Fighting for our freedom? Haha yea right

So I got into it today with a member of the Navy who had a bumper sticker on his car that said "I fought in Iraq for your freedoms you liberal [snip]".

Now, I am far from a liberal, and I served 6 years in a highly decorated combat division in the U.S. Army. I am one of those people who enjoys conflict/debate/argument, so I figured there was no better time to indulge myself than right there in that parking lot.

Situation: I was behind this car at a light and coincidentally he pulled into the same store I was going to. While the wife ran inside, I asked him what threat to our freedom Iraq posed. He said terrorism.

I asked him specifically what brand of terrorism, and he said WMD's. I then asked about the lack of WMD's being found, and he proceed to call me an "anti war liberal".

I informed him I was actually a true conservative (not a republican), and I had also served. He said I was brainwashed and walked away.

I sat there for a moment in disbelief at what had just happened. These are the types of morons who are serving today? I separated from the Army in early 2001, so it wasnt that long ago, but at no time during my service was I ever under the impression I was "protecting the freedoms of Americans". I fully realized what the military was used for (corporate force), but I chose to join anyways because it gave me the chance to see some parts of the world, and to blow up some things I never would have gotten the chance to if I didnt enlist.

Is this "protecting your freedoms" mindset prevalent in todays military? Whatever happen to upholding the oath each and every one of us took?



Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 11-5-2008 by elevatedone]

I doubt today many soldiers would say they arent there to protect our freedom,but many i talk with state they dont want to be there but the "job" has to be done.I dont know much about politics but they are there to finish what our government started.Would i join the military right now?Nope.Why?I dont think we should be over there either.If there was WMD they never gave enough proof,at least that im aware of.Anyways i hope they all return back soon and i do thank them.

I was perusing the ATS threads and saw you'd done one, so I thought I would see what you had to say. I know you and I aren't getting along on the Blackwater thread I started but you seem to understand the concept behind what I was trying to do in bringing the level of attention to the public about the hypocrisy going on overseas in regards to Iraq.

I just do not understand if you see the military the way you do, then why you don't see Blackwater or any of their competitors the same exact way. Corporate paid monkeys beating on their chests and holding out their palms for money. More so than the soldiers that are there because they should be, within the Rules of Engagement. If you don't believe the WMD's were there to begin with then you and I see eye to eye on that at least.

Here's a website link to a shirt you might like.

Cafe Press - WMD

Obviously there were no longer any WMD's in Iraq. Saddam had to maintain that idea though in order to keep Iran in check.

I am about truth. Pile after pile of lies have been told about Blackwater, that is why I defend them. I couldn't care less about the mission, or objective of it, I was there to make money. If keeping some self important government ahole alive was what it took for me to get my $800 per diem, then so be it. That attitude is prevalent, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to make a good living for yourself. The money I earned while working for them gave me the opportunity to start my own small business and provide a pretty decent life for the wife and my infant son. Nothing wrong with that either.

Regardless of the consequences, I defend truth at any and all means. If the government acts out of line, I will be the first one to speak up, no matter the consequences. I have criticized Blackwater when it was merited, but the abundance of just plain BS about them floating around today is the result of agenda driven people such as Scahill.

reply to post by slackerwire

---

There are social benefits to being a soldier, and this is the main reason i haven't joined the army.

I don't want to be serving alongside someone who is more interested in getting to the end of his service than doing a good job, after all.

There are those in the army, just like any sector of work nowadays, who seek to profit from their employment in non-financial terms - they call it the "perks" of the job, and in this case it means that they can go about saying they are in the army and impressing people with tales of glorious battle (obviously not in that way, but you get the idea).

Also, it's known that a great many security firms employ people who have left the army, and it may be that such individuals are looking to take up arms alongside fellow mercenary interests.

It is a problem of our society, not that of the army - The career soldiers know what it's all about, Duty to your country and all that, but these others aren't interested one bit in their country insofar as where their pay is coming from.

It's one of the reasons why many living conditions in the military (at least, in the U.K) are so poor - a lot of the sergeants and higher ups are simply too damn proud of their duty to ask for cash.

