reply to post by Witness2008
The simple version is that in different locations the conditions are going to be different. Even directly above you. The weather conditions at FL430
may be able to allow a contrail to persist while the drier, warmer conditions at FL400 may not.
Your car exhaust also has warm water vapor -- it produces a similar condition in cold weather. If it were extremely cold, your car in theory could
produce a (smaller) persisting condensation trail.
This video shows how warm water vapor reacts with extremely cold weather. Note that the local conditions are not as cold (and may not be as humid) as
conditions necessary for a contrail to persist, but show the process fairly well.
youtube.com...
Chem-trail Plane Photographed on the ground?, page 8
privacy
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 09:34 PM by Clearskies
I keep seeing the argument against chemtrails that there are easier ways.
All of which are much more dangerous for the perpetrator.
Water is tested by individuals, as well as counties and cities,etc...so, if there were deaths it would become a quick 'smoking gun'.
The same with food.
To round up people and shoot them would leave very few friends, as even the most evil types have workers with families!
It HAS to be covert.
If these contrails are being blown 1,000 of kilometers away, how can they remain in the sky, intact, for so long???
Perhaps heavy metals fall faster than light aluminum?
Maybe zyclon B is potent enough to eventually affect life everywhere?
If a plane can spray one thing, it can spray another.
All of which are much more dangerous for the perpetrator.
Water is tested by individuals, as well as counties and cities,etc...so, if there were deaths it would become a quick 'smoking gun'.
The same with food.
To round up people and shoot them would leave very few friends, as even the most evil types have workers with families!
It HAS to be covert.
If these contrails are being blown 1,000 of kilometers away, how can they remain in the sky, intact, for so long???
Perhaps heavy metals fall faster than light aluminum?
Maybe zyclon B is potent enough to eventually affect life everywhere?
If a plane can spray one thing, it can spray another.
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 10:31 PM by Witness2008
reply to post by firepilot
I don't suppose you noticed that big fat question mark at the end of this threads title? If I saw a car leaving the kind of pollution behind it as do these planes I would want it off the road. Whether man made exhaust mixing with water vapor or metal oxides it's a bad pollution problem that blocks out the sun and drags along with it people that ridicule those that are concerned with what they see. I'm sick of seeing the sky I live under looking like this dbarkertv.com...
I don't suppose you noticed that big fat question mark at the end of this threads title? If I saw a car leaving the kind of pollution behind it as do these planes I would want it off the road. Whether man made exhaust mixing with water vapor or metal oxides it's a bad pollution problem that blocks out the sun and drags along with it people that ridicule those that are concerned with what they see. I'm sick of seeing the sky I live under looking like this dbarkertv.com...
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 10:40 PM by weedwhacker
reply to post by Witness2008
Witness, I sat through that 'yewtoobe' video you conveniently provided.
The poster's assertions are incorrect, of course...mistaking normal cirrus clouds with contrails. The time-lapse is brilliant, however, since it conclusively shows how none of that frozen H2O falls down on the cameraman, it just blows along in the upper level winds.
Spraying something in aerosol format in order to do damage to a person usually requires an enclosed space. There are thousands of cubic kilometers of air above your head, and is almost always in constant motion.
Mean Sea Level Pressure provides a weight of atmosphere, from above you, of 10.2 tonnes per square meter. One 'tonnne' (metric ton) equals 1000Kg.
On a smaller scale, a column of air one inch square will 'weigh' 14.7 pounds. 'Standard Atmosphere', at MSL.
Point is, there is a lot of air, there...and, with out a wall or other barrier to confine it, any alleged 'chemicals' would become very rapidly diluted.
Get one of those bathroom air freshener sprays, and spray indoors, then take it outside, and spray again. Do you have a swimming pool? Go adjust the ph of your 20,000 gallon pool with a gallon of muriatic acid, then go find a small lake (DON'T REALLY DO THIS! ... just an analogy) and say, you put a gallon of acid in it, and then measure its ph.
Finally, with your logical, reasoning thinking caps on....ask yourself HOW any alleged chemicals are stored, in passenger airplanes where every weight is accounted for. Then, the next usual response is 'the military'...maybe we're not really spending $12B a month in Iraq, it's all being spent here in the USA!
ps...almost forgot...I queried the yewtoobe guy to ask if he lives near an Air Force base, or any base...because, when I lived in LA, we would often see rocket launches from Vandenburg AFB, nearby, and those rocket trails usually had a 'curli-cue' look as they transitted the various altitudes and wind shear conditions....
Or, it was just a case of a really bad sky-writer....I think he was trying to write "Surrender Dorothy"....
WW
Witness, I sat through that 'yewtoobe' video you conveniently provided.
The poster's assertions are incorrect, of course...mistaking normal cirrus clouds with contrails. The time-lapse is brilliant, however, since it conclusively shows how none of that frozen H2O falls down on the cameraman, it just blows along in the upper level winds.
