When can god forgive?

Originally posted by mrwupy
Learn to think outside the book. You will never truly know the creator of all things as long as you blindly follow those that have brainwashed you.

The "Book" (Bible) is the word of God to a Christian.

God does not need to forgive you for anything, you have never sinned against God and never will. People who want your money and allegiance will tell you otherwise. They are simply exploiting the weakness that is you guilt and shame.

Again, the "Book" says otherwise. I try to follow it but I didn't write it and quite frankly there's a good part of it I still need clarification on. So, if I as a Christian need help with the Bible, imagine how it can be misinterpreted by a nonbeliever.

I have attended several churches that never asked for a dime. Calvary Chapel in South Florida comes to mind, 12,000 people and never once passed a plate. Furthermore the Pastor constantly reminded us that there was no membership and to not assume allegiance to any church. I think you are looking thru the eyes of the media here. Stereotyping Christianity is quite common.

Free the chains on your mind and the chains on your soul will melt away.

I feel no chains and if someone feels chained then they are probably being mentored in the wrong place.

Finally, I can't speak for other Faiths and my opinions are strictly based on Christian belief.

Good analogy but good for argument purposes only.

The Bible, like other religions, teaches us that we are BORN to die. Through no fault of our own, the car has already been dented. But God has made a way of escape in the act of forgiveness and that can occur any time you want it to. I pray for forgiveness every night before bed, knowing that God has heard me and will forgive me.

The analogy part about the good driver going to the most immediate door is also something you've not considered. In 24 hours you would be more easily found and reconciled with than you think. The same thing is true with God and forgiveness. It goes directly to God and the heart of each matter, whether you know you've sinned during the day or not.

Lastly, your analogy places limits and restrictions on God's power that we have no right to or ability to comprehend. Your question was When Can God Forgive? The true answer is any time he wants to and for anything he wants to. Just don't get to thinking you can sin all day and use forgiveness as "fire insurance."

Naturally there are other issues with the analogy, but this is a start.

You're forgetting the meaning of the analogy, you can point out holes in any analogy but it's the message I’m putting across you're still to answer.

Now how does this relate to god - well in life we sin, we know that everyone does something wrong, everyone does something wrong every single day – we’re aware of that. Supposedly god knows this, god watches over us and has some sort of evidence some sort of spiritual recorder that on judgment day he will be able to whip out and prove that we did indeed do the crimes we’re being accused of.

Here's a couple verses from the bible that talk about exactly this topic. I totally forgot the references but google or whatever you need to do to prove to yourself these are in there because they are. (Warning: Might sound like a sermon)

For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Everybody is guilty of sin. Me, you, everybody. I sin daily. Sometimes I do it willingly and sometimes unwillingly. Thing is, I'm guilty. Now how do I atone for the dents I've put in the car?

For God so loved us, that He gave His only son. That whoever believes in Him won't get soaked in gas and lit up but instead have everlasting life with the Father.

Forgiveness is the answer. God's not sitting up there in a cloud with a fistful of lightning bolts ready to strike at the least little thing. He loves his creation. Loves us so much, He gave His son as a living sacrafice for everybody on earth and everybody who will ever be on earth.

When we ask forgiveness for sins, they are erased from the mind of God. He forgets them as if they were never there. He casts them far away as the east is from the west

If somebody dents my car, and they ask for my forgiveness, I forgive em...here's the kicker...but I still remember that they dented my car even though we're square now BUT God doesn't remember. Gone from His mind as if they were never there. Nothing. Wiped clean. Even if somebody doesn't ask me for forgiveness, I'm still going to forgive them. God's the same way. If God knows you as His own, He'll forgive you even if you don't remember what sins you've committed to ask forgiveness for. That's why Christians say you've been saved or covered with the blood of Christ...why he died for your sins.

Hope that answers your question for you.

Originally posted by andre18
You're forgetting the meaning of the analogy, you can point out holes in any analogy but it's the message I’m putting across you're still to answer.

I wasn't meaning to punch holes in the scenario, but I don't think it entirely fits our situation. It has pieces missing or assumed. It's like putting God into a binary box saying that God will stand their cross-armed and say "Repent or die, you have 1 sec...oops! Time is up, burn!" and it's not like that at all . If you'd like to make God seem unapproachable, vindictive, unjust and sadistic, you certainly have the right to do so. I doubt He'll send down a lighting bolt to strike you for suggesting that He is (the fact that he hasn't already suggests that he isn't vindictive, unjust, sadistic, etc.). God as I know has been quite flexible in working with us, but that does not mean He has infinite patience. The flood happened one raindrop at a time both literally and allegorically.


