (it actually doesn't) is because more people have more dollars to buy what Gold there is.
It doesn't actually have a "value" at all.
In fact, an American can go to the ME or India or China or Africa and buy Gold dirt cheap (the big mining companies and jewelry companies do..) and then sell it at a hyper inflated price to Gold Hoarders.
Now as far as the wealth growing Rock its not real wealth its FAKE.
It is real, because it's based on the ability to exchange. Because you can take a dollar and go get a Happy Meal.. it IS real. If it where not you would be without a Happy Meal wouldn't you?
Money is defined by a substance (be it numbers in a computer or cotton money) that can be exchanged for goods and/or services.
Isn't that what a Dollar does?
Gold is exactly what Money is, only it's in a different form..
The only time money becomes worthless is when America stops producing.
oh I have all this money and Im going great well what happens with the currency crashes and mark my word it will happen because fiat currency has ALWAYS crashed I mean look at China in the 8th and 9th century and europe during the middle ages it always fails then you have to go back to hard money then go back to fiat in another form but it always fails.
What happens when the economy crashes? .. Well, it happens at least once or twice a century, and several smaller upsets. You just, start over. Really that simple.
If all the Dollars in the world where wiped away and made worth nothing.. you create a new one.
Gold can crash. It has, in fact, many, countless times Gold has fallen.. What do you do when you can only buy in Gold and another stronger country pillages your country to steal your Gold.. killing your people for Gold rings, Gold teeth and stored Gold bullion? ... curl up and die in a heap of self pity?
No. You find something else someone will exchange for a good or service.
So let's say the American Dollar collapses. The entire World enters a world wide depression.
America uses it's military to wage a war, world wide chaos.. all hell breaks loose.. essentially, America re-does what it did in the 1930-40's .. it, through strength dominates the world scene and forms it's self as the only world economy.
When the USSR and America where the top powers in the world.. why did the Rubble never replace the Dollar? .. Hell, when the USSR sold oil, they sold it in DOLLARS. Because we had the advantage, the production, and the power to enforce it.
Why do countries and people buy US bonds? .. Because they know Congress has the ability to destroy any nation who threatens us, and they have the unlimited ability to tax the # out of American's to ensure interest payments!
Has nothing to do with "value" at all .. because you can't value nothingness.. which is what Gold and Money are.
However, you CAN value FAITH.
Assurance.
Why do you think the banks and government stocks up on gold Rock...because they know...it may not be today or tomorrow or this year but I do think its coming in your and my lifetime.
Banks don't stock up on much Gold actually. Usually their holdings belong to someone else. For instance, the US stores more of the World's Gold then anyone else.. even though much of it is not ours.. the House of Saud actually stores large sums of their Gold stocks in America. And Countries use it for various reasons.. quite often financial exchanges are done in Gold, not currency, because Gold is more closely related in price then currencies world wide.. for instance, America rents Guantonomo (bad sp) bay from Cuba in Gold (which Castro has never excepted).
It's not for a plan that the world will at one point return to the Gold standard.
Did you know countries invest more money into Stocks and Bonds then they do Gold? They beat their Gold holdings by trillions of Dollars.
Im willing to bet on it in fact I do because I recently started buying gold...I started buying gold futures but I sold out and quit because I dont even trust trading gold paper I want the actual stuff.
I invested in a hand gun, some bullets and property with a well. Come to me with Gold and I might trade it for some produce, but only because I would feel bad for you and would hate to see you starve.
Only the Rich have a need or a reason to invest in Gold.
The only reason I would ever buy Gold is that it will never go down in value .. unless of course someone figures out how to make it in a lab .. which I don't doubt someone will eventually.. and that if I bought an ounce or two every year and kept it stored away .. my descendants will have something of value.
But the point I am trying to make is .. sh* hits the fan right.. who's gunna give a rats arse about Gold? I know the economy will NEVER go back to the Gold Standard because for Gold to represent the World wealth, corporations would be dealing with little Gold specks in tiny nano-ounces to represent their value.
Now This is the kind of Forum Discussion I like.
I theorized an oil-backed New Currency, with the addition of Mexico and Canada joining into economic and political alliance with America.
Now, what is your opinion on an N.A.U. scenario leading the way for a re-establishment of economic balance here domestically. I ask for you to review my response in the below mentioned thread.
Bigunit and Puck, your opinions and any others would be appreciated.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
-ADHD
I theorized an oil-backed New Currency, with the addition of Mexico and Canada joining into economic and political alliance with America.
Now, what is your opinion on an N.A.U. scenario leading the way for a re-establishment of economic balance here domestically. I ask for you to review my response in the below mentioned thread.
Bigunit and Puck, your opinions and any others would be appreciated.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
-ADHD
Two things.
One, no, just because Gold is Finite does not make it valuable. The reason Gold became a popular source of money was that 1. It was hard to get, in a sense, yes, because it was finite. 2. It was pretty. 3. It does not corrode. You find Gold at the bottom of the sea it is exactly as it was when it entered the water, even after hundreds of years. 4. Portable and recognizeable and essentially universal.