Spraying something in aerosol format in order to do damage to a person usually requires an enclosed space. There are thousands of cubic kilometers of air above your head, and is almost always in constant motion.
Mean Sea Level Pressure provides a weight of atmosphere, from above you, of 10.2 tonnes per square meter. One 'tonnne' (metric ton) equals 1000Kg.
On a smaller scale, a column of air one inch square will 'weigh' 14.7 pounds. 'Standard Atmosphere', at MSL.
Point is, there is a lot of air, there...and, with out a wall or other barrier to confine it, any alleged 'chemicals' would become very rapidly diluted.
Get one of those bathroom air freshener sprays, and spray indoors, then take it outside, and spray again. Do you have a swimming pool? Go adjust the ph of your 20,000 gallon pool with a gallon of muriatic acid, then go find a small lake (DON'T REALLY DO THIS! ... just an analogy) and say, you put a gallon of acid in it, and then measure its ph.
Finally, with your logical, reasoning thinking caps on....ask yourself HOW any alleged chemicals are stored, in passenger airplanes where every weight is accounted for. Then, the next usual response is 'the military'...maybe we're not really spending $12B a month in Iraq, it's all being spent here in the USA!
ps...almost forgot...I queried the yewtoobe guy to ask if he lives near an Air Force base, or any base...because, when I lived in LA, we would often see rocket launches from Vandenburg AFB, nearby, and those rocket trails usually had a 'curli-cue' look as they transitted the various altitudes and wind shear conditions....
Or, it was just a case of a really bad sky-writer....I think he was trying to write "Surrender Dorothy"....
WW
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 10:52 PM by BlasteR
reply to post by _Del_
Here in Alaska when it gets 40-50 below you can take a cup of hot boiling water, toss it in the air, and nearly none of it will hit the ground. it all instantaneously turns to vapor when it contacts the extremely cold extremely dry environment we have herein winter.. Same concept I guess.
Here in Alaska when it gets 40-50 below you can take a cup of hot boiling water, toss it in the air, and nearly none of it will hit the ground. it all instantaneously turns to vapor when it contacts the extremely cold extremely dry environment we have herein winter.. Same concept I guess.
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 11:47 PM by Witness2008
reply to post by weedwhacker
What? Mistaking normal cirrus clouds with contrails? He was making a comparrison of contrail and chemtrail. I saw no signs of time lapse.
I would not think that any frozen H2O would fall on the cameraman given the altitude and the short time he was filming.
Most pollutants have an accumulative effect so your anology should have greater measurments of muriatic acid lets say 20 gallons a day for a week... it would be proportional to this www.greatdreams.com...
What? Mistaking normal cirrus clouds with contrails? He was making a comparrison of contrail and chemtrail. I saw no signs of time lapse.
I would not think that any frozen H2O would fall on the cameraman given the altitude and the short time he was filming.
Most pollutants have an accumulative effect so your anology should have greater measurments of muriatic acid lets say 20 gallons a day for a week... it would be proportional to this www.greatdreams.com...
reply posted on 12-5-2008 @ 11:57 PM by weedwhacker
reply to post by Witness2008
Maybe we didn't see the same video...he even mentions at one point it's at 20X speed...
What i am trying to get people to see is, from the video, you see jets flying, with a contrail forming, and then dissipating. The other stuff in the is something we commonly refer to as 'clouds'.
The video cred is lost, since...though it has an alleged date of filming, there is no mention as to location. For all we know it was edited together from different times and locations....standards on yewtoobe to measure to ATS standards, so I keep a shaker of salt handy...
WW
Maybe we didn't see the same video...he even mentions at one point it's at 20X speed...
What i am trying to get people to see is, from the video, you see jets flying, with a contrail forming, and then dissipating. The other stuff in the is something we commonly refer to as 'clouds'.
The video cred is lost, since...though it has an alleged date of filming, there is no mention as to location. For all we know it was edited together from different times and locations....standards on yewtoobe to measure to ATS standards, so I keep a shaker of salt handy...
WW
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 01:23 AM by firepilot
Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by firepilot
I don't suppose you noticed that big fat question mark at the end of this threads title? If I saw a car leaving the kind of pollution behind it as do these planes I would want it off the road. Whether man made exhaust mixing with water vapor or metal oxides it's a bad pollution problem that blocks out the sun and drags along with it people that ridicule those that are concerned with what they see. I'm sick of seeing the sky I live under looking like this dbarkertv.com...
What is it about natural and aviation cirrus clouds that scare you?
Hey I get tired of chemmies claiming pilots are out to murder off their own country, and spraying every known virus and disease known to man too.
I love all these claims that airliners are up there dumping metal out, thats so comical as to be ridiculous. Chemmies cant decide whether it is somehow sprayed out, or that the engines are turned into giant cuisinarts and metals and chemicals are somehow dumped into them.
