The "Un-Salvation" Message?..(truth in the quest to be saved)..

In these "last days", i believe i have uncovered yet another very deceptive message being spread to the masses.

Not zitgiest (sp?), (though ive not had the interest to watch). Not the now rampent suggestions of the "pagan/mystical" origins of the Bible. Not that God "is a meenie" or that Jesus somehow wasn't devine. After all, "these" claims have been around for quite some time, and are quite easy for the Christian of understanding and knowlege to dispute.

Unfortunately the deception i am about to reference comes from the church itself, or most of them at very least. Which, with millions upon millions being taught this, and from with-in the church, causes this to be much more difficult, or unlikely, to be accepted or brought to light.
This is a war ladies and gents., and what better place to attack/mislead, than the church itself, how-ever intentional, or "un".

I have only recently had this explained to me, while watching an early Sunday morning ministry entitled "Christian Viewpoint". John Butler Book, (lol, a fitting name), an older and hardcore fundamentalist.

"Repent and be Baptized", (fully submersed), "For The Remission of Sins", as proclaimed by Jesus Himself, in the book of Acts.

In perspective, a proclaimation made "after" His death and resurrection. Not while He was hanging on the cross talking to the thief, or anytime in history before.

...""And This Statement Was Made In Reference To What One Must Do To Be Saved""...

I have poised this question to many a minister, 99.99% of them simply not in agreement with this fact mentioned above. Then offering their many views, opinions, scriptures, reasons, etc etc etc as to why it just is'nt so, (for salvation).
Well then "Why is this command given??!!",,i ask...

I tell you why, because it means what it says.

The story isn't quite as "basic" as you may believe, or been taught, i gaurantee..And i am "nottt" attempting to pull the wool over your eyes..

...as anyone should be aware, truth is generally the first casualty of war.
In this case, the truth of what one must do truely to be saved (?)..

matt1618.freeyellow.com...
The link to the video on this topic, well, i can no longer find. However, the .com though requiring some reading, should answer any questions to the claim i am suggesting. "That water baptism, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, is commanded for eternal salvation".

I am familiar with all of the reasons given that this claim is false. I ask that you read the link above, "then" offer views why "it" is not the truth.

My personal goal, only the quest for "truth", and not the quest of what is most "popular". No matter how "popular" the version may be..and after reviewing this perspective of salvation, am leaning strongly towards, and feel it is something extremely important that every soul seeking salvation need at very least, consider..

sincerely,
rs.

("Edit"),,ps., in the explanation given, there are a few references to "Catholisizm". I for one disregard those references, and simply adhere to the scriptures given as "they" explain the message. (Besides, from what i understand, the Catholic ritual is the "sprinkling" of water, rather than full submersion. Full submersion, (as in burial), being the "correct" method, as i gather).

[edit on 13-5-2008 by dirtusbagious]

reply to post by dirtusbagious


No takers on this one i guess, even though this could provide a breakthrough to cracking one of the greatest deceptions of all time.

..."Your Salvation"...(and everyone you know)..

Edit:...was to add the "e" to the word "provide"..(interesting in that this message has to do with something that is being left out)..

[edit on 17-5-2008 by dirtusbagious]

reply to post by dirtusbagious


I mean no offense with what I am about to say but I had a hard time understanding what point you were trying to make because much of the Original Post seemed to be rambling. Hopefully I was able to correctly make out what you were trying to say which seems to boil down to:

It is a conspiracy for people to believe their salvation or an aspect of their salvation depends on being baptized.

Please correct me if I misunderstood. Baptism as an essential part of salvation is hotly disputed. In my opinion, baptism is similar to communion in that it is symbolic spiritually but not a requirement of salvation. In other words, you are making a public declaration of your faith and affirming your relationship and commitment to Christ. Jesus Himself was baptized although He obviously didn't need it to achieve salvation. He did it at the beginning of His ministry. Likewise, many Christians are baptized once they accept Jesus to show their commitment to their death to sin and rebirth into eternal life.