[edit on 15-5-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by Mekanik


When quoting scripture it's a good idea to reference book, chapter and verse and also use the (quote box (board rule). That way people can have a way to look it up.

Great post by the way!

reply to post by jbondo


I know I know. It was late and I was too lazy to look them up. But here they are now...

-Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

-John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him, shouldn't perish but have eternal life.

-Psalm 103:12: As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Here is a good site that explains this whole forgiveness thing better than I can.

reply to post by andre18
First of all, thank you for the question/analogy. It's very well worded and expressed and without some explanation makes a lot of sense. Let me also say that I am simply a believing Christian, not some fancy evangelist with a theological degree on my wall. These are my words, not God's, and my explanation only.

God doesn't send people to hell on Judgment Day. That's what a lot of preachers have taught over the years, I know, but it isn't what's in the Bible. On Judgment Day, God will be the judge; The Devil (enemy in the original Hebrew) will be the prosecutor, and you will be defendant and jury. You will be forced to judge yourself. God will simply allow it, not cause it.

This is one of the things that struck me the most when I began researching the original scriptures. Where the various English translations appear to say that God causes such and such, in reality the original scriptures say He will allow such and such.

I also believe that, since there is only one true God, He is probably at the center of every religious belief, save those who choose to worship the 'enemy'. The Muslims call Him Allah. The Jews call him Yahweh, I Am, Jehovah. The Christians of today oftentimes just call Him God. The American Indians called Him The Great Spirit. And I'm sure there are many others. Whatever the name, He can still hear a fervent plea for forgiveness.

In your analogy, you have to include that you, as the judge, have access to a bug in my head. If I do not show remorse, true remorse, and do not make a sincere effort to find you, then yes, I am guilty when that 24 hours is up. But if I make a sincere effort to find you, then you would know about it and be able to accept that as an apology. Since God (in the Judeo-Christian belief) is a loving God, then you, in your analogy, would also be out looking for me to tell me whose car it was and give me that opportunity to apologize. Then, in your analogy, your place would be not to set me on fire, but to officiate over my trial where the DA ('enemy') is trying to set me on fire for not apologizing.

One more thing: I believe that God (based on his prior decisions, not his ability) can only do for man what man is willing to do for God. It's not literally Biblical (that I have found), but it does make sense to me. That means that, again in your analogy, you as judge would be less likely to forgive me for denting your car if you found out that I was unwilling to forgive others for denting mine.

Hope this makes sense to you.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
God doesn't send people to hell on Judgment Day. That's what a lot of preachers have taught over the years, I know, but it isn't what's in the Bible. On Judgment Day, God will be the judge; The Devil (enemy in the original Hebrew) will be the prosecutor, and you will be defendant and jury. You will be forced to judge yourself. God will simply allow it, not cause it.

God Judges:

"Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?" -Job 21:22

"Then men will say, "Surely the righteous still are rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the earth." - Psalm 58:11

"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Cast into the eternal fire:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:12-15

I didn't write the book of life.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

The capitalization of "the One" referring to God here and elsewhere as well.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." - Matthew 7:19

Notice it does not say "every tree will cut itself down and throw itself...". Other references of being thrown are here in Matthew 18:8 and 18:9.

[edit on 15-5-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


You are right but I also think it's important to point out certain aspects so as not to confuse.

We are in a time of Grace and to further point out, God does not take people. Often when people die it is characterized as God taking them. Judgment is not something that is happening, hence Grace.

I know you know this but I thought it a good idea to clarify for others.

reply to post by saint4God
God judges, in that He presides over the principle that He brought into the world since its foundations: a principle that says each will reap according to what he sows. God does not (IMHO) stand and condemn.

Isaiah 54:9 says

There is a subtle difference here, but one that I found very important. Yes, we will be judged (those who do not follow in the path blazed by Jesus), and yes, there is eternal torment for those who do not measure up to God's standards, but God has promised that since Jesus, He would not be angry with us, nor would he retaliate to us. He will, however, leave that to ourselves, under the laws of the universe He created.

It is a difference in interpretation, but a minor one. The larger issue in this thread, as I understand it, is that God loves us all, regardless, and wishes for us to be happy. From 2Peter 3:9

It is we who decide our path. It is God who allows us that decision. In a courtroom, it is the jury who determines guilt. It is the judge who determines the rules and sees that the verdict is honored.

edit to add: nor did I write the Book of Life, but I have a friend and defender who knows the fellow who did write it very well.