Lets not forget, there is ZERO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of any of these claims of metal and chemicals being dumped out of airliners and refueling tankers.
Chemtrails is basically a bit catch all term for people that get scared by aircraft. There is not a single coherent idea, and I have seen chemmies get into arguments on chemtrail boards over whose idea was more correct. Heck some thing it is reptilians flying UFOs, or planes dumping out oil, or AIDS and SARS, or military fighters, or small general aviation planes.
And every time they put up their vaunted proof of a photography of a plane on the ground, its NEVER what they claim it is.
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 06:52 AM by waynos
reply to post by me
since posting my last reply I see that the page linked to has now been changed with Ted himself admitting it is just a tanker.
Is this because the transparency of his claim has just been made so obvious that he needed to backtrack to avoid losing all credibility?
he writes;
Really? How much research went into NOT knowing what the equipment on a KC-135 looks like? a google search takes seconds.
But aerial tanking is not one of those subjects.
I bet he doesn't.
More bollocks and smokescreen, just look at the many new extremely high quality images that appear on Airliners.net EVERY day.
Did he? Then why are they so poor? the site I just mentioned has 'HD' quality images of every plane you can think of, just look at the links I provided in earlier posts. if you click on those photos you get an ever higher res version of the picture to analyse in tiny detail.
No stranger than RAF tankers in Nevada or USAF tankers in the UK. Its called 'interoperability'. Again creating suspicion without foundation.
No its not. even the old RAF Victor tankers from 40 years ago had this arrangement. It has always been the standard design for pods because the windmilling effect provides free energy, like a cycle dynamo.
So what. The rest of this passage then mentions what it 'might' be. Pure speculative bollocks. If he DID actually do a bit of research he would find its true purpose in less than five minutes, he might even want to read my post on it
since posting my last reply I see that the page linked to has now been changed with Ted himself admitting it is just a tanker.
Is this because the transparency of his claim has just been made so obvious that he needed to backtrack to avoid losing all credibility?
he writes;
It has always been my policy to research subjects I write about before writing about them
Really? How much research went into NOT knowing what the equipment on a KC-135 looks like? a google search takes seconds.
Many subjects have little information available
But aerial tanking is not one of those subjects.
The person who sent me the images is a pilot and does not want his name divulged
I bet he doesn't.
Since access to all airports and tarmacs since 2001 is now highly restricted, no one can simply walk up to a plane and take photos.
More bollocks and smokescreen, just look at the many new extremely high quality images that appear on Airliners.net EVERY day.
The pilot had to have clearance to be on the tarmac at ground level to take these photos
Did he? Then why are they so poor? the site I just mentioned has 'HD' quality images of every plane you can think of, just look at the links I provided in earlier posts. if you click on those photos you get an ever higher res version of the picture to analyse in tiny detail.
The fact that the plane has a Bretagne tail emblem from France and was photographed in Quebec, Canada is strange in itself. Why would a tiny principality inFrance go to the trouble of flying a tanker plane to North America? Fuel to operate one of these planes is extremely expensive. And the Canadian government has its own tankers.
No stranger than RAF tankers in Nevada or USAF tankers in the UK. Its called 'interoperability'. Again creating suspicion without foundation.
It is still unknown why a propeller would be mounted on the front of the pod to generate electricity or power a hydraulic pump.
No its not. even the old RAF Victor tankers from 40 years ago had this arrangement. It has always been the standard design for pods because the windmilling effect provides free energy, like a cycle dynamo.
Finally, there is the funnel-shaped cone ("B" in Fig. 4) which terminates with a rear-ward protruding tube visible in the center of the engine exhaust.
So what. The rest of this passage then mentions what it 'might' be. Pure speculative bollocks. If he DID actually do a bit of research he would find its true purpose in less than five minutes, he might even want to read my post on it
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 07:01 AM by neformore
reply to post by Witness2008
The planes in that video will have at least a mile seperation in horizontal distance, and may have the same seperation in height.
A mile is enough - especially height wise - in order for one to leave a persistent contrail and the other not to.
The planes in that video will have at least a mile seperation in horizontal distance, and may have the same seperation in height.
A mile is enough - especially height wise - in order for one to leave a persistent contrail and the other not to.
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 07:30 AM by Essan
reply to post by waynos
Yes, good to see Twietmeyer quickly retract most of his comments.
Incidently, it's not a "Bretagne tail emblem" from a "tiny principality in France" - it's the tail emblem of the Groupe de Ravitaillement en Vol 00.093 "Bretagne": a French Air Force squadron!
Did take me a good 10 minutes to check that out though.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by Essan]
Yes, good to see Twietmeyer quickly retract most of his comments.
