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When can god forgive?

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posted on May, 13 2008 @ 07:44 AM
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Let’s imagine I’m sitting at home doing whatever and I look out the window I watch you hit my car, luckily I had my camera running and I caught you on video. Now let’s also imagine that I decided that I’m going to give you 24 hours to specifically ask me for forgiveness and if you don’t I’m going to light you on fire and burn you to death. Now here’s the catch you don’t know whose car it is, you know you’ve done something wrong you know you’ve dented the car and you go around to everybody you think owns the car and you ask them to forgive you, you apologize but you don’t make it to me.

The 24 hours comes and goes, finally I confront you I call you out and I tell you its judgment day. I show you the video and I say look this is you hit my car you damaged it you deserve to die. At this point you apologize saying I’m sorry I’m sorry, I didn’t realize it was your car I’m so sorry, I will do anything I can to make it right. Where by I tell you, you had 24 hours to make it right and you failed to do so within that time frame and now your time is up - I douse you in gasoline and light you on fire and watch you burn.

Now how does this relate to god - well in life we sin, we know that everyone does something wrong, everyone does something wrong every single day – we’re aware of that. Supposedly god knows this, god watches over us and has some sort of evidence some sort of spiritual recorder that on judgment day he will be able to whip out and prove that we did indeed do the crimes we’re being accused of.

We only have a specified amount of time to ask for forgiveness for these crimes. If we wait until we’re dead and ask forgiveness from god on judgment day it will be too late. Once you’re actually accused of the crimes and you ask for forgiveness by then there’s nothing god can do, at that point the all powerful creator of the world is powerless to help you. So you must request forgiveness from god in your life time, by the time god confronts you about the sins or about the wrongs you have committed it’s too late you’re already going to be judged, the sentence had already been decided.

In my analogy you had 24 hours, in the bible's analogy you have one life time, once the 24 four hours is up or when your life time is up it's judgment day. In my story I was the judge and lighted you on fire for denting my car, according to the bible god is the judge and he will burn you for ever for simply not believing that he exists - or for any other tiny little thing you may have done wrong during how ever long you happen to live. Fact is, in both scenarios once you’re actually confronted by the person who could pass judgment it was too late, if you die without believing in god he’s already decided that you don’t deserve happiness and you’re going to be burnt for ever.

And the ironic part is the analogy doesn’t need to be an analogy, you could hit my car tomorrow, die within 24 hours and Jesus and god can sentence you to hell because you hit the car and drove away and you didn’t ask them for forgiveness before you died. And so my question is why is god powerless to forgive you after you’re dead?

[edit on 13-5-2008 by andre18]




posted on May, 13 2008 @ 08:19 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 


First of all, I'm posting as a member and not a mod.

You ask some very good questions But you're making some huge assumptions about scripture. And I'll make a huge assumption that you're getting this info from somewhere other than the Bible. Something you've been told or read somewhere other than the Bible.

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that says God is powerless to forgive you after you're dead? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that says God will burn you forever for not believing he exists, or any other reason for that matter?

Don't take my word, or anyone else's word for it. You've got to read and study and contemplate it for yourself. And you don't HAVE to believe anything. Things will happen as they happen and we'll all end up in the same place. Some will just find the going a bit more >ahem< rigorous than others.

The thing is, I can't tell you what's correct; you have to see it for yourself. And you're either motivated (called) to do that, or not. Either way, ultimately it'll all work itself out. I'm pretty sure.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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As a decent human being I would imagine that as soon as you've done something "wrong" you're immediately supposed to feel bad about it and then address the situation by making the right decisions and making ammends.

Its not always about protecting one's behind - but about doing the right thing. I personally believe that a higher power/God whoever - would take that into account.

That is one of the most important lessons I give my children - having them hold themselves accountable for their actions and rectify situations they've created.

It takes a lot longer to forgive someone when they try to hide from their wrong actions, make excuses and not take responsibility until they've been "found out".

Sometimes it's "Too Little Too Late Buddy!" in life! Why should it be any different after death and on your "judgement day" (if one exists).



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 08:45 AM
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Whew, slightly long winded analogy. I think you are kinda missing the point by using an automobile in your analogy because of the fact it is a material thing. Cars are something you can't take with you. We are suppose to love our fellow Man and use material things, not the other way around.

I think the key is sincerity because God knows if you are sincere or not when you ask for forgiveness.

I've had similar discussions on the same topic using instead Hitler as an example, asking the question if he asked for forgiveness as he took his last breath, would he go to heaven?

The debate can get pretty heated if anyone answers yes.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:09 AM
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I don't buy it. Punishment is a political act... an attempt at control and manipulation of someone's behavior.


God needs no such tools.