TheRedneck


[edit on 15-5-2008 by TheRedneck]

Both very interesting points j and Red, I appreciate the viewpoints you've brought up and it has given me more to consider. Since in the past I never had a problem with the idea, I suppose I hadn't fully explored the width and depth of the context. I do think that when we realize the full impact of what we've done here on earth, we will certainly not feel worthy of any reward. Nicely done


[edit on 15-5-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God
Thank you, saint, and as always it has been a pleasure to compare notes with you. Perhaps it is that the mere human mind is too small to contemplate all aspects of God, so that we only understand by talking with others; perhaps not. I only know that I learn from you as well.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Mekanik


Actually, no... that doesn't answer the question.

It doesn't explain why God refuses to forgive anyone who doesn't believe a specific version of a specific story... or why he needed to kill his kid before he could convince himself to forgive anyone at all... or finally why he requires that you believe the story before you die, and refuses to forgive anyone after they're dead.

Originally posted by andre18
Actually, no... that doesn't answer the question.

Let's give it another go.

Originally posted by andre18
It doesn't explain why God refuses to forgive anyone who doesn't believe a specific version of a specific story...

Simply put: Because He told us. If your parents tell you to look both ways before crossing the interstate highway and you choose to ignore them then surely you're going to get hit. If we don't listen to God here, why would we listen to Him in His own house?

Anticipatory response to not knowing what to believe 'which version is correct': Ask Him

Originally posted by andre18
or why he needed to kill his kid before he could convince himself to forgive anyone at all...

He didn't need to. He chose to to demonstrate what He's willing to give up to forgive those who trust Him. What are we willing to give up?

Originally posted by andre18
or finally why he requires that you believe the story before you die, and refuses to forgive anyone after they're dead.

Why would someone's mind change?

reply to post by saint4God


What about the people who have not been told, the people in remote places that never heard of God or Jesus?

reply to post by saint4God


Good points I was thinking the same things until I got to your post S4G.

Andre the topic of your thread is the God of the Bible... so it is absurd for you to say you do not know who to ask forgiveness of. You do know. Now just go do it.

Originally posted by jhill76
What about the people who have not been told, the people in remote places that never heard of God or Jesus?

The same scripture applies:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." - Revelaton 20:12

The Bible suggests that deep down we know what's right and wrong. That deep down we either accept or reject the good and Creator of the universe. Jesus' name when he walked most likely wasn't pronounced "Jesus" in English and we know it wasn't how it was written...but we still know who he is.

Simply put: Because He told us. If your parents tell you to look both ways before crossing the interstate highway and you choose to ignore them then surely you're going to get hit.

When your parents tell you to look both ways before crossing the street, it's because they are aware of the dangers posed by cars on the street. They want you to look both ways so you can be aware of the dangers. Your parents are not the ones placing the dangers there or hitting you with the car if you fail to do as you're told.

God on the other hand is a different story. If the Bible God exists, then he refuses to forgive anyone who doesn't believe a specific story - just because he can. There is no inherent danger which is avoided by believing that God impregnated a woman with himself in order to offer himself as a human sacrifice to himself. It's simply a story (and a strange one at that). And if you fail to believe a specific version of this story, then HE is the one who will send you to be tortured forever in a Hell HE created especially for that purpose.

Anticipatory response to not knowing what to believe 'which version is correct': Ask Him

That's they same thing Muslims tell me. They believe God has shown them that their religion is true... but you disagree. You believe God has shown you that your religion is true, they would disagree. Asking isn't enough - because clearly people receive responses which are false.

He didn't need to. He chose to to demonstrate what He's willing to give up to forgive those who trust Him. What are we willing to give up?

Whether you believe Jesus was God, or was God's son - if you're saying he needlessly sent an innocent person to die, then your God is a monster. Killing Jesus wasn't an example of giving up anything... it was causing unnecessary suffering

Originally posted by jhill76
What about the people who have not been told, the people in remote places that never heard of God or Jesus?

Paul talks about the 'unknowing gentiles' of the day:
"since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" - Romans 2:15

It seems to say above that deep down they have daily thoughts and make daily choices siding with good or evil. The problem is this is the hard road, as we typically choose the wrong side.

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done." - Revelation 20:13

God is fair. He would not cheat His creation merely because they don't have a phone line hooked up. The question becomes, can we trust that He will judge righteously?