Many Christians may disagree with me but that is how I see it and I look forward to seeing scriptural support from those who believe I am wrong. I am a grace-through-faith Christian and believe that sincere faith in Jesus is all that is necessary. When the apostles, who were used to the stringent rules of the Jewish Law, asked Jesus what they needed to be saved they expected to be told a list of 'rules.' However, Jesus' only reply to them was to believe in the one who was sent (Him). That's the way I see it.

Communion, baptism, tithing, church attendance, doing good works, and being a 'good person' should be byproducts of our salvation although they do not save us. I can't imagine how anything would need to be added to the Son of God dying for us in order for us to be saved. Like Jesus said at the cross, 'It is finished.' Some translate that in Greek as 'Paid in Full.' He paid the debt- He did not finance it by making us pay Him back in monthly installments of communion, baptism, and church attendance.

No one will stand up for the truth eh?

The entire false Christian religion is built on the passages of John that were altered. 3:15 and the ones before and after. The church changed the commentary of John after the Masters words to mean they were his when they were a commentary by john.

Anyone that believes they would be saved as described and altered has a serious character flaw or is flat out lazy. To believe someone else will take the weight of the wrongs on your soul is not what the master taught. It is no different that letting satan give you whatever you want for free.

There is nothing in heaven or on earth that is free and that master taught that to achieve the position in heaven you must alter yourself to be a new creature. That is hard work, and the lazy slothful public would rather put a dollar in the tray and kid themselves into being covered.

I challenge anyone to find an original manuscript of John, then compare the translations from greek and aramaic.


You have been lied to by the modern church. That is why illumination is called the Great Work. It is a monumental lifetime achievement.

Do the research. Do not parrot what you are told.

Believe in faith with works. Faith without works is dead. Believe in the message was the original translation. Jesus said to follow me. He never said to believe in me. The text has been altered for evil purposes and control.

It can be no clearer then this.

Best to all, that peer behind the veil do the research and know the truth.

[edit on 17-5-2008 by Illahee]

Originally posted by Illahee
The text has been altered for evil purposes and control.

Interesting thoughts. I'm not sure how salvation through grace could be considered controlling, though. It's actually very liberating because your salvation is in His hands- not your church's or dependent on works or other people.

However, as you said, some unfortunately take this as a get-out-of-jail-free card, so to speak, and believe they can be complacent or lukewarm. Jesus did say if we love Him we will obey His commandments. I'm not sure how sincere someone would be if they were a 'Sunday morning Christian' because if you truly are His and you love Him, then He would be your 'first love.' Not sin.

It also appears you are leading us into the debate of the OSAS doctrine (Once Saved Always Saved). That is a whole other ball game. This thread is talking about what it takes to originally be saved (I think) while you are referring to what it takes to keep our salvation.

[edit on 5/17/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD

I mean no offense with what I am about to say but I had a hard time understanding what point you were trying to make because much of the Original Post seemed to be rambling.

"hi" Ashley,

No offense taken, lol. No matter how conciously I try not to ramble, I find I still do. It makes sense to me, however I must realise that in trying to convey a thought to someone eles I need to be, well, more precise. (ramble ramble)...

The gest of what I am attempting to get at is, i suppose,,,No "man" is infallable, even the "very elect" can be deceived (as scripture explains), and that there is a very real spiritual war taking place.

And finally, my utmost goal is to find the truth, in regards to, well, "Thee Truth".

"Baptism".....
Ask a priest,,he'll say "sprinkle a little holy water"..
Ask a pasture,,you'll most often (not always) get the answer you seem to imply, (as that is what we have all, or most, been taught).
Ask someone thier "opinion", and lord knows the many varying responses you'll receive...

But, What does the "Bible" really have to say??? Say a little sinners prayer?? Believe in the Lord??? (note, He Himself says to "Be Baptised").

