Open carry in PA

I'm glad someone here made it a point to do some research.

Open, and concealed carry laws differ from COUNTY to COUNTY, not just state to state. So anyone expressing their rights need to be vastly informed and educated as to just what is and is not permissible in their state at the very least.

I can drive 10 miles from my hometown and be put in jail for something I could sue the police department for in my hometown.

I was the individual arrested. I open carry everywhere in PA and this was my first negative experience with law enforcement.

As you can imagine, the news reports are generally misleading and downplay the event. I am mentioned as having been "detained" (I was arrested), but released for "refusing to cooperate" with police.

What is not mentioned is that their idea of "cooperation" included telling my wife (unlawfully) to cease recording the event. At which time I decided I would not comply with (unlawful) demand for government issued ID (drivers license).

Original report on the board from which our group organizes:
www.pafoa.org... st298674

My first post in response to the the incident:
www.pafoa.org... st298916

Best, Rich
Founder: paopencarry.org

Originally posted by Area_X
Open, and concealed carry laws differ from COUNTY to COUNTY,...[snip]

No. Not the case in PA. We benefit from full preemption per 18PACS§6120


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
§ 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition.
(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may
in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession,
transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition
components when carried or transported for purposes not
prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Can you tell me that you honestly weren't just trying to give the police a hard time?

Just what were you thinking when they (the police) entered the restaurant?

Did you already have it in your mind to resist them (not using the term resisting arrest) in your own defiant way?

Do you think if you would have been a little more cooperative that things wouldn't have gone so far?

In other words, was this in any way a "chip on shoulder" situation?

With no offense intended toward you, I just honestly would like to know.

Originally posted by jbondo

Can you tell me that you honestly weren't just trying to give the police a hard time?

I was trying to eat dinner.

Originally posted by jbondoJust what were you thinking when they (the police) entered the restaurant?

hat it was no big deal. I have encountered LEO while OC before. Never had a problem.

T

Originally posted by jbondoDid you already have it in your mind to resist them (not using the term resisting arrest) in your own defiant way?

No. I know and deal with a lot of LEO. I had no idea this would hapen the way it did.

T

Originally posted by jbondoDo you think if you would have been a little more cooperative that things wouldn't have gone so far?

I can't comment on that beyond what I mentioned my original reply.

Originally posted by jbondoIn other words, was this in any way a "chip on shoulder" situation?

Certainly not by me.

T

Originally posted by jbondoWith no offense intended toward you, I just honestly would like to know.

Understood. You do not know me from Adam.

i live in monroe cty pa not far from where this happened and saw it on the news a few days ago. i have lived here for 37 years (born and raised) and am great friends with the sheriff of this county. i am a gun nut and have a ccw and have for years
now the laws that have been explained to me are as follows-
1- yes you can open carry a firearm AS LONG IT IS NOT LOADED. even a police officer is not allowed to open carry a firearm unless they are in uniform or in time of emergency
2- to carry a LOADED firearm you must have a ccw or sportmens permit and the latter may only be carried loaded while in the lawful act of hunting fishing or trapping(not in a vehicle or safety zones) and in both cases they MUST be concealed
3- even with a ccw permit it only pertains to handguns (any gun with a barrel less than 16") so rifles and shotguns may not be carried loaded at anytime unless hunting or trapping legally even if you have a ccw. it is even illegal to lean a loaded gun against a vehicle.
4- pa changed the law back in the 90's and with a ccw you may carry any place in pa(even cities of the 1st class) with the exception of federal buildings, courthouses(which must have a place where you can check your pistol in) and schools- with the exception of "for learning purposes and other lawful purposes". the only other places you can't is where it is EXPLICITLY AND CONSPICUOSLY posted against carrying a firearm.
5- also when carrying or transporting any fire arm (without apermit) the firearm and ammunition MAY NOT be in the same carrying case. for example when i put my 30/06 in the case to go hunting i AMNOT allowed to have the ammo in that case with it.
now my questions are:
a) why carry a firearm if not loaded anyway? kind of defeats the purpose unless you are just trying to act tough and
b) why carry it open because all you are doing is asking for trouble? and apparently that is what happened

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
i live in monroe cty pa not far from where this happened and saw it on the news a few days ago. i have lived here for 37 years (born and raised) and am great friends with the sheriff of this county. i am a gun nut and have a ccw and have for years
now the laws that have been explained to me are as follows-

I will answer in order. Your Q's are in Blue Italics
I broke the reply into two posts since it exceeds the maximum character limit per post.