Incidently, it's not a "Bretagne tail emblem" from a "tiny principality in France" - it's the tail emblem of the Groupe de Ravitaillement en Vol 00.093 "Bretagne": a French Air Force squadron!
Did take me a good 10 minutes to check that out though.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by Essan]
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 07:48 AM by cutbothways
reply to post by Essan
Could you please explain to me the
minimum temperature, humidity levels
required to support contrail formation?
And what chart do you use, to come up
with your numbers?
Could you please explain to me the
minimum temperature, humidity levels
required to support contrail formation?
And what chart do you use, to come up
with your numbers?
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 09:38 AM by Essan
reply to post by cutbothways
Not sure the relevance to your question in this particular thread
But in any case, I know you;ve already seen the
Appleman Chart and know that whether a contrail forms depends
on temperature and RH. The lower the temp, the lower the RH needs to be. But at -35c RH needs to be around 100% so it's unlikely contrails will
form above that temperature.
Of course, one also need to know the altitude at which a given aircraft is flying and then, from radiosonde data, the temperature and RH at that altitude in order to determine whether a contrail will occur and/or persist.
Since pockets of air at different temperature and humidity occur 6 miles high just as they do at sea level, one should really release a weather balloon at your specific location in order to obtain the exact data to determine whether a contrail will form overhead. And do so every hour to take into accounting any air movement.
But, of course, that's not normally practical, so one can only usually make a rough estimate for the likelihood of contrail formation, especially when in borderline situations. This is something which even computer model simulation struggle to do well at - simply because it's so difficult to model such changes in atmospheric conditions. Though I understand the military are keen to improvement such modelling for obvious reasons!
Not sure the relevance to your question in this particular thread
But in any case, I know you;ve already seen the
Appleman Chart and know that whether a contrail forms depends
on temperature and RH. The lower the temp, the lower the RH needs to be. But at -35c RH needs to be around 100% so it's unlikely contrails will
form above that temperature. Of course, one also need to know the altitude at which a given aircraft is flying and then, from radiosonde data, the temperature and RH at that altitude in order to determine whether a contrail will occur and/or persist.
Since pockets of air at different temperature and humidity occur 6 miles high just as they do at sea level, one should really release a weather balloon at your specific location in order to obtain the exact data to determine whether a contrail will form overhead. And do so every hour to take into accounting any air movement.
But, of course, that's not normally practical, so one can only usually make a rough estimate for the likelihood of contrail formation, especially when in borderline situations. This is something which even computer model simulation struggle to do well at - simply because it's so difficult to model such changes in atmospheric conditions. Though I understand the military are keen to improvement such modelling for obvious reasons!
reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 09:41 AM by QBSneak000
reply to post by pikypiky
Ok, i see where you're coming from and in your words..."depending on the case" well if they were trying to sell a product for $$ then yes I would agree but a lot of the scientific evidence provided by some of the posters in this thread trying to disprove chemtrails is good science. Im starting to think that it wouldn't matter what credible scientific evidence is provided to disprove chemtrails, theres a few that would only see what they want to see.
Yes, I could say that I am an alien from planet zubar but in order for me to be taken seriously I would HAVE to provide credible evidence scientific or not, proving my claim. All I ever see here at ATS when someone posts anything is "PROOF...SHOW US IRREFUTABLE PROOF" which, in my opinion, so far the prochemtrails camp has not provided.
"Diseases caused by chemtrails" ???? what diseases? wheres the science that proves this? or is it just a claim with no basis on truth/fact?
This is in no way a personal attack. Your posts are just as valued to me as they are to everyone else. Im just playing devils advocate.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by QBSneak000]
testimonies should not and is not evidence in and by itself or reasonably admissible, depending on the case.
Ok, i see where you're coming from and in your words..."depending on the case" well if they were trying to sell a product for $$ then yes I would agree but a lot of the scientific evidence provided by some of the posters in this thread trying to disprove chemtrails is good science. Im starting to think that it wouldn't matter what credible scientific evidence is provided to disprove chemtrails, theres a few that would only see what they want to see.
Nothing is too fantastic a claim, if given a chance. And people go to whatever and wherever appeals to their senses. If the photos look like chemtrail planes on the ground and there is some effort to correlate diseases caused by 'chemtrails', so be it.
Yes, I could say that I am an alien from planet zubar but in order for me to be taken seriously I would HAVE to provide credible evidence scientific or not, proving my claim. All I ever see here at ATS when someone posts anything is "PROOF...SHOW US IRREFUTABLE PROOF" which, in my opinion, so far the prochemtrails camp has not provided.
"Diseases caused by chemtrails" ???? what diseases? wheres the science that proves this? or is it just a claim with no basis on truth/fact?
This is in no way a personal attack. Your posts are just as valued to me as they are to everyone else. Im just playing devils advocate.
[edit on 13-5-2008 by QBSneak000]
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