This is'nt just a minor topic, or talking of "the pretty butterflies". This is in reference to "Eternal Salvation". Sooo, what better topic for Satan to decieve...

In my view, this is a most crucial subject that you really don't want to rely on "somebodies opinion". No matter what.

The thief on the cross? Jesus had not yet risen, therefore he was not under the requirement of baptism, as from what I understand, since Jesus had not yet risen from the grave...(note: Had Jesus not risen from death, His significance would most likely be little more than a mere mortal man)(though still quite the magician??).

simply,,,I do hope you at least read the link I have provided. Not that "it" is the sole authority on this subject, but one that could easily be located, (to post).

It explains, in depth, scriptuire by scripture, with no hanky panky hocus pocus, there is much more to water baptism than has been taught to the millions/billions who think a simple prayer is what the Bible really teaches..

I am not over-dramatising that from what I gather, leaving out
..."Water Baptism in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost"..is perhaps a most masterfull deception at the hands of those that wish to deceive you, no matter how good your intentions may be. Or even how good their "intentions" may be.

What is "really" written? please read the link provided, and then decide...
rs.

Originally posted by dirtusbagious
No offense taken, lol. No matter how conciously I try not to ramble, I find I still do. It makes sense to me, however I must realise that in trying to convey a thought to someone eles I need to be, well, more precise. (ramble ramble)...

Thank you so much for understanding and not being offended. And it's ok- I am a rambler, too. Can't get to the point to save my life. We can be ATS ramblers together.

The gest of what I am attempting to get at is, i suppose,,,No "man" is infallable, even the "very elect" can be deceived (as scripture explains), and that there is a very real spiritual war taking place.

I completely agree. None of us are perfect or infallible which is why we need a savior. We're also in agreement about a spiritual war taking place.

This is'nt just a minor topic, or talking of "the pretty butterflies". This is in reference to "Eternal Salvation". Sooo, what better topic for Satan to decieve...

Very true. Being a Christian is not going through the motions of good works and/ore rituals. It is an acceptance of what Christ did for us. Then through Him we transform into new creatures. I have been baptized but it was done in private and it was something I wanted to do for symbolic purposes. Not because I believed I had to earn the gift He already gave to me.

Good thread. I don't have anymore to really say but I will be keeping up with it.

reply to post by AshleyD

And it's ok- I am a rambler, too. Can't get to the point to save my life. We can be ATS ramblers together.

it's good to be amongst friends, lol...

I have been baptized but it was done in private and it was something I wanted to do for symbolic purposes. Not because I believed I had to earn the gift He already gave to me.

This paragraph alone sums it up ohhh so well...

The third paragraph of my original post points out that because this teaching, (as you confimed in the quoted paragraph above), is so prevalent, so widespread, and coming from the church itself, well, there really is little chance that many will imagine the fact that, "if possible, even the very elect will be deceived".

I support the "true" Bible believing church, and it's teachings, however not to the extent that i will not "search the scriptures".

There is so much b.s. out there these days that it is understandable that someone with something legitimate to contribute is easily cast aside.

I'm guessing you have'nt read the link I provided (?).

I do claim that I have pretty keen discernment. And when i recently heard this "Water Baptism", and began to research that it is much much more than just a symbolic gesture, i found it made sense, and felt i must pass it along to allow others to at least consider .

I'm still not 100%, and i proceed with caution as well. But i find i very well may have stumbled upon a very profound truth, that bears much more than just a passing glance.

I hope you will read the documented link..

ps., i too have a post titled "The Seduction of Eve" i think is still found on page one of this catagory. In reference to what "really" took place on that dreadfull day so long ago in the garden. Trust me, it too is backed with sound scripture, you will be at very least perplexed, if not very well shocked. Yet walk away with a much clearer, sensable perspective, of why God was literally crushed by what took place.

a bonafied journey into that "truth" is sooo much more provocative, stranger, and much more interesting than fiction.

with the added benefit that, "it finally makes sense"..

sincerely,
rs.