1- yes you can open carry a firearm AS LONG IT IS NOT LOADED. even a police officer is not allowed to open carry a firearm unless they are in uniform or in time of emergency

No such law(s).
In Pennsylvania, persons 18 years of age and older whom are not prohibited bylaw from owning firearms may openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles*, cities of the first class** (Philadelphia) and where prohibited specifically by statute.Ref.: Title 18, ch.61, Subchapter A. Uniform Firearms Act & Commonwealth v. Ortiz

2- to carry a LOADED firearm you must have a ccw or sportmens permit and the latter may only be carried loaded while in the lawful act of hunting fishing or trapping(not in a vehicle or safety zones) and in both cases they MUST be concealed

No. As mentioned above, no License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) is neded to carry "loaded".
A LTCF is required to carry:
1) Concealed, when not on your property or place of business. (IE: in public)
2) Concealed or Open in a city of the first class (Philadelphia)
3) In a vehicle
4) CC or OC during a declared state of emergency.

There is NO duty to conceal your firearm with a LTCF
ref: 18PACS§6109


3- even with a ccw permit it only pertains to handguns (any gun with a barrel less than 16") so rifles and shotguns may not be carried loaded at anytime unless hunting or trapping legally even if you have a ccw. it is even illegal to lean a loaded gun against a vehicle.

LTCF's are for the purpose of carrying "firearms" as defined by §6102 of the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) Essentially handguns and NFA registered short barreled rifles (SBR's) and short barreled shotguns (SBS's)

Long guns can not be loaded while in a vehicle. 18PACS §6106.1 Long guns CAN be loaded at any other place except places off limits to firearms.


4- pa changed the law back in the 90's and with a ccw you may carry any place in pa(even cities of the 1st class) with the exception of federal buildings, courthouses(which must have a place where you can check your pistol in) and schools- with the exception of "for learning purposes and other lawful purposes". the only other places you can't is where it is EXPLICITLY AND CONSPICUOSLY posted against carrying a firearm.

All correct except that part about the signs. Signs carry NO legal weight in PA. On private property you must be notified directly by the owner or owner agent that you can not do _X_. If you fail to comply or fail to comply when asked to leave you could be cited for trespass.
Again, carrying CC or OC on property that is posted against firearms is NOT illegal.

5- also when carrying or transporting any fire arm (without apermit) the firearm and ammunition MAY NOT be in the same carrying case. for example when i put my 30/06 in the case to go hunting i AMNOT allowed to have the ammo in that case with it.

Correct. The statute reads "separate container".

.....To be continued in next post......

.

[edit on 17-5-2008 by Pa. Patriot]

...Continued from above post....

a) why carry a firearm if not loaded anyway? kind of defeats the purpose unless you are just trying to act tough and

As above, "loaded" OC is legal so the question is hopefully negated.

b) why carry it open because all you are doing is asking for trouble? and apparently that is what happened
OC is not asking for trouble. OC is a form of carry that has advantages and disadvantages. Understanding these will help you choose, for yourself, about which mode you wish to carry.
The "Concealed and Open Carry" forum at PAFOA is a good place to read a lot about cc, oc, cc vs oc, and many other related topics.
www.pafoa.org...

Here is a good read on OC vs. CC:
paopencarry.org...

A good site for info on OC in PA is paopencarry.org authored by yours truly It includes info, statutes, links and even a Q&A section.

Lastly, a very informative and handy document (flyer) regarding your PA gun rights (OC, CC, transfer, transport, etc) can be downloaded here:
paopencarry.org...

I hope this post addressed your questions, feel free to join the discussions on PAFOA.org regarding OC/CC etc.

Rich

reply to post by Pa. Patriot


ok i'll eat my humble pie. i have been very misinformed by many friends who are cops. or i interpreted the laws the wrong way. maybe that is what the cops did to them. ty for the enlightenment. as for me i just like to mind mine own business and only carry for protection since crime is bad around here. i just never flaunt it and very few people do know i carry my 45 everywhere and that is how i want it

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
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.... i just never flaunt it and very few people do know i carry my 45 everywhere and that is how i want it

OC is not flaunting. It's just another mode of carry. I don't flaunt or show off my piece, I simply do not always "hide" it.

OC, like CC, is a personal choice. No is suggesting you must do it. Carry the way you prefer for your reasons.

It is not 'having a chip on your shoulder' or being 'uncooperative' to excercise your rights.

If open carry is permitted in your area and you should not be harassed. Which is exactly what the police were doing here.

Its amazing to hear the give up your guns rant on a board that has the content this one has. Think on these for a bit ...

- A single armed citizen on the 9-11 planes whould have ended the problem after the first plane hit the WTC.

- Isnt the NWO trying to take over the U.S./world? I'm guessing that would be much easier if citizens were unarmed.

- When the Masons/Illuminati do come out to try to take over the U.S. an armed population would be detrimental to their efforts.

- Wonder what would happen if a grey/reptilian/whatever tried to abduct someone who could defend themselves, I doubt an alien would be impervious to gun fire.

We have people stretching the boundaries of believability searching for conspiracies and they are blind to the very acts that are trying to take our right to defend ourselves.

Deny Ignorance, right?

Here in Connecticut. Concealed carry means just that. The firearm cannot even be outlined because if someone sees it and calls the local constabulary, you have a real chance of loosing your permit. In this state if you see someone chasing another and you shoot the chaser to "save the day", your going to jail. Some LEO was chasing a young girl swearing and threatening her without showing his badge or yelling he was a LEO. He was shot by a good sumaritan and that poor guy went to jail. So they made it law. I don't call this state "The Peoples Republic Of Connecticut" for nothing!!

