If the Third Reich fought the Vietnam War

What would it be like if the Third Reich fought the Vietnam War and who would win?, Which equipment and weapons would be used?

This alternative history scenario is set the same time the US served there, Circa 1960-1975. Pre 1960 history may not concern much in this thread but can still be for political movements.

Anyones ideas of this scenario are welcome and are free to post on this thread.

Just a thought, Here is my view of what-if:

1945-1960: Europe is completley occupied but a few resistance groups still occur, Britain/USA/USSR still exist but have gave up fighting WW2, Britain/USA become allies with Germany against the USSR/China/North Korea & Vietnam etc

The Cold War still starts but in a totally different way.

The what-was French Indochina which fell into the hands of communisim with the aid of USSR/China? became North Vietnam, Nazi Germany decide to help South Vietnam(Which may be also aided from Imperial Japan?) from communist uprising

Remember: Concentrate mostly on the Third Reich vs North Vietnam.

[edit on 13-5-2008 by Cutaway]

I would have to say that the Nazi Germany would most likely win. They would level the place with wave after wave of 20+ years more advanced V2s (V5s?), things like ICBMs maybe even some tactical Nuclear weapons. Probably also be repeated Air strikes/ carpet bombing especially from Imperial Japan and Luftwaffe on I-J soil (this is presuming they (The Axis) didn't start scrapping between themselves like the enemies of the Axis started to do).

reply to post by Marshall Ormus


Hmm...

If you recall, the americans absolutley LEVELED Hanoi with B-52's, yet that didn't put a dent in the NVA/VC morale or infrastructure. The US also had tactical nuclear weapons and ICBM's, but didn't use them. It's all about escalation, my friend. Technology hasn't been having a very good track record in the last 50 years, and is almost always beaten by determined, well thought out guerilla attacks these days. I'd throw my money on the Communist Axis, simply because of sheer numbers in a conventional war. In nuclear war, nobody wins.

You may also want to think about startegically supplying the Bundswehr (German Army). The french had massive logistical issues in the Indochine wars in the 1950's. Getting all the kit from Germany (Flying OVER the USSR) would cause a logistical headache for Hitler's succesor. The American had it easy becuase they had the undefended Pacific, not to mention all the little islands they control, like Hawaii, Midway, Guam, Wake, Tinian, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Germany would utterly depend on Japan for help, but Imperial Japan would probably have fallen to the USSR in the late 40's early 50's (Hypothetically speaking). No help there for Germany!

I would have to bet my money on the NVC personally. They lived and grew up in the jungles the German army would be figting in. Sheer numbers doesn't work against the guerilla tactics pretty much ever. Afghanistan,Vietnam, and the Revolutionary War are some examples. And is Hitler still the fuhrer in this scenario? Because that probably wouldn't help much either.

How many Jews are in Vietnam? I had to ask...

I agree that the USa never broke the moral of the ba*tards. Germany would have had the same problem, if not more, than we had. Logistics.

One other thing to remember, Germany has a smaller population than the USA. We had a mandatory draft back then for a standing army. The numbers involved may be more than Germany could even field with no remaining force for any homeland defense.

Great what if idea. Starred and flagged --- for originality!

If the Third Retch had fought the Vietnam War, Germans would all be eating rice, and selling cars to the victors.

And Vietnam would have Interstate Freeways.

I would imagine that the Germans would have fought the war to win. They would have been unencumbered by politics, university protests and human rights activists. They would have went in with heavy bombing and established a fortified peremeter around the country. This would have most likely been followed by poison gas or tactical nukes if necessary aiding the troops on the ground. Troops would most likely drive from the north and west to the south and would structure the push to minimize escape to the mountains. Jungles would have been no problem as German high command would seek to eliminate the enemies advantage of a Guerilla war by rapid and all but total deforestation and flooding the areas with heavier than air gas as simple as CO2 to take care of any tunnel complexes. The survivors would have been rounded up with those resisting or attempting escape shot. The remaining populace would have been enslaved under German military rule and forced to build labor camps. The surrounding countries would be evaluated for further expansion in the region once an enforceable beachhead was established. Afterward the soldiers would have returned to heros' welcomes and the GNP of Germany would soar due to cheap labor and the influx of raw materials from the mineral rich land. Don't get me wrong, I think what they did in WWII to the Jews and others was horrendous, but you have to hand it to them, given access to raw materials and labor along with a populace unified behind the war effort, they would have been unstoppable.

The Germans used heavy-handed tactics against partisans and resistance movements in Europe, and failed badly. There is no reason to believe they would have fared any better elsewhere.
Fighting an insurgency is all about hearts and minds; the British won in Malaya, the Germans would never have won in Vietnam unless they changed their approach completely.

Third Reich did fight the Vietnam war... Majority of the French foreign legion during their indochina campaign 1946-54 were German WW2 veterans from both SS and Wehrmacht.

The United States defeated the Viet Cong during Tet 1968 and by the time of the US withdrawal, the North Vietnamese Army was for all practical purposes defeated. So, in reality the US won the ground war in Vietnam.

What we did not win was the war at home against the criminals who turned our nations streets and campuses into war zones.

The US pulled out our last combat troops in April of 1975. It would be another two years before Saigon finally fell.

Those Americans who wanted the US to "stop the war" and claimed that their hearts bled for the suffering of the Vietnamese people never blinked an eye or expressed so much as a word of regret when the Communists murdered millions in Southeast Asia following the US withdrawal.

I would imagine that if the US were like the Third Reich, war protesters would have been systematically murdered, so things might have turned out differently under those circumstances.