To fight and die alongside a man who is fighting for his country is more than enough reason to join the army.

To fight and die alongside a man who is fighting for his own damn self-gratification and glorification is the closest thing i can imagine to hell that doesn't involve my body being violated in some way.

The reason your clear-headed friend there called you brainwashed is because you said something he couldn't come back at you with - he isn't stupid and he isn't impressionable.

He's just a douche.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

reply to post by slackerwire

---

So it would be safe to say then, that you blame the government for allowing Blackwater to operate, but defend Blackwater so long as they are allowed to operate? Sort of like support the troops, not the mission?

EDIT to add:

My brother is on his third tour, this time as a contractor. I think he sees himself as a flag-waver to some extent. He comes from a left-leaning family, but married into the right and seems to do well with it. But in the end, it really comes down to the paycheck for him too.



[edit on 5/11/0808 by jackinthebox]

In a nutshell, my position is this:

If it weren't for the U.S. government, there wouldn't be a need for BWUSA.

People are placing blame on the wrong entity.

The government poses more of a threat to Americans than any alleged "terrorists" do.

Well said there slackerwire. The US Government for anyone who doesn't know has to shift and sway with the political breezes based on the perceptions on the public. This happens and Foreign Policy is changed and ends up leaving people caught within the cracks of the policy-shift and then things happen which makes it all FUBAR for someone, usually us citizens.

As much as i'd hate to get involved in this type of discussion, i feel it's nessecary to put forward a point to do with Blackwater's PR agents, Namely Burson-Marsteller.

Note; i'm not picking on Blackwater here, but the people who do it's PR.

I'll begin with the introduction, The guy who runs Burson-Marsteller, a chap by the name of Mark Penn, is also Hillary Clinton's top consultant.

This could point to a few possibilities in itself, and the more paranoid aspect of my mind is currently screaming "Political manipulation! Political Manipulation!" from inside it's box.

Other possibilities include that which is obvious (or non-threatening) - That our friend Mark Penn is merely interested in advancing his career, and other less obvious ones like Mark Penn and Hillary having an affair of sorts.

Of course, that's just me being fantastical.

Burson-Marsteller also has international interests, from the PR of the Argentine Proceso de Reorganización Nacional (That's "The Military Junta" to you and me) to influencing the technological progress of Singapore.

The actions of this PR firm could be compared to that of another candidate's top aide, that of a group called DCI - which has ties to one or two aides to John McCain.

An article detailing DCI's involvement with the Burmese Junta.

If you really want to find out what's really going wrong with the world - find out who exactly it is that's encouraging the competition.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

Slackerwire, I never thought I'd star one of your posts, but I have to agree. Many of the soldiers I come into contact with these days (it's a lot, but we've already discussed it) simply disgust me with their ideals and paradigms. I think it's funny that this guy said you're the one that was brainwashed. I've been told more than once that "If we weren't getting blown up by road side bombs in Iraq, you and your family would be getting blown up by road side bombs here...". Then there's the deplorable members who brag about atrocities they have committed in Iraq. One fellow in particular, told me with a grin, about when they forced an Iraqi, who was both mentally and physically handicapped, to jump off his own roof. Lying motionless on the street, he was then shot and killed under the cover of an "illegal weapon found in the house".

I know war is hell, but too many of our youthful service members are taking pride and joy in things they should not.

The war in Iraq is bull#, its a money war and it has accomplished nothing! Bush fills these people's heads with lies telling them it is their patriotic duty to fight a war for him for a few drops of oil sure they overthrew and had the evil dictator killed but the people of Iraq do not I REPEAT DO NOT want us there anymore why do you think they keep resisting our democratic influence? to them we are the devil himself and nothing we propose to them matters they wanted hussein out and they got what they wanted and then they wanted to resume their lives

which for some reason we cant seem to understand that and let them go back to their lives instead we walk the streets of Iraq influencing a type of government that they care nothing for.

Sometimes I think we are all brainwashed. The governments and the people. Whoever did it was goooood.

We all know who will go down as making the stupidest call in modern history of warfare.