Zindo

reply to post by jbondo

"Carrying a gun doesn't mean you are trained or prepared to make the right choices in life and death situations. I'm not saying you would be dangerous but IMO a lot of average joe's are."
The law doesn't say you need to be trained to exercise your right to carry a gun. Also your statement of that average joe being dangerous is not only pretentious, but statistically unverifiable. If you look across counties in the US of towns/cities that allow (or even mandate) the average joe to carry guns, you'll see statistically lower violent crime rates. Although it may be counter-intuitive to many, it's reasonable to see why.

If you adjust your preconceived notion, from where the average joe with a gun is dangerous, to where the rare nutcase/criminal with a gun is dangerous. From the former perspective, you believe you need to control the rights of citizens to have guns. And from the latter perspective, you believe you need to liberate those rights.

"Although I could go on and correct where you twisted my words, I've said my peace and have no intent on changing your mind."
This last statement is what disturbs me the most. I feel like my argument may be futilie if you won't even consider the possibility that you're on the wrong side of this issue. I grew up anti-gun, so I sympathize with your view, however I appeal to your ability to reason.

While I am discussing the matter about whether or not guns increase or reduce crime, the 2nd Amendment is much broader and fundamental in maintaining the freedoms of individuals from the suppression of tyranny (an idea which most of us luckily have no direct experience with). The people who founded this Amendment did so at a time where they just came out of a violent war where they all experienced personal losses of the lives of loved one often from a gun. However they realized that the right to self-defense was a natural right, and luckily for us the founding fathers clearly stated it in the Constitution.

Whether it's some ignorant police officer or politician, it's unfortunate that we have to constantly remind people of something so clearly written. You are allowed to speak freely, worship freely, and protect yourself with arms. You have these rights not because they were given to you, but because they are self-evident, and they shall not be infringed.

Arm yourself not only with your gun, but also with your mind.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Apparently you didn't read the entire thread. I am not "anti gun" nor do I have any problem with law abiding citizens having them. I have them and to repeat myself, grew up in a "gun" county in PA.

I support concealed carry over open where it concerns handguns. I also have no problem with gun racks in vehicles.

"Report shows confusion on gun dispute"

Police officers and prosecutors seemed either unfamiliar with the law or unprepared May 9 with how to handle a dozen customers at Old Country Buffet who were openly carrying guns, a Dickson City police report shows.

‘Mistakes’ alleged

An attorney representing Mr. Banks said law enforcement made “major mistakes” throughout the entire incident at the Dickson City restaurant.

Link







AlBeMeT

i am anonymous only becasue for some reason ats tells me my password is wrong and won't give me a way to retrieve it even tho i have the password saved in my email. usual name is bigfoot1212.
anyway- carrying guns was made in the 2nd amendment to control the tyrrany of the gov't i believe. if it wan't such an important issue why was it the 2nd one after freedom of speech which is also being taken from us? founding fathers must have known something! i am a very law abiding citizen but some of this # is becoming towards tyrany and that is why we need to excercise our rights as citizens. WE control the gov't- they don't control us- but apparently they don't think so and it is time for us to change that.
and btw don't ever display a gun in a gun rack in nj or ny

reply to post by Coshy


Dude, you misunderstood everything I said. Furthermore it wasn't directed at you.
________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________
PA Patriot said this:

"loaded" OC is legal.

I saw no such wording stated anywhere under PA law. I'm not disputing it but I am questioning it. The definition of Open Carry is as follows: the act of publicly carrying a firearm in plain sight.

Why do the PA laws say everything but that. In fact it would seem that they purposely keep the words loaded and the phrase open carry apart.

Can anyone find an official PA document that states, "loaded open carry is lawful?"

reply to post by jbondo



this is where you show your true colors. Our rights do not come from the Govt. They are derived from our creator. There needs to be no law to allow citizens any right. Only infringements can be relegated. It is assumed that if there is no law against any act said act is legal.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


Dude, what are you talking about? True colors? I'd say that you have no idea as to who I am. Don't assume me to be on a "side" because I choose to hold open discussion and try to get educated on all the facts.

Basically what I see in your words is anarchy and I very much doubt that you've even taken the time to read this thread.

Originally posted by jbondo

I saw no such wording stated anywhere under PA law. I'm not disputing it but I am questioning it. The definition of Open Carry is as follows: the act of publicly carrying a firearm in plain sight.

Why do the PA laws say everything but that. In fact it would seem that they purposely keep the words loaded and the phrase open carry apart.

Can anyone find an official PA document that states, "loaded open carry is lawful?"

It is my understanding in PA if there is no law in the books it is in fact legal.
Like a cop can't stop you for walking down the street because there is no law saying he can.
Hope you understand what I'm getting at.

AlBeMeT