[edit on 2008/5/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Grady you hit the nail right on the head!

hpfsl...americans absolutley LEVELED Hanoi with B-52's...there was no bombing of the north from oct 68 untill dec 72 when linebacker 2 started...In light of the 20,000 tons of bombs that were dropped on the citizens of Hanoi and Haiphong, there were relatively few casualties. Only 1,318 people were killed in Hanoi and 306 in Haiphong, a truly remarkable number.

so how was hanoi "leveled"

the nearest comparison IMHO is the nazi campaign in Yougoslavia

the partisans - tito and the royalists had external support

the germans had some indigenous support - they raised CROAT SS units - but other coarts also fought for the partisans

they attempted to use terror tactics to supress partisan activity - revenge executions etc

so if you think they could win a campaign in indochina - please tell us what they would have done - which was not attempted in Yougoslavia ?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott Those Americans who wanted the US to "stop the war" and claimed that their hearts bled for the suffering of the Vietnamese people never blinked an eye or expressed so much as a word of regret when the Communists murdered millions in Southeast Asia following the US withdrawal. [edit on 2008/5/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Good point, well presented Grady. IMO, they are the same people who have caused American service personnel to die in their thousands fighting 'unjust' wars around the globe, protecting the rights of protesters and their freedom of speech, whilst shackling those who do their duty at the behest of corrupt Whitehouse officialdom.

I would imagine that if the US were like the Third Reich, war protesters would have been systematically murdered, so things might have turned out differently under those circumstances.

That is what cost Germany the war. Well, that and the absurdity of Adolf Hitler - Master Tactician!

As I have said many, many times before, a guerilla campaign can only be won by winning the 'hearts and minds' of the civilian population - thus depriving the insurgent of the recruiting and supply database. Iraq and Afghanistan spring readily to mind.

If the Germans had fought the Viet Nam war, I would think they would have had 'expert' help from Japanese 'advisers' - much like the early stages of the war when the US sent advisers to train the South Vietnamese forces.

The Nazi Reich Security Police, the Gestapo, the SD and the Allemeigne SS
would have had a field day raping, torturing and murdering any and everybody who fought against them and that is where they would have lost it.

V2 rockets and other 'Vengeful' weapons would have been next to useless! Just look at the carpet bombing of the Ho Chi Minh Trail by B-52s.

It did not stop the flow of fighting men and women, their supplies and food for more than a few hours - it still got through.

Jungle fighting is, more often than not, one on one, up close and very personal combat. That the Wehrmact and Waffen-SS would have adapted, there can be little doubt.

nazi germany could definitely win,during the wwII,japanese only sent a small contingent to conquer viet nam,and they did it with ease.and german army was way stronger than japanese army in all aspects.japanese navy was better than germans.

american viet nam war was by no means an all out war,the war was restricted in many ways.it was not a must win war like wwII.so it didnt count much on judging a country's military strength.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by haidian]

[edit on 30-5-2008 by haidian]

I think Germany would do no better than we did meaning the US to fight that kinda war and win we would have to of had at least 10 to 1 in soldier power that was taking into our sea and air force and the US just did not want to face those numbers once MacNamera Let those numbers lose on Johnson they knew then the Jigs was up 500.000 troops was never enough to do the job and they realized way to late

for spelling

[edit on 30-5-2008 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by haidian
nazi germany could definitely win,during the wwII,japanese only sent a small contingent to conquer viet nam,and they did it with ease.and german army was way stronger than japanese army in all aspects.japanese navy was better than germans.

american viet nam war was by no means an all out war,the war was restricted in many ways.it was not a must win war like wwII.so it didnt count much on judging a country's military strength.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by haidian]

[edit on 30-5-2008 by haidian]

where they really stronger than the Germans? no.
I'm sorry but if i had a choice on whether i wanted to fight one of Rommel's boys or Tojo's, i would have gone with the German.

The reason why the Japanese were able to own in the tropics is because their troops had time to acclimate. Also, they weren't fighting against a communist ideal but a french colony.

The German's had a great army, i'll give them that, but if they had a Hitler-like politician at the helm, they'd run in less time than we did.
I'm sticking with the Commies on this one.

We did focus to some extent on winning hearts and minds over there. The war turned conventional after TET, though, and the NVA lost big on the ground. They were decimated, and would've thrown in the towel if not for the propaganda war and their "friends" Red China and the Soviets. Who really won? Vietnamese seem to harbor no ill will toward us Americans these days. In fact, they seem to like us, and the former ARVN's have emerged as Vietnam's best citizens.

You're honestly saying, a victorious Nazi militarisitc superpower would lose a full scale war against Vietnam?

Please!

They wouldn't play politics back at home, there wouldn't be a "no go" zone, there wouldn't be "ethics" when fighting the NVA, and there wouldn't be uncertainties from politicans back home pulling the strings of commanders.

They would do whatever it takes, no matter the cost to win. You're talking about a Government that killed millions of Jewish people in horrendous ways, and fought land battles in Russia that made the Western front look like a picnic.

Germany would win, no doubt.

Originally posted by northwolf
Third Reich did fight the Vietnam war... Majority of the French foreign legion during their indochina campaign 1946-54 were German WW2 veterans from both SS and Wehrmacht.

And they also got their behinds kicked out of Vietnam - a lot worse than we did, even.

The myth of the mighty NAZI supermen is just that, a myth.

Everyone seems to forget that they received one of the worst beat-downs any country in human history has ever seen: their military was utterly annihilated, their cities reduced to rubble.

They failed, not only did they fail, but they failed spectacularly.

reply to post by ShooterSix


as you seem convinced that the nazi ubermen and thier ` total war ` strategy would win in indo china - please explain thier failure in yougoslavia .