I also have a tremendous problem with a god that can punish a person for all eternity for a crime that has a limit. Finite acts that deserve infinite punishment? I don't buy that either.


God as an anthropomorphized being doesn't exist. He/it was created as a political figure in order to affect changes in society by people who want to see the masses behave in a certain way.


God is love. Everything else is illusion. "The Devil" is our confusion, lack of love, lack of forgiveness, lack of compassion or empathy, and desire for control and objects of the material world. All of it is a distraction from truth. We suffer when we can't forgive. We suffer most when we can't forgive ourselves.




[edit on 13-5-2008 by ianr5741]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by ianr5741
 


Wow, so much hate, anger and resentment.
What happened to you that made you this way?
Why are you angry with God?



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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Yes I often wonder why god punishes the very creatures he created. He created us so does he have to punish us.?

In order to get to heaven we have to base our lives on faith. Isn't that wierd? We as humans (well the ones who think for themselvesand don't blindly follow) naturally want proof or want to be able to see something before we believe it. So just why exactly does this god want us to follow him based completely on faith? But then punish us for not believing in him.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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I wouldn't press my luck on this issue. To address the idea of committing a sin and then dying immediately after being a loophole of not having a chance to ask forgiveness, You are given plenty of opportunity while alive to be saved. Once you are saved you are still going to make mistakes and God knows what is in your heart already, even when you make that last error. Being saved doesn't stop you from being a sinner it merely forgives and covers your imperfection. That's why Jesus went to the cross, he already paid the price for you.


It would be nice if there were an opportunity to change your mind in hell, but the Bible gives no indication that this will be possible. Hebrews 9:27 says we are all "destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."

Another passage that seems to shut the door to a "second chance" is a parable Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31. The parable was about a rich man who died and went to hell. In his agony, the rich man looked up to heaven and cried out for mercy. In response to his cries, the man was told a chasm separated heaven and hell--a chasm that could never be crossed.

As hard as it is to hear, eternal separation from God is the punishment for people who don't accept Christ as Lord and Savior. But please understand that it's not God's desire for anyone to spend eternity in hell. As it says in 2 Peter 3:9, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

So my encouragement to you is to concentrate on the present. I can't tell you what will happen between death and judgment, but I can tell you that God desires for each one of us to experience his love and grace right here, right now.


Reference from: www.accessmylibrary.com...



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 10:09 AM
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OP, your making a lot of assumptions there. it's a how many angels on a pin-head question. who could possibly know, besides god, if there is a time limit on forgiveness.
what do you think?



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by jbondo
 

the OS you've given bases their argument on luke16:19-31. it is quite a shakey iterpitation of the passage in my view.

it should be noted here that a)it says redemption can be found through moses, not christ, b) the beggar never asked forgiveness, he was given a place in heaven because of the hardship he suffered, not the good life he lived and c) the rich man didn't ask for redemption, he asked for a kindness he would not give in life.

in context, this is a reply to the scoffing of the pharisees, and the serving two masters passage that preceeds it leads me to believe that this passage relates to the idea of "judge not lest ye be judged", the lesson being that the lack of compassion shown by the rich man in life was returned to him in death. sin isn't mentioned and to insert the idea of sin into the story is to obscure an important message. if sin was the lesson of the parrable surely jesus might have mentioned sin, breaking the law of moses or any such. he doesn't with-in the story. he does however tell the deciples to always forgive their brothers when it is asked of them.

this leads me to believe that forgiveness of sins after death hinges upon your forgiveness of others in life rather than your repentance in life.

thanks for pointing out the passage.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that says God will burn you forever for not believing he exists, or any other reason for that matter?


I suppose I could bring up a verse or two but you'd probably dismiss them as 'out of context.' The fact is, what is written is what is written, if you want to put your own personal spin on verse after verse then I guess you just don't want to accept what's there in plain sight.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



[edit on 14-5-2008 by andre18]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro
reply to post by ianr5741
 


Wow, so much hate, anger and resentment.
What happened to you that made you this way?
Why are you angry with God?

What makes you assume he believes in 'god'? How can you be angry at something that does not exist?
Why does every religious nut on ATS use 'Conspiracy In Religion' as a soapbox for their own religious views? I don't mean you - it's a small. but vociferous group of extremists really...

I feel like a broken record when I come to these threads - but this particular forum is by far the most abused on ATS.

J.

[edit on 13-5-2008 by jimbo999]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:17 PM
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Learn to think outside the book. You will never truly know the creator of all things as long as you blindly follow those that have brainwashed you.

God does not need to forgive you for anything, you have never sinned against God and never will. People who want your money and allegiance will tell you otherwise. They are simply exploiting the weakness that is you guilt and shame.

When you do something that you know is wrong, you feel bad about it. Thats natural. It's not a sin against God though.