Second thing. It has nothing at all to do with Supply and Demand. It's not a product, it is what it is.. it's basis is on how many people there are, how stretched is it, and depending upon how many there are determines it's wealth IN A WAY. However, not all societies used Gold, in fact, some used shells.. some used cows and sheep. Some used Jade, Silver, Copper, Beads, Bones, Nuts, stones, diamonds..
First off supply and demand does go into affect of gold and you actually have admitted it several times in this post. Like you said if we went into a society of trading shells like u said then there would be no demand for gold therefore gold would be worthless were as if it was the main currency of the world it would probably be in high demand and worth more.
Now your fighting history and coming up with a lot of ifs...if the world went to shells, if the market crashes its worthless, etc etc but history is against you and that is what Im saying gold has never been worthless never ever ever ever ever ever ever it does fluctuate in pricing yes it does but that is due to supply and demand when its goes through high demand phases it is expensive and vice versa.
Yes.. but just because Gold is standard does not mean it's excepted. For example, the Government is saving up money to invade a country. People get taxed on how much Gold and Silver they have, the Gov takes it and puts it into the Coffers. The economy is maxed, people are poor, some are starving.
So what will the people do?
Barter. They don't even need the Gold.
Inflation with Gold is also not world wide as it is with our currency.. for isntance different countries will put a different value on Gold.. if you had Gold minted in the US and went to Lithuania they may not take Gold at all, and if you did find someone to take it, you may only get a fraction of what you could have Got in the US even though with a different monetary system like the modern one, there is an exchange rate.
But if the people of a political boundary don't except it because they don't have any anyways.. it's worthless.
Once again your going with ifs what if Lithuania doesnt accept gold history is against you most civilizations have always accepted gold...the native americans didnt at first they were on the barter system but they did start fast. Ok other countries could have different values for gold but I think that is eliminated if gold is traded on the free market like it is now. Now I know what your going to say or I would say this in response and that is well the dollar is traded on the free market. But the dollar value has less to do supply and more on government and FED policy where as gold generally goes up and down on demand. Also once again boundaries making it worthless it has never been worthless never ever ever ever.
TextIt is real, because it's based on the ability to exchange. Because you can take a dollar and go get a Happy Meal.. it IS real. If it where not you would be without a Happy Meal wouldn't you?
Money is defined by a substance (be it numbers in a computer or cotton money) that can be exchanged for goods and/or services.
Isn't that what a Dollar does?
Gold is exactly what Money is, only it's in a different form..
The only time money becomes worthless is when America stops producing.
Wont disagree with you gold is another form of money and the paper money you can buy a happy meal with or whatever right now because the government passed the law that thats all that can be accepted. It is like money I dont disagree but gold has held its value and is more valuable than the fiat American peso.
What happens when the economy crashes? .. Well, it happens at least once or twice a century, and several smaller upsets. You just, start over. Really that simple.
If all the Dollars in the world where wiped away and made worth nothing.. you create a new one.
Gold can crash. It has, in fact, many, countless times Gold has fallen.. What do you do when you can only buy in Gold and another stronger country pillages your country to steal your Gold.. killing your people for Gold rings, Gold teeth and stored Gold bullion? ... curl up and die in a heap of self pity?
No. You find something else someone will exchange for a good or service.
So let's say the American Dollar collapses. The entire World enters a world wide depression.
America uses it's military to wage a war, world wide chaos.. all hell breaks loose.. essentially, America re-does what it did in the 1930-40's .. it, through strength dominates the world scene and forms it's self as the only world economy.
Why do countries and people buy US bonds? .. Because they know Congress has the ability to destroy any nation who threatens us, and they have the unlimited ability to tax the # out of American's to ensure interest payments!
When the economy crashes you just start over? Tell that to the large population that starved to death during the great depression or hell more currently tell the south Vietnamese who when their country was screwed their currency became worthless. The families that turned their money into gold are the ones who made out like bandits.
Gold can crash but it never been worthless never ever ever ever ever
As far is military so what your saying is people have to die to enforce this fake money system? I dont mind dying to defend my family but not some money system.
As far as Russia using dollars and countries buying our currency check this thread out
www.abovetopsecret.com...
it explains why some countries use dollars to buy oil....it shows you how some will NOT use dollars and they happen to be the same countries we want to kill....I guess fighting for money.
Banks don't stock up on much Gold actually. Usually their holdings belong to someone else. For instance, the US stores more of the World's Gold then anyone else.. even though much of it is not ours.. the House of Saud actually stores large sums of their Gold stocks in America. And Countries use it for various reasons.. quite often financial exchanges are done in Gold, not currency, because Gold is more closely related in price then currencies world wide.. for instance, America rents Guantonomo (bad sp) bay from Cuba in Gold (which Castro has never excepted).
It's not for a plan that the world will at one point return to the Gold standard.
Did you know countries invest more money into Stocks and Bonds then they do Gold? They beat their Gold holdings by trillions of Dollars.