Free the chains on your mind and the chains on your soul will melt away.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy
Learn to think outside the book. You will never truly know the creator of all things as long as you blindly follow those that have brainwashed you.

God does not need to forgive you for anything, you have never sinned against God and never will. People who want your money and allegiance will tell you otherwise. They are simply exploiting the weakness that is you guilt and shame.

When you do something that you know is wrong, you feel bad about it. Thats natural. It's not a sin against God though.

Free the chains on your mind and the chains on your soul will melt away.


Very well said my friend


It's good to see some people here who are able to think for themselves It can feel very strange around here at times otherwise....

J.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by andre18
 



I actually thought you were going in a different direction when I read


Now here’s the catch you don’t know whose car it is, you know you’ve done something wrong you know you’ve dented the car and you go around to everybody you think owns the car and you ask them to forgive you, you apologize but you don’t make it to me.


I see the possibility of searching for God but do we find the right one? If I for example practice Hindu when Christianity is coorect will God punish me for picking the 'wrong car owner' even though I tried to do the right thing?

I cannot offer an answer at this point but its is worth asking.


[edit on 13/5/2008 by VIKINGANT]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by andre18
 

First of all, why is this subject in this forum? Does it not fit into the faith, spirituality and religion forum? Just questioning!


on judgment day he will be able to whip out and prove that we did indeed do the crimes we’re being accused of.


Do you really believe this?

Do you really buy into this religious dogma? I agree with mrwupy; this is religion talking, not God. Develop a relationship with God, not the Bible, nor religious mankind. We hear over and over the fear and trembling that you all present to us. It is sad because it is not an accurate description of God.

I gave up that religious God years ago.

Can we imagine for one moment that God maybe has better things to do, than to hold everyone accountable for every sin? That in itself is such a display of arrogance on mans part, if we believe that, and teach it. If our conscience bothers us...that is God working through us!

With every choice there is a consequence. Usually, we shame ourselves enough to pacify any Godly questioning or judgment. Those that don't - suffer regardless.

Are we truly that important? Einstein and I have similar views on God and his response towards man. www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy
When you do something that you know is wrong, you feel bad about it. Thats natural. It's not a sin against God though.


It's not really a sin against God, but why would you feel bad about doing something wrong in the first place?
Seems like that is nothing more than the Golden Rule in its simplest form trying to get out.
You should listen to it more often.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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Do you really buy into this religious dogma?


No, but this topic is to those who do "buy into this religious dogma."
To those who respond claiming that's not what we (as Christians) believe in - I find it difficult to see how you can have any other view then what the bible teaches....If you're going to support the bible at all, then you're going to have to support every verse and not just the ones you feel content with.

This topic is based in the beliefs of the bible, if you're not going to defend the bible then don't defend Christian values because you can't do one or the other. Christianity is based in the teachings of bible - to have Christian values but not to accept the bible makes no sense.....



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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If you're going to support the bible at all, then you're going to have to support every verse and not just the ones you feel content with.


As with all discussions with Christians, the verses are interpreted the way each religion chooses to view them.

I am not Christian nor am I religious. I am spiritual - however. Spirituality requires questioning everything. Since you put this topic in the Conspiracies in Religions Forum, you will receive challenges to religious faiths, and their interpretations.

I believe in the Bible but perhaps not in the ways you may think. I believe that the Bible was created as part of a great conspiracy:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

It is not that I don't believe that the Bible was divinely written, but that I have come to understand that it was written by more than one God! It is my belief that the Bible was written to mislead the masses - especially the religious masses.

ATS is a perfect example to show that this is a strong possibility. For none of you can agree on Biblical verses, and many discussions get heated as a result. You all claim to have the "truth" and a better understanding of scripture - yet some of you, if not all, cannot be right. So what 'is' the truth?

Proof is in the pudding! Just read the posts! Do they produce positive results or negative? ....There is your answer! Religion cannot, and does not work!

But...God could, and would, if he were sought!



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by andre18
Let’s imagine I’m sitting at home doing whatever and I look out the window I watch you hit my car, luckily I had my camera running and I caught you on video...

Now here’s the catch you don’t know whose car it is,


But I'm right outside of their home. It makes sense if I hit a car in front of someone's home, that the owner of the car is inside that home.


Originally posted by andre18
you know you’ve done something wrong


Bingo. Yet, in this scenario my bad decision was to drive off. A lot of people at least leave a note with a phone number.


Originally posted by andre18
you know you’ve dented the car and you go around to everybody you think owns the car and you ask them to forgive you, you apologize but you don’t make it to me.


This would do no good, you're right. Random-apologizing doesn't make sense. I was at the home before, I can't go there again? This analogy would fit better if I were inside that home and committed a similar act.

Naturally there are other issues with the analogy, but this is a start.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by saint4God]



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