Banks dont stock up on gold? What about the World Bank or IMF? The Fed? or even our own treasury dept. Let me ask you something why does the big banks or governments of the world keep gold if their is no worry about collapse? Thats how you know gold will always have value look who has it all....
As far as going back to the gold standard I agree we wont voluntarily because all the right people are making the money right now but we will go back to the gold standard but we will eventually when a collapse happens.
I understand your point I really do your saying if the crap hits the fan i want food and guns instead of gold but just because a currency collapses doesnt mean civilization as we know it goes with it...banking and money will still exist it will just be gold backed thats all...once again if there was never a worry why does the governments and big world banks hold all this gold
[edit on 15-5-2008 by mybigunit]
Now your fighting history and coming up with a lot of ifs...if the world went to shells, if the market crashes its worthless, etc etc but history is against you and that is what Im saying gold has never been worthless never ever ever ever ever ever ever it does fluctuate in pricing yes it does but that is due to supply and demand when its goes through high demand phases it is expensive and vice versa.
Yes, supply and demand plays a part, as I have admitted.. but it is NOT the only factor. The biggest factor is quite simply people have to take it! Faith!
And while no, Gold has never been discarded entirely, ever, by all civilizations at once, however, currently it cost a lot of money to buy Gold. Imagine though if we did not wear Gold jewelry, Gold would not be nearly as high as it is. It is no longer used to back or peg money to .. the only value it holds is long term savings and jewelry (and electronics which also assisted in giving it a price increase)
But the very basic properties of how Gold work and even how you described it.. is EXACTLY how the Dollar works.
If you got a small amount of Dollars they are worth more, you got a big pile they are worth nothing.
Ok other countries could have different values for gold but I think that is eliminated if gold is traded on the free market like it is now. Now I know what your going to say or I would say this in response and that is well the dollar is traded on the free market. But the dollar value has less to do supply and more on government and FED policy where as gold generally goes up and down on demand. Also once again boundaries making it worthless it has never been worthless never ever ever ever.
So does Gold -- that is to say, it is ENTIRELY based on government actions. Hence taking or giving Gold into the economy.
Gold cannot be used as a currency peg because the world economy has long since exceded the days where Gold can be used.
Imagine doing several trillion dollars (just on the American stock exchanges) in a SINGLE day... in GOLD!!! Just imagine how small the Gold would have to be minted down to just to get a value as our current economy has? .. .00001 grams per coin?
because the government passed the law that thats all that can be accepted. It is like money I dont disagree but gold has held its value and is more valuable than the fiat American peso.
I don't think so. If we used Gold it would be because the Gov said so. What's the difference? Under the current system I can live a middle class life. Under the Gold system I would be dirt poor. We all would. There would be no flourishing capitalism with big screen tv's and happy meals.
I also consider Silver more valuable then Gold, if I bought 100 ounces of Silver and 100 of Gold, my Silver has gone up twice as much as Gold.
When the economy crashes you just start over? Tell that to the large population that starved to death during the great depression or hell more currently tell the south Vietnamese who when their country was screwed their currency became worthless.
Most of the deaths during the GD where actually suicide.
Anyways, You say tell that to the GD people who suffered. Tell your tale to the guys like me and even your self though you don't see it.. that instead of "fake" money we go to Gold.
So I trade all my Dollars and I might get maybe 5 ounces of Gold. Assuming the mad rush won't make a single ounce over a million.
Ah shucks. Now I lost my job because the middle class went away over night and all the corporations collapsed and no I will beg the wealthy Gold Hoarders for food.
Or kill them all and start my own fake money.
Gold can crash but it never been worthless never ever ever ever ever
Depends on the society.
For instance, in Ireland Gold never had value until the Vikings and the Saxons introduced coining, which they picked up from their travels.
Before that it was simply jewelry that represented something. But it was not money. You couldn't buy a cow with it. Hell, a cow was probably considered more valuable!
it explains why some countries use dollars to buy oil....it shows you how some will NOT use dollars and they happen to be the same countries we want to kill....I guess fighting for money.
Yes, I agree 100% in fact I said so a few responses up or something..
I fully support attacking countries to ensure oil stays pegged to the Dollar.
Banks dont stock up on gold? What about the World Bank or IMF? The Fed? or even our own treasury dept. Let me ask you something why does the big banks or governments of the world keep gold if their is no worry about collapse? Thats how you know gold will always have value look who has it all...
The World Bank and the IMF don't exactly operate like a normal bank. However, if even just the IMF dumped their Gold reserves into the markets, Gold would be slashed in half within mins.
And your right, so long as people hoard it, it will have a sense of value. However, only 1% of the world controls it so I don't give a damn about it.
Many nobles have lost their heads because they took what little Gold the peasants had.
The bottom line is this:
You cannot keep the same World economy under Gold Standard. Just not possible. We would see a depression, and subsequently a war of likes never seen before.
BUT .. Like I said.
I support returning to the Gold standard.
Just for